Posts by bluecanary

6

"You used to believe it..." - (No, I don't think I ever did)

by gubberningbody in

jw
friends

someone said that recently to me.

i didn't seek them out but they hounded me until i let them in.

in any case i don't even know what a phrase like this even means.. "you used to believe it...".

bluecanary

Many people used to believe in Santa Claus, too.

58

My JW parents met my wife, but would not see me...

by Confession in

so it was time for the 25 year reunion of tawas area high school's class of '84.

because i was class president, i've been responsible for throwing all the reunions we've held.

while i come to michigan on business a few times per year, i don't usually make it all the way up to the little, northeast, lake huron tourist town where they live.

bluecanary

Cool way to handle the situation. Not only have you handled it with the utmost aplomb, you've given them the opportunity to show how wacky their cult is to more people.

15

Confusing details in "What Does the Bible Really Teach?"

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

i've gotten through this entire booklet and have post-it notes on nearly every page.

i know this is a "study brochure" for newly interested persons, but the sugar-coating and glossing over of history, facts, and some of the outright lies i've discovered in it are astounding.

here is a "for instance": .

bluecanary

of course you can't have sex, since you are like the angels. but hey, always a price to pay.

That's something I've heard several times on this board, but never when I was in the b0rg. Did they say in print that resurrected people would not get to marry? I thought the scripture about "angels in heaven" only meant that a person's marriage in his previous life would be severed.

15

Confusing details in "What Does the Bible Really Teach?"

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

i've gotten through this entire booklet and have post-it notes on nearly every page.

i know this is a "study brochure" for newly interested persons, but the sugar-coating and glossing over of history, facts, and some of the outright lies i've discovered in it are astounding.

here is a "for instance": .

bluecanary

Sorry, WC, but that's not new light. That's what I remember being taught for the last 20 years.

12

anyone else play world of warcraft?

by John Doe in

jw
friends

what's your server?

race?

alliance or horde?

bluecanary

All the guys I know play. And I know one for sure who doesn't have a problem getting laid.

45

Talking points for reasoning with JWs

by bluecanary in

i've emailed this to several people now so figured i might as well post it and share with all.

the following information has been compiled from various sources on the web, including jwfacts.com and free minds.

a fraction of it is from my own mind.

bluecanary

Who is your mediator?

1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus."

Hebrews 9:15: "So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance."

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" pp. 10-11

If Jesus is only mediator for the few thousand remaining remnant on earth (in direct contrast to 1 Tim 2:5), who is mediator for the millions of Jehovah's Witnesses that do not form part of the 144,000?

To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites." Watchtower 1979 November 15 p.27 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men"

Does the Biblical evidence indicate that only a small portion of Christ's followers would be party to the new covenant?

The Law Covenant foreshadowed the New Covenant. It was established in order for the nation of Israel to have their sins forgiven, and required Moses as Mediator and a High Priest to offer atonement. It was not limited to Priests; it covered the sins of all the nation of Israelites and also could include the Alien resident.

"While Jesus' mediatorship operates solely toward those in the new covenant, he is also God's High Priest and the Seed of Abraham."- Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.362

There is no scriptural precedent to support the idea that the Mediator can be for a different group than that of the High Priest, or that the High Priest atoned for people not under covenant. If the 144,000 are supposed to prefigure the kings and priests and also prefigure the entire nation of spiritual Israel, then who are they to rule?

The Watchtower claims that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144,000 anointed ones. Does the Bible indicate that anyone can come to God without Jesus as his mediator? Does the Bible indicate that anyone other than Jesus would be an acceptable mediator for the rest of mankind? Do you accept a group of imperfect men rather than Jesus as your personal mediator?

45

Talking points for reasoning with JWs

by bluecanary in

i've emailed this to several people now so figured i might as well post it and share with all.

the following information has been compiled from various sources on the web, including jwfacts.com and free minds.

a fraction of it is from my own mind.

bluecanary

Is belonging to an Organization a requirement for salvation?

"Come to Jehovah's organization for salvation"-Watchtower 1981 November 15 p.212

The word "organization" is never used in the Bible. The Scriptures make it clear that being in union with Jesus Christ is the requirement for salvation.

John 10:9 "I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved."

"The Bible shows that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way... The nation of Israel was called "Jehovah's congregation." If you were a true worshiper of Jehovah back then, you had to be part of that congregation of worshipers, not separate from it. ...Did Jehovah ever use more than one organization during any period of time? In Noah's day only Noah and those with him inside the ark had God's protection and survived the floodwaters. Also, in the first century there were not two or more Christian organizations. God dealt with just the one. There was just the "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Likewise in our day Jesus Christ foretold that there would be only one source of spiritual instruction for God's people." You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth p.192

Bible history proves that this is not the case. For the majority of history God has not used any organization. He predominantly has operated through individuals, and has regularly dealt with more than one group at a time.

There is only one period of time during which it can be claimed that God dealt with an organization; that is the nation of Israel. Yet even this group split into two distinct entities and he continued to deal with them and individuals and other groups.

Did Jesus indicate that all of his followers would need to be part of a single organization?

Mark 9:38-42 "John said to him: "Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us." But Jesus said: "Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; for he that is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink on the ground that you belong to Christ, I truly tell you, he will by no means lose his reward. But whoever stumbles one of these little ones that believe, it would be finer for him if a millstone such as is turned by an ass were put around his neck and he were actually pitched into the sea."

Matthew 18:20 "Where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst!"

Did the first century Christians form a centralized, governing body?

The term "governing body" does not appear in the scriptures. Rather than showing the existence of a small number of 12 leaders being referred to as a Governing Body, Acts describes a gathering of the apostles and older men in Jerusalem along with Paul and Barnabas, who were traveling missionaries, and others. This large group combined to decide on an important issue affecting the local congregations.

There was freedom within congregations to discuss different points of view without fear of retribution, as shown by open discussion on circumcision. Even when guidelines were given at Acts 15 regarding circumcision, these were not binding. The formation of congregations indicates order but does not imply an elite group of specially directed leaders in a position to demand unquestioning obedience.

The history of the Apostle Paul shows that there was no centralized Governing Body directing the early Christians. After Paul's conversion, he did not convene with a governing body or go to Jerusalem to receive an assignment. Rather, he immediately embarked on his missionary work under direction of Holy Spirit. Paul did not make his first trip to Jerusalem until three years after his conversion, and even then he did not meet with a group of leaders, but just with Peter and James.

The concept of Jehovah having one single organization that he directs by means of a Governing Body is used to support the concept that being a Jehovah's Witness is essential for salvation. Though the Bible consistently says it is faith in Jesus that is important, the Watchtower shifts attention to the Organization with statements such as "we must uphold the truth of that organization." (Watchtower 1961 May 1 p.276) The Governing Body uses this principle to set itself as a spiritual authority above the Bible, such as when stating:

"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah's visible organization in mind." Watchtower 1967 October 1 p.587

Jesus said "He that believes has everlasting life"(John 6:47) and "I know my sheep and my sheep know me"(John 10:14). When a Jehovah's Witness reads passages like these they are trained to understand "whoever believes what the Watchtower says about Jesus may have everlasting life", and "the sheep know me, only by means of the Watchtower Society".

It is apparent that for most of the history of the Bible, Jehovah did not have a visible organization. Even during the short period that he used the Nation of Israel he regularly dealt with individuals in preference to the leaders of that organization, as was also the case during early Christian times. With both the Jews and early Christians, within just a few decades they were plagued with corruption and apostasy.

Based on the Biblical evidence, is it reasonable to believe that Jehovah deals only with the leaders of the organization rather than faithful individuals, even ones outside of that organization or who disagree with false teachings of His representative organization?

Based on Jesus teachings that he is the only way to salvation, is it correct to think that being associated with an organization is our means of salvation?

45

Talking points for reasoning with JWs

by bluecanary in

i've emailed this to several people now so figured i might as well post it and share with all.

the following information has been compiled from various sources on the web, including jwfacts.com and free minds.

a fraction of it is from my own mind.

bluecanary

Should a minor child be allowed to make a baptismal vow?

Baptism as a Jehovah's Witness is a binding verbal contract with the Watchtower Society. In most countries today, minors are prohibited from making any kind of contract. A child's knowledge and ideas change dramatically between the teens and twenties, and for this reason the law protects the rights of minors.

Never is the baptism of a minor mentioned in the Bible. Jesus was not baptized until he was 30 and Jews felt a person became an adult at 30. When Cornelius and his family were baptized it does not state that any non adults were baptized and there is no scriptural evidence of any children or teenagers ever being baptized.

Minor children of Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from participating in non-sinful activities that worldly children take for granted (e.g. choosing entertainment, clothing and association, dating, attending parties without supervision) because they are not yet mature. How is it that someone who must run nearly every decision they make through a parental filter is deemed mature enough to make a vow dedicating themselves to live the remainder of their lives according to the dictates of an organization that may change rules and doctrines at any time?

As soon as a child is old enough to speak, it is old enough to parrot its parents' beliefs. Memorizing doctrines and reciting programmed answers to baptismal questions does not ensure that a child understands the beliefs they purport to have. Do not the Witnesses pooh-pooh other religions for baptizing those without capacity for understanding?

In light of Biblical evidence and common sense about the sensibilities of children, is it reasonable to allow minors to get baptized and hold them accountable for a vow they made at time when they could not truly understand what they were dedicating themselves to?

45

Talking points for reasoning with JWs

by bluecanary in

i've emailed this to several people now so figured i might as well post it and share with all.

the following information has been compiled from various sources on the web, including jwfacts.com and free minds.

a fraction of it is from my own mind.

bluecanary

Is the Watchtower Society's practice of disfellowshipping consistent with the Bible?

2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14-15 "Now we are giving you orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition you received from us....But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother."

The "word through this letter" of 2 Thessalonians included more than non-serious sins. It included those not glorifying "the name of our Lord Jesus", those refusing to work for a living, and any who had been swayed by apostasy.

Paul did not say to disfellowship and shun such people, but rather instructed the congregation to 'mark' or 'take note of' such a person, yet "continue admonishing him as a brother". There is a difference between taking note of someone's behavior so as not be influenced by it and completely shunning the person.

1 Corinthians 5:11 "But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man.

This advice is in regards to a person "called a brother" who "is" a wrongdoer. No indication is given that they should be avoided when they are no longer recognized as a Jehovah's Witness brother. Nor does it say to shun a person who has stopped their wrongdoing.

2 Corinthians 2:5-6 "Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of you to an extent-not to be too harsh in what I say. This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man."

Paul does not insist that everyone participate in the rebuke. Some may choose not to.

When the person was publicly reproved, the congregation was to know why. Paul openly told the congregation of the wrong conduct of Peter, Hymenaeus, Alexander and Diotrephes. To avoid legal problems, the Society does not follow this scriptural advice. The extent of both the disfellowshipping and disassociating announcement is now stated in Organised to do Jehovah's Will (2005) p.154 to be restricted to:

"[Name of person] is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses."

2 John 7-11: "For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look out for yourselves, that you do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that you may obtain a full reward. Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."

- John is here referring to the antichrist and it should not be applied across the board to all forms of sin.

Galatians 6:1 "Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness, as you each keep an eye on yourself, for fear you also may be tempted."

- In the scriptures, it makes no mention of a time limit over which the process must take place. It does indicate that quite some period of time may be involved. If a person is addicted to certain practices or if they are having doubts about doctrine it could take months of effort to overcome these. Yet in many cases when a Jehovah's Witness confesses or another person reports their activities to the elders they are disfellowshipped within a few weeks.

What did Jesus have to say on the matter?

Luke 6:27-37, in list form: "But I say to you who are listening,
- Continue to love your enemies,
- to do good to those hating you,
- to bless those cursing you,
- to pray for those who are insulting you.
- To him that strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also; and from him that takes away your outer garment, do not withhold even the undergarment.
- Give to everyone asking you, and from the one taking your things away do not ask [them] back.
- "Also, just as you want men to do to you, do the same way to them.
- "And if you love those loving you, of what credit is it to you? For even the sinners love those loving them. And if you do good to those doing good to you, really of what credit is it to you? Even the sinners do the same.
- Also, if you lend [without interest] to those from whom you hope to receive, of what credit is it to you? Even sinners lend [without interest] to sinners that they may get back as much.
- To the contrary, continue to love your enemies and to do good and to lend [without interest], not hoping for anything back; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked.
- Continue becoming merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
- "Moreover, stop judging, and you will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and you will by no means be condemned."

Jesus introduced the standard on how Christian wrongdoers should be treated, saying at Matthew 18:15-17: "Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."

- Jesus did not say to never utter a word to an unrepentant wrong doer but to treat them "as a tax collector". He himself spoke to and ate with tax collectors. (Matthew 9:11).

- In determining if a person should be disfellowshipped the elders form a (judicial committee) to meet with the 'wrongdoer'. This is done in private, and the wrongdoer is not allowed an onlooker, lawyer or recording device. The word "judicial committee" does not appear in the Bible and both the Israelites and early Christian congregations kept matters open to ordinary persons. Rather than being done in private in front of elders only, matters were done at the city gates so a fair discussion with onlookers could be made. This prevented the injustice that can take place before small closed bodies of elders.

Since the word disfellowship does not appear in the Scriptures, the New World Translation Reference Bible "Bible words indexed" directs the reader to the term "expelled". The references given are regarding the Pharisees' practice of expelling from the Synagogue. The closest Scriptural example the Watchtower can find for the term disfellowship is that of the Pharisees.

In light of Scriptural evidence, does the Watchtower Society's policy of disfellowshipping seem to be in harmony with what Jesus taught and with what was practiced by first century Christians?

45

Talking points for reasoning with JWs

by bluecanary in

i've emailed this to several people now so figured i might as well post it and share with all.

the following information has been compiled from various sources on the web, including jwfacts.com and free minds.

a fraction of it is from my own mind.

bluecanary

Does the Bible really support the teaching that God disapproves of blood transfusions?

How Blood Can Save Your Life? p.7 says "You owe it to yourself to get the facts in order to make an informed choice about blood."

The Jews were instructed to pour out the blood of the animal because that represented the animal's life. This was fitting because that animal had relinquished its life. When a person receives a blood transfusion, it is from another live person whose lifeblood is still flowing and will be poured out at a future date upon death.

Transfusing blood into your veins is not the equivalent of injecting food into them. If you are starving and you receive a blood transfusion, you will still die of starvation.

If consuming blood was a capitol offense, why were Saul's men not executed when they fell to eating blood along with the meat? (1 Sam. 14:31-35)

Deuteronomy 14:21:"You must not eat any body [already] dead. To the alien resident who is inside your gates you may give it, and he must eat it; or there may be a selling of it to a foreigner, because you are a holy people to Jehovah your God."

o W 04 6/15 pp. 14-15After the Flood, mankind started anew with just eight souls. In a declaration applying to all humans, God . . . said that humans could eat animal flesh, but he set this restriction: "Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to you. Only flesh with its soul-its blood-you must not eat."

§ Why would the Watchtower Society try to apply this to all of humanity when it is clear from the above quote in Deuteronomy that God later applied it only to Israelites under the Mosaic law, which has since been done away with?

o Israel was in a covenant relationship with God, foreigners were not. The Watchtower teaches that the Great Crowd is not in a covenant relationship with Jehovah. That being the case it would seem that only the anointed should be required to abstain from blood.

Most meats still contain trace elements of blood. If abstaining from blood is so important, why don't Witnesses eat only meat that has been slaughtered in the Kosher method of the Jews? (Side point: Jews will accept blood transfusions.)

Acts 15:28-29 "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!"

o Notice that along with abstaining from blood, we also hear the command to abstain from "things sacrificed to idols." At 1 Corinthians 8:4-8 Paul helps the reader to see that the "eating of food sacrificed to idols" was really a conscience matter. This decision was rendered so that the newer "Gentile" Christians would be conscious not to stumble the more traditional Jewish Christians, many of which were still rooted in Mosaic Law.

o Of these four, only fornication is later absolutely prohibited for Christians.

o Christians today do not question whether the animals whose meat they eat have been strangled. Oftentimes they have.

Now various blood fractions are considered a conscience matter. Some of these "fractions" take far more blood and donors to make them, than accepting whole unaltered blood. If blood is so sacred that it can not be stored for a transfusion then the storing of blood and processing it into fractions should also be disallowed. If stealing and reselling a car is a crime, would it be any less of a crime if the thief took the car apart and sold only components of it?

o How can we say that Jehovah's Witnesses "abstain from blood", since all of these fractions that Watchtower Society now permits clearly tap into the world's blood supply and can be (and are) used by Jehovah's Witnesses today?

o If then, Jehovah's Witnesses can with a clear conscience now use these fractions that come from the blood supply, why are they forbidden from donating to this same blood supply? And, why are they still not allowed to store their own blood?

o If it is wrong for a Witness to donate blood, who do the blood fractions they use come from?

o If blood must be poured on the ground, where are the blood fractions they use derived from?

o If blood fractions were always acceptable to Jehovah, who is responsible for the Witnesses that died refusing them, due to previous Watchtower policy?

Would Jesus have made an exception to what was then a dietary rule in order to save someone's life?

Jesus performed many miraculous works on the Sabbath. Yet to work on the Sabbath was to bring the death penalty upon oneself.

Mathew 12:11, 12 "So they asked him "Is it lawful to cure on the Sabbath?" that they might get an accusation against him. He said to them: "Who will be the man among you that has one sheep and, if this falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not get hold of it and lift it out? All considered, of how much more worth is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath."

- Of how much more worth is a man's life who will die without receiving a blood transfusion?

Matthew 12:7 "However, if you had understood what this means, 'I want mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless ones."

"The blood in any person is in reality the person himself. ... poisons due to personal living, eating and drinking habits ... The poisons that produce the impulse to commit suicide, murder, or steal are in the blood. Moral insanity, sexual perversions, repression, inferiority complexes, petty crimes - these often follow in the wake of blood transfusion." (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1961 page 564)

In light of the evidence, does it appear that Jehovah is directing the Society in issuing medical directives? If Jehovah did not intend for people to die for the sake of a symbol of life, if the Watchtower Society has clung to this policy against all Biblical evidence, are they not blood-guilty on behalf of the many that have died by refusing blood transfusions? Jehovah has the power to resurrect, but does he not hold accountable those who are responsible for untimely deaths?