Introspection

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Posts by Introspection

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  16

  Stupid people

  by tattoogrl333 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  well in an attempt to question and learn more about the bible as was suggested to me by various people, i attended church with a friend.

  afterwards i spoke with the preacher, and asked him about some of the things i had learned from the jw.

  he quickly disregarded what i told him and pointed out a few scriptures, i showed him more that backed up what i had been taught.

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  Introspection

  Welcome to the church brother.

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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  16

  Stupid people

  by tattoogrl333 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  well in an attempt to question and learn more about the bible as was suggested to me by various people, i attended church with a friend.

  afterwards i spoke with the preacher, and asked him about some of the things i had learned from the jw.

  he quickly disregarded what i told him and pointed out a few scriptures, i showed him more that backed up what i had been taught.

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  Introspection

  After re-reading the posts in the thread so far, a few other things come to mind.

  Bug, it's a good point that you make about how in the end we don't really know, though I would point out that strictly speaking, we can only make that statement with others who agree with us, that is to say it starts with I don't really know. I like what you said about it being a personal matter in terms of we require different explanations etc, though for the same reason our ignorance is also our own.

  Tattoo, what you've expressed about a desire for someone who cares and is willing to forgive is basically a desire for security, and we've been talking about that in the Main message board. There is a thread on Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die and there were some quotes which I posted under Intelligent Scrutiny and security that I think also touches on this point. You know what though, regardless of your beliefs there are many out there who cares and is willing to forgive you...

  (edited for this additional note:)
  I wanted to clarify what I meant by a desire for security in this context Tattoo - in your case you're not searching because you're afraid of mortality or something, but from what you've expressed it is kind of like the security in a relationship, a relationship with a personal God. Sorry I guess it was kind of vague before.

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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  6

  The DUBS keep leaving one by one hurrah hurrah

  by VeniceIT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  well i was reading a few other posts today and got inspired!!!!

  everyone join in!!!

  the dubs keep leaving two by two.........

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  Introspection

  99 bottles of dubs on the wall, 99 bottles of dubs.. If one of the ... oh sorry.

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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  16

  Stupid people

  by tattoogrl333 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  well in an attempt to question and learn more about the bible as was suggested to me by various people, i attended church with a friend.

  afterwards i spoke with the preacher, and asked him about some of the things i had learned from the jw.

  he quickly disregarded what i told him and pointed out a few scriptures, i showed him more that backed up what i had been taught.

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  Introspection

  Hi Tattoo,

  Along with what BugEye said, I would point out that people you talk to, being religious, has as their motivation to convince you to see things their way. From what you've told me it sounds as though the preacher you spoke to was trying to do this.

  If you're interested in the bible, why don't you read up on other Christian literature yourself and compare them to what the witnesses say? I'm sorry if you've already mentioned this in a previous message, but do you come from a Christian background and accept the bible as inspired? I was just trying to get an idea of the background behind this. Thanks.

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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  3

  What are the current study publications?

  by Introspection in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems like the last i heard, you can start a study using a brochure and then move on to a small book with the 6 month plan.

  is this still the case and what are the publications used?

  i thought it might be interesting to go through atleast the brochure, though i don't think i want to do that locally as the intent is obviously not to get baptized.

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  Introspection

  It seems like the last I heard, you can start a study using a brochure and then move on to a small book with the 6 month plan. Is this still the case and what are the publications used? I thought it might be interesting to go through atleast the brochure, though I don't think I want to do that locally as the intent is obviously not to get baptized. Is there something online or can someone send me a copy? Please email me if you can help with this, thanks.

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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  5

  Appealing to the heart w/JWs

  by Introspection in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems to me that a head on discussion about how the doctrines may not make sense wouldn't always work, in fact it would seem that it's an exceptional jw who sits down logically and concludes "hmm, yes i see my beliefs were incorrect, therefore i will change them today.

  thank you for that very informative information.

  " while it may sound trite, i think the key is to appeal to people's hearts.. i guess this often happens spontaneously and can't be planned, after all it depends on the state of mind of both parties involved.

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  Introspection

  One other thing to keep in mind, whether you yourself is considered moral or spiritual by the other person is irrelevant, because that goes back to an ad hominem argument. There would be no need to be intimidated by that. In fact, if you can it might be helpful to acknowledge faults you might have personally but then point out that it really doesn't speak to the reasoning at hand - if the person has an appreciation of humility they might be impressed.

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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  5

  Appealing to the heart w/JWs

  by Introspection in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems to me that a head on discussion about how the doctrines may not make sense wouldn't always work, in fact it would seem that it's an exceptional jw who sits down logically and concludes "hmm, yes i see my beliefs were incorrect, therefore i will change them today.

  thank you for that very informative information.

  " while it may sound trite, i think the key is to appeal to people's hearts.. i guess this often happens spontaneously and can't be planned, after all it depends on the state of mind of both parties involved.

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  Introspection

  Well, I think what this in fact implies is that you are trying to appeal to them spiritually rather than cognitively, not to be confused with trying to appeal to them religiously. What I'm proposing is to make very simple points based on basic, self-evident truths that most people will agree with regardless of religious beliefs or lack of them. (with some use of the bible since we have that background, for example the scripture that says he that seeks to save his soul will lose it) I would guess that someone who I would consider very spiritual might come up with these without trying in the course of conversation, so maybe others out there will have more ideas or different ones, and we can kind of get a little list going..

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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  5

  Appealing to the heart w/JWs

  by Introspection in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems to me that a head on discussion about how the doctrines may not make sense wouldn't always work, in fact it would seem that it's an exceptional jw who sits down logically and concludes "hmm, yes i see my beliefs were incorrect, therefore i will change them today.

  thank you for that very informative information.

  " while it may sound trite, i think the key is to appeal to people's hearts.. i guess this often happens spontaneously and can't be planned, after all it depends on the state of mind of both parties involved.

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  Introspection

  It seems to me that a head on discussion about how the doctrines may not make sense wouldn't always work, in fact it would seem that it's an exceptional JW who sits down logically and concludes "Hmm, yes I see my beliefs were incorrect, therefore I will change them today. Thank you for that very informative information." While it may sound trite, I think the key is to appeal to people's hearts.

  I guess this often happens spontaneously and can't be planned, after all it depends on the state of mind of both parties involved. But I think it would be productive to talk about certain points which can be made so as to have them in mind. Perhaps one of the more typical arguments is "The end is so close!" Well it occurs to me that regardless of the belief of that nearness, even JWs has to acknowledge that you wouldn't want to serve God or be a loving person just to get into the new system, I mean that is really a selfish motive, and frankly it wouldn't be love then. I guess this is a small point which is unlikely to make them leave the organization, but even this may cause them to think and see that statement in a different light when they hear it from others in the congregation or from the platform. Does anyone have other thoughts which might be useful from this perspective?

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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  22

  Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die

  by CPiolo in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those of you interested in why your rational arguments and reasoning, in addition to well documented information do little to sway the beliefs of true believers (family, friends, and loved ones), the reason as offered in the following article is survival.. http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html.

  offered humbly for your perusal,.

  cpiolo.

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  Introspection

  Yes a very interesting article. However, I can't help but question whether ALL beliefs stem from a basic survival instinct. I have a friend who works in a brainwave research lab, and he is the only one there who believes in psychic phenomena. When questioned about it, he has his reasons but I really question whether he presents his side as a defense at all. I remember one occassion he just started giggling like a little boy and basically said "I'll prove it to them." I really think he believes what he believes in, at no point have I gotten the impression that a doubt is threatening his world view or sense of survival. He knows his stuff too, he's done his research on things along these lines. A while back I went to a physics lecture with him and he was criticizing the speaker (a well respected professor from UC Berekely) for being sloppy and less than scientific in that what he was presenting is kind of unprovable. He really believes in investigating things scientifically and quantifying these phenomena. So it seems to me belief could arise out of a sense of wonder and imagination if nothing else, and in his case you cannot deny that it's tempered with rational intelligence.

  But the other question that comes to mind is how does someone move beyond this type of defensive behavior? Sometimes it seems some people is proud to believe in nothing. While that cuts out all the illogical rationalization, it seems to me it can lead to behavior that is so undisciplined so as to be potentially self-destructive, in that other rational beliefs that can really protect you are absent as well.

  The article addresses those who are not at all conscious or barely conscious of this behavior, as well as the skeptics who try to appeal to those who hold beliefs as defenses, but what about those who are aware of this tendancy but are still in the habit of thinking or feeling that way? Certainly recognizing that pattern is the first step, but is there anything they can do? I would think some on this board would be in a similar position and they would be interested in the answer.

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
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  Intelligent scrutiny and security

  by Introspection in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i thought this quote may be of interest to those on this board.

  even though the context is significantly different, i thought the main points the author makes were well expressed.

  i'll cite the reference at the end, see what you think of what is said first.. we must approach spirituality with a hard kind of intelligence.

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  Introspection

  I thought this quote may be of interest to those on this board. Even though the context is significantly different, I thought the main points the author makes were well expressed. I'll cite the reference at the end, see what you think of what is said first.

  We must approach spirituality with a hard kind of intelligence. If we go to hear a teacher speak, we should not allow ourselves to be carried away by his reputation and charisma. but we should properly experience each word of his lecture or each aspect of the meditation technique being taught. We must make a clear and intelligent relationship with the teach­ings and the man teaching. Such intelligence has nothing to do with emotionalism or romanticizing the guru. It has noth­ing to do with gullibly accepting impressive credentials, nor is it a matter of joining a club that we might be enriched.

  ----

  We have so many different defense mechanisms fashioned out of the knowledge we have received, the reading we have done, the experiences we have undergone, the dreams we have dreamed. But finally we begin to question what spirituality means really. Is it simply a matter of attempting to be religi­ous, pious and good? Or is it trying to know more than other people, trying to learn more about the significance of life? What does it really mean, spirituality? The familiar theories of our family church and its doctrine are always available, but somehow these are not the answers we seek; they are a bit too ineffective, not applicable. So we fall away from the doctrines and dogmas of the religion we were born to.
  We might decide that spirituality is something very exciting and colorful. It is a matter of exploring ourselves in the tradi­tion of some exotic and different sect or religion. We adopt another kind of spirituality, behaving in a certain way, at­tempting to change our tone of voice and eating habits and our behavior in general. But after a while such self-conscious at­tempts to be spiritual begin to feel too clumsy and obvious, too familiar. We intend these patterns of behavior to become habitual, second nature, but somehow they do not completely become a part of us. Much as we would like these "enlight­ened" behavior patterns to become a natural part of our make-up, neurosis is still present in our minds. We begin to wonder: If I have been acting in accordance with the sacred scriptures of such and such tradition, how could this happen? This must be due to my confusion, of course. But what do I do next?" Confusion still continues in spite of our faithful adherence to the scriptures. Neuroticism and discontent go on. Nothing really clicks; we have not connected with the teachings.

  ----

  Monetary donations to a spiritual cause, contributions of physical labor, involvement with a particular guru, none of these necessarily mean that we have actually committed our­selves to openness. More likely these kinds of commitment are simply ways of proving that we have joined the side of right. The guru seems to be a wise person. He knows what he is doing and we would like to be on his side, the safe side, the good side, in order to secure our well-being and success. But once we have attached ourselves to his side, the side of sanity, the side of stability, the side of wisdom, then to our surprise we discover that we have not succeeded in securing ourselves at all, because we have only committed our facade, our face, our suit of armor. We have not totally committed ourselves.

  ----

  Q: It seems that I cannot get away from trying to secure my­self. What should I do?
  A: You want so much to be secure that the idea of trying not to secure yourself has become a game, a big joke, and a way of securing yourself. You are so concerned about watching Yourself and watching yourself watching, and watching your-self watching yourself watching. It goes on and on and on. It is quite a common phenomenon.
  What is really needed is for you to stop caring altogether, to completely drop the whole concern. The overlapping compli­cations, building an extremely fine lie detector and a detector for the lie detector as well, such complicated structures have to be cleared away. You try to secure yourself and, having achieved security, then you also attempt to secure that as well. Such fortifications could extend to an infinite empire. You might just own a tiny little castle, but the scope of your pro­tection could extend to cover the entire earth. If you really want to secure yourself completely, there is literally no limit to the efforts you can make.
  So it is necessary to drop altogether the idea of security and see the irony of your attempts to secure yourself, the irony of your overlapping structure of self-protection. You have to give up the watcher of the watcher of the watcher. In order to do this, one has to drop the first watcher, the intention of protec­tion itself.

  It occurs to me the thoughts expressed here may sound contradictory, in that he's saying you should scrutinize even what a respected teacher has to say and then he talks about being open and not care about your security - but on second thought it is really two different things. When you try to evaluate some idea logically, if you're just looking at it for what it is then fear doesn't enter into the picture, it's just information.

  The threat that something you're looking at being another cult or crazy religion harming you doesn't enter the picture either. You may eventually come to the conclusion that it is in fact a wacky idea which can lead to that, but the analysis isn't so colored by that fear in the first place so that it's all done out of defense with the end result being that you really didn't carefully think about it. People study religions as well as cultic organizations, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are a part of these organizations or actually practice the religions they study. If we are so easily swayed by things we happen to hear or read, then I'd say that's kind of a personal problem..

  This quote was taken from the book Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism by Chogyam Trungpa, he was (I believe he's dead) respected as a meditation master, scholar and artist in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition and the founder and president of Vajradhatu, Naropa Institute and Shambhala Training and former abbot of the Surmang monasteries.

  "It is not so much that you use your mind wrongly--you usually don't use it at all. It uses you. This is the disease." -Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now