Ok I'll try to explain and get back on topic in the same message.. That thing about the five whatsits is basically like the bible saying keeping the eye simple, it's about desire and covetousness. But in talking about the eye, it kind of points back to this whole business of observing or "witnessing" .. Ok, we're back?
Introspection
JoinedPosts by Introspection
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The Third Alternative
by Siddhashunyata inalternative 1 ---believe.
alternative 2---don't believe.
alternative 3 ---go beyond believe and don't believe .
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The Third Alternative
by Siddhashunyata inalternative 1 ---believe.
alternative 2---don't believe.
alternative 3 ---go beyond believe and don't believe .
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Introspection
Hi Siegswife,
Thanks for posting those.. I gotta say though, Stephen Mitchell takes some great liberties in his "translation." (by the way, I know this is a commonly used rendering so I'm not criticizing your choice, I'm posting this for everyone's benefit) I read that he doesn't even know Chinese, he basically pulled from different translations and came up with a paraphrase based on his own understanding. Chapter 46 makes this very clear: In the first part he mentions things like tractors, factories, warheads and so on - things which no doubt didn't exist at the time - and the second part reads this way:
There is no greater illusion than fear,
no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,
no greater misfortune than having an enemy.
Whoever can see through all fear
will always be safe.Well.. That sort of makes sense, but other translations point to greed. For example John Wu's (not the director) read:
There is no calamity like not knowing what is enough.
Anyways, I don't want to take too much time on this but in getting carried away with the tractors and factories and warheads (oh my!) in the first part, he also lost the thought that the same thing can be used for two intents - the original text there being horses can be used for farming or for war. In the big picture of life I suppose it doesn't matter all that much, but he is very much on the opposite in the rendering here because of greed being an aggressive quality, whereas fear is a defensive one.
There is no evil like covetousness.
Only he who knows what is enough will always have enough.Edited by - Introspection on 23 January 2003 23:47:44
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The Third Alternative
by Siddhashunyata inalternative 1 ---believe.
alternative 2---don't believe.
alternative 3 ---go beyond believe and don't believe .
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Introspection
Siddha,
One thing stood out in one of your posts, and that is the common description of witnessing - (that is what they call it, ironic isn't it) this observation without judgement - is like a sense or feeling. You probably know this already, but I like to say if we can take the perspective of awareness itself, then what is aware of the feeling? Anyways, I'm sure you know where I'm going with this.
Perhaps non-analysis can only be practiced. Perhaps like learning to be an an artist that can SEE, non-analysis can be learned with enough practice.
There's actually another aspect to this. It's one thing not to judge and interpret, but there's also the aspect of not resisting or trying to hold on to. Someone who tends to be a thinker may be very analytical, but that resistive factor may not be there. But the thing is that's actually where we get to see how much energy we waste and how much we run in circles chasing our own tail, you can literally feel it then. On the other hand, you might have someone who sits there all day wanting this and that and resisting what they do have in their life, and they haven't given a whole lot of thought to any of it. So I guess you might say there's these two aspects of non-interpretation and non-resistance, though not interpreting is not saying you don't care either - because then you can just go to sleep and not even observe, and again you are not going to the other extreme of clinging instead of resisting, either. By the way, it isn't that there is no analysis - I mean after all we gotta think for a lot of stuff. It's that it's not compartmentalized and separated.
I find it more useful to talk about this stuff using more of a homey, down to earth language. For anyone who may not know, what we're talking about has a lot to do with what they call enlightenment. (oooo, ahhh - the big word) But see, while you're not being dismissive about it, someone who is described as selfless doesn't care enough to be worrying about it in the sense of being really concerned. They don't even care about enlightenment itself, not for you or themselves. I think the difference between someone who gets it and someone who don't is when say a good friend is talking to them about all this stuff, the person who doesn't will just engage them in the abstract, conceptual level which I think we've already seen as not being it. Someone who gets it would more than likely go "Yeah. (smile) Hey, lets go get a drink." (not necessarily alcoholic, but there's no problem if it is) For an enlightened person, there is no separation between thought and action. This doesn't mean they will avoid conceptual stuff as a rule, but it's just that they are not interested in thought by itself. This is why you got these teachers who don't write books right, they might do a little poetry and other people might write down what they've said, but since they're only interested in what's real it's always just a live interaction with people and life, not a matter of formulating theories. No theory ever got anyone to become enlightened, just as people who read books don't necessarily know what the book is talking about. In fact, doesn't a lot of these "spiritual teachers" say they're not really teachers? It's sort of like you want to play this game of being a student, so they gotta play the other role of being a teacher. I was reading a little thing about zen master Suzuki Roshi, and someone asked him once: "Roshi, what's the difference between you and me?" without hesitation he said: "I have students and you don't." Most people are just caught up in the roles they're playing and what they're playing with, but it's cool just to be playing.
Edited by - Introspection on 23 January 2003 22:53:38
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Elders will be here in 10 minutes...pray for me
by Jacqueline inelders will be doing a shepharding call in 10 minutes...why we have not attended meetings in so long.
i want nothing to do with the organization anymore....pray for me that i can keep my strength against them!
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Introspection
You can absolutely keep your strength against them. Actually, I wouldn't put it that way but rather what is in question is whether they can keep up their strength against you. The thing is, when you are honest with yourself and seeing the truth, that requires no effort - reality is what it is. When you are in delusion and fooling yourself like they are, a LOT of effort is required and thus they have to "keep up their strength". So actually, you just have to be yourself and stay honest with yourself, just don't get caught up in their game.
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Message from Sharon Roe and request from me
by seven006 infor those who wrote sharon roe (sister of janet and robert bryant) a few months back and sent your love and support i have a message from sharon.
i just got off the phone with her and she wanted me to pass on her love and thanks to all of you for taking the time to send your messages.
the notes you wrote lifted her spirits and she is now beginning to understand that she is not alone.
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Introspection
There is one each month, I am talking about the Meetup system where people sign up and decide to meet at a certain place:
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JWs vs. Baha'i
by LDH infounded in the mid-nineteenth century, the bahai faith has spread to some 232 nations and territories and is now accepted by more than five million people.. the word bahai means follower of bahaullah.
his name in arabic means the glory of god.
his followers believe that bahaullah's writings are an expression of the holy spirit and are the word of god.
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Introspection
There should be a distinction made between what a certain religious group stands for and the quality or humanity of it's members. In terms of what a group stands for, most often you can point out good things, that's why people think 'ohh, they're just teaching people how to be good, be moral' and all that when they just know a list of what a group believes and fail to see the belief system as a whole. As far as comparing the people are concerned, that gets to be pretty iffy to me because while you can point to specific facts, it can easily become an "Oh, we're better than you" statement, even if it's not meant that way you run the risk of appearing that way. Spiritually speaking, even if you ARE better than another group in some way it betrays an element of pride - but if you're saying anything along the lines of the ultimate goal is unity and stuff like that, you've just gone against that by such a statement right? The issue then is not so much a question of whether you are in fact better than another group in some way, but rather how you've separated yourself and some other group - that's not the spirit of unity. It's fine to make qualitative distinctions, but if you identify yourself by what you stand for people can make their own decisions based on their values. If there's such virtue in a certain group people can't help but notice, it would not be necessary to advertise it or even compare yourself to others. People come to realize your distinctiveness by how you are, not what you say about yourself.
I have to admit, I didn't read that page because of the length, I have dialup and access I actually didn't have time for the whole thing to even finish loading.
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Anyone Vegetarian???Need advice...
by LyinEyes inwell i just got my blood work done, it was way over due , it has been three years.
it came back good on the sugar, but bad on cholestoral...... and very , very bad on triglycrides.
my family on dad's side, everyone has trouble with this from a very early age, and all of them have to be on meds even thou they changed diet, lost weight, and exercised.
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Introspection
Valis I was going to say Boca Burgers too - and I don't know where you live but there are also those veggie burgers that are marinated in a special sauce like curry flavored ones (along with others) that come in a two pack, which are more expensive but very tasty.
Just off the top of my head I would also say look into taking niacin for the cholesterol. I understand that you want to take 3000mg a day which would be 6 500mg caps, and the form is supposed to be significant - you want inositol hexaniacinate which is flush-free. Like anything else it can get pricey, so I would recommend checking out the online dealers and stocking up instead of buying retail. One place I like is www.swansonvitamins.com - they have an okay selection but realy good prices, something like this is certainly no problem. (BTW, if you get their brand I would go with the Swanson Ultras, I don't know why but they have a cheapy line and like a couple of better ones - I know the ultra is decent from the stuff I've tried and still really good prices)
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Message from Sharon Roe and request from me
by seven006 infor those who wrote sharon roe (sister of janet and robert bryant) a few months back and sent your love and support i have a message from sharon.
i just got off the phone with her and she wanted me to pass on her love and thanks to all of you for taking the time to send your messages.
the notes you wrote lifted her spirits and she is now beginning to understand that she is not alone.
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Introspection
I've been thinking of going to the Sacramento meet-up, and thought I throw out the idea that people who do go to that one might figure something out as far as a visit is concerned. I guess not everyone might know her or be a known/active member on the board but some are bound to be, and I'd be willing to tag along especially if it's on the same day as the meet-up.
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Anyone Vegetarian???Need advice...
by LyinEyes inwell i just got my blood work done, it was way over due , it has been three years.
it came back good on the sugar, but bad on cholestoral...... and very , very bad on triglycrides.
my family on dad's side, everyone has trouble with this from a very early age, and all of them have to be on meds even thou they changed diet, lost weight, and exercised.
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Introspection
I don't see a problem with meat, though most people could be eating a LOT LESS of it. Even so, you might want to cut out certain types of meat for a while until things clear up.
If you do to decide to go vegetarian, make sure you get enough of the nutrients that we usually get from meat - like iron and vitamin B12. (which means you may need to supplement) Also don't fill yourself up with a lot of nutritionally empty foods like bread and pasta, the way they are processed there's hardly any of the micronutrients left.
It's easy to understand that there's a balance between how many calories you take in and how many are used up through physical and mental activity. The only practical way to find that balance is just to be aware of both. I think the biggest thing that health conscious people overlook is not the specifics of what kind of food to eat or what kind of exercise to do, but frankly they lack consciousness itself. It doesn't matter how great your health plan is, but if you follow it blindly you're bound to mess up, because your body is a living, dynamic thing. Instead of just being upset at feeling bad, a good question to ask would be WHAT am I feeling? See that actually tells you something, whereas you just don't look at it if you've identified something as "bad", it's kind of a dismissive label. So it's not just theory in the form of a diet or any kind of plan, but the reality is what's actually going on in your body right now, and if you're going to change that into a healthy body it only makes sense to be aware of it.
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JWs are broken souls
by Introspection ini heard this from a friend of mine once, this is how he described an elder i used to be roommates with.
i went to court for jury duty yesterday, and lo and behold there was a witness sitting in front of me, reading the new book on isaiah or whatever it was - and there i was behind him reading steven hassan's combating cult mind control.
(oh the irony - if only i had a pic) .
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Introspection
I heard this from a friend of mine once, this is how he described an elder I used to be roommates with. I went to court for jury duty yesterday, and lo and behold there was a witness sitting in front of me, reading the new book on Isaiah or whatever it was - and there I was behind him reading Steven Hassan's Combating Cult Mind Control. (oh the irony - if only I had a pic)
In watching him it occurred to me that he reminds me of my old roommate, he's so timid but not just that, there's a quality of a being a broken shell. I think the best way I can describe it is the look of someone with an empty heart. Do you know what I mean? It's sad, really. It's almost like if you take away their beliefs, they have nothing left. Well, if anyone out there feels this describes them, my question to you is simple: Who has nothing left? It may be a painful experience, but someone is experiencing it right? Get to know yourself, you are in spite of your beliefs.