Posts by sunrising

posted

96
How much apostate is in each JW ?
by inbetween in
1. jw
2. experiences
recently i talked to some jw, even so called strong ones in the truth:.

i noticed, they do not believe everything from the wts, for example:.

one older sister, a close relative of mine, she has been pioneering for years, babtizes over 40 years ago, mentioned, that sometimes she wonders about certain teaching, but she can not say anything, because somebody would say, she speaks against jehovah himself..further she said, she remmebers 1975, and that the society tried to blame the brothers, but was clearly responsible itself... i was quit shocked to hear that from her, and i added some careful comments in the same direction.... other brothers do not agree with certain teachings, like resurrected ones will not marry, or animals will not eat each other etc.... maybe those are "minor" issues, but if you doubt one teaching of gods channel, doesnt that mean, you doubt the whole thing ?.
sunrising

Perhaps what has been "liberally" labeled as apostate is not apostate at all.
Are we not individually tasked with testing "every inpired expression?" (1 John 4:1) To question any expression from any source - WTBTS included - is not a sin nor are those asking the questions to be labeled unfairly as apostates.
Did not the noble men of Beroea receive "the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so." They tested every inspired expression.
We must never lose focus that JWs are the only people on earth that has advertised Jehovah's great name and His Kingdom. What a privilege this is. At the same time we must not forget the times in which we live. Jesus foretold the arrival of an evil slave prior to his return. That this evil slave would start to beat his fellow slaves. (Matthew 24:48)
It would be a mistake to say that Jehovah's House has been purged clean. We cannot affix a date on the return of Jesus according to Matthew 24:48. But we do know that the weeds (evil slave) will mature right along with the wheat (faithful slave) up until the harvest. This evil slave is present and they cannot easily be distinquished from the good and faithful slaves. So "who really is the "faithful and discreet slave ...?" Do you know? (Matthew 24:45)
Of course there are apostates in the true sense of the word. An apostate is anyone who has abandonment of a previous loyalty. We must be very careful in how we toss this word apostate about. The first disciples of Jesus were apostates were they not? They abandoned a faith and followed Jesus.
As JW, we have been duped into thinking that an apostate is any one who disagrees with the "feeding program" from who we have been told is the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
This Slave has been wrong in the past.
I remember when JW used to smoke cigarettes and celebrate Christmas. Would any of us label individuals back then - who spoke out against smoking and celebrating Christmas - an apsotate?
I remember when Kingdom Halls were segregated. Yet are to tell me that any Brother or Sister who raised questions about that back then were apsotates?
So why should Brothers and Sisters be intimidated and afraid to raise questions concerning WTBTS teachings that appear to conflict with what is written in God's word the Bible?
The idea that these Brothers we call the Faithful and Discreet Slave dispenses to us what they receive from Jesus does not hold water in a scriptural sense. That would mean all of the mistakes and misinformation came from Jesus; and we know that would not be the case.
Yes, we sometimes receive good information from the Brothers. But when one dines at any table, it would be wise to examine your food before fully taking it in. This is the testing of every inspired expression.
There are many times when the food is fine. There there are times when something does not smell or taste right. Are we to blindly ingest it anyway?
The bottom line is that we do not serve or worship and organization. We must think: The earthly organization - be it Jehovah's - is still made up of imperfect men. To serve it is akin to idolatry. We serve Jehovah.
And when it comes to scripture, we are to "obey God rather than men." (Acts 5:29)
So if the WTBTS says something that you personally have a problem with, you are not out of place - as far as Jehovah is concerned - to test what has been said to see if it measures up to what is written. Then YOU take it to Jehovah in prayer. To blindly accept everything you are told by anyone - WTBTS included - is a mistake because you are relying on the wisdom of men rather than Jehovah.
And, for an organization to discourage this "testing of every inspired expression" only confirms that an evil slave is present and is actively feeding us.
Most Brothers and Sisters I know are terrified of displeasing "The Organization" and the Elders rather than Jehovah. There is something very very wrong with this.
We are now over 7 million strong worldwide. Our make up is of people of every nation. Why then is the Governing Body made up on only White Brothers? Does this accurately reflect Jehovah's organization? Something is very wrong. An Evil Slave is present. This does not come from Jehovah.
Brothers and Sisters, if you love the truth - and you should - then you should carefully watch what is being placed in front of you to eat (in a spiritual sense).
No, you are not trying to cause trouble, but you know deep down something is not right because you read the Bible to. You have an analytical mind and can think and reason.
Is the WTBTS Jehovah's channel? To fully understand what has been asked here, one must consider in times past when the channel was supposedly dried up.
I believe that the symbolic drying up of the River Euphrates applies to the House of God. No Watchtowers, Awakes, Kingdom Ministries, Kingdom Halls, Conventions or Assemblies. All we will have is our faith and our Bibles. We are already seeing the start of this now with the new meeting arrangements. Many of us feel naked at the door without our bookbags full of publications. We will be left naked with only our Bibles and the truth we carry in our hearts.
Jesus spoke of this Great Tribulation at Matthew 24:15-25. This Great Tribulation is not what the world will suffer, it is what WE will suffer. Read in those scriptures the many times Jesus uses the words "you" and "your."
For example, at Matthew 24:20-21 Jesus said,
"Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until no, nor will occur again."
Jesus is not telling the world, in general, that it should pray that their flight mat not occur in the wintertime or the sabbath day. Why, most of the world does not believe in Jesus or Jehovah. No, Jesus is speaking to his followers and what they will suffer.
Well, the WTBTS explains Matthew 24:20-21 as applying to "this wicked generation" and that "immediately after those days" refers to the destruction of false religion does not measure up with what the Bible teaches at Matthew 24:15-25. Those scriptures are referring to tribulation for us: God's people. And, I believe the destruction of the WTBTS. Why?
Because Matthew 24:22 says,
"In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short."
Nothing in the preceeding scriptures references the destruction of Satan's empire of False religion. EVERYTHING references tribulation God's people will have.
Satan's empire of false religion will fall when the nations do at Armageddon.
Yet, to question this labels one an apostate. Why? Because it disagrees with what the WTBTS - not the Bible. Yet, we are to obey God as ruler rather than men.
Is Babylon the Great who the WTBTS says it is? Or, is this a diversion from the truth?
Read Rev 18:1-4 and think.
We are told that Babylon the Great is Satan's Empire of False Religion. Yet Rev 18:2 says that Babylon the Great became "a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird"
That means that she was not always in that condition. She must have been a clean organization.
But she becomes something quite different.
Since when has Satan's empire of False Religion been clean? Never !
Yet, we see at Revelation 18:4 the call for Jehovah's people to get out of her.
Now think: Before Bablyon the Great became a dwelling place of demons, she was clean and pure worship and service to Jehovah must have occurred their. So Jehovah's people must have been within her: a clean organization. But at Rev 18:2 she becomes something different. Now Jehovah calls his people to come out of her. (Rev 18:4)
So, who do you think Babylon the Great really is?
We attribute everything to Christendom and everyone else, when Jesus and John (at Revelation) is speaking concerning us.
In our study of the Revelation Climax Book, when I read the new understanding of Rev 18:4, I knew something was not right. We ignore the obvious: That Babylon the Great is Jehovah's earthly organization that has been over-run by an Evil Slave class (influenced by Satan).
That is why Jehovah is calling His people to get out of her because He will destroy her.
Another thing we ignore. We believe this is unthinkable. Yet, Jehovah in the past allowed a foreign invader to destroy his holy temple and take his people captive. It will happen one more time and after that, it will not happen again.
" for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again."
Our beloved WTBTS will be devastated. We had better be in expectation of it.
We should pray to Jehovah like we have never before for understanding and wisdom. Build your faith up now Brothers because you are going to witness something totally unexpected.
24
What do you think....can they???
by Heartbreaker in
1. watchtower
2. beliefs
can the elders disfellowship a person for using their own literature and scriptures in a way that makes them look bad to discipline a person?

i am getting ready to send an email to my torn and tortured sister who is df'd regarding the practice of it, how the wtbts adopted it, and scriptural reasoning that show its a harmful practice at best.

she is still convinced that she should try to be reinstated, and i am partially afraid she could print it and show it to the brothers.
sunrising

I have been a servant of Jehovah for nearly 20 years and - I tell you - something is very wrong. I have never seen so much fear of displeasing the Elders or "The Organization" as I see now. It is almost as if fear of Jehovah has been replaced.
Because the "Elders" disfellowships someone out of the congregation does not mean that Jehovah casts them away as of no value. We are in error if we think this way. Let us not forget, all of us - Elders included - are imperfect.
True, I believe that certain ones should be removed from the congregation if they have an agenda of causing trouble. I am talking about disrupting the meetings and otherwise acting stupidly.
One should not be disfellowshipped for disagreeing with the WTBTS and thus unfairly being labeled an apostate. An apostate is defined by the WTBTS as someone who disagees with them - not necessarily the Bible.
I remember back in the 60's and 70's when JW smoked cigarettes and celebrated Christmas. I even remember when many Congregations were racially segregated. So, are we to label those back them who spoke out against the celebration of Christmas or Smoking or Segregation as apostates? That would be foolish.
I think the scripture at Acts 5:29 has been re-engineered for many of us and we are currently in a situation were we are engaged in a subtle form of idolatry for giving more promimence and fear to the WTBTS Organization than to the Most High God Jehovah Himself.
"... We must obey men as ruler rather than God."
We should not convince ourselves with the line "This is God's Organization" and the "Faithful Slave" is feeding us as an excuse. Of course the WTBTS is the tool Jehovah has used to dispense the Kingdom message and advertise Jehovah's name worldwide. But we should not confuse this with the fact that the organization is ran by imperfect men who have made mistakes in the past. They are no infallable.
Our focus should always be on the utterances of Jehovah. Reverent fear should be in Him alone - not men or the WTBTS.
This Sister you speak of looks to the WTBTS as if they hold the keys of life and death! (reinstatement and disfellowshipping). What is wrong with us? This belongs only to Jehovah and His Beloved Son Jesus.
If I were disfellowshipped tomorrow for unrepentent wrong-doing, I accept that. I believe this is neccessary to keep the congregation clean; and it is scriptural. But if I was disfellowshipped because I question a doctrinal issue (against what the WTBTS teaches), then I would rejoice and give Jehovah praise.
If it got to the point were the Brothers felt the need to put me out because I refused to submit to something I felt was in error, then this on on those Brothers - not me. I have not sinned. I have simply applied Bible principle to "test every inspired expression" to see if it measures up to what is written; and I have followed the course of the noble-minded men of Thessalonica at Acts 17:11.
I believe that anyone put out of the congregation for such reasons will have an accounting to Jehovah for treating his sheep harshly.
We have degraded to the point where independent thinking and examination is discouraged. We are intimidated. We fear the Elders will find out that we have such thoughts. This does not mean that one goes against everything; it means that sometimes what is being taught does not make sense or does not quite gell with what is written in the scriptures or breaks from Bible patterns.
Christendom tells it's flocks not to listen to us (JW). We, like Christendom, tell our flocks not to listen to a Brother or Sister who questions the WTBTS. Instead, we are conditioned to call that person an apostate not really knowing why we call them that.
I think we have become worshippers of the WTBTS and Jehovah is a name we know how to utter.
It has become our Golden Calf "representing" Jehovah. This is idolatry.
63
Circuit Overseer Explains How The Internet Is A Trap!
by minimus in
1. jw
2. friends
my mother told me that the co gave a talk on how a spider spins his web and it can take a very long time for the web to be made but just like that--- before you know it---it can catch its prey and devour it.

it's the same with the world wide web, the internet.

there are reports, according to the co, that in new york, a very prominent "anointed" man was disfellowshipped and he has his owm website where he has answered many jws questions.
sunrising

In the scriptures we are to test "every inspired expression." Also, we should have the mind of the noble Beroeans at Acts 17:11.
We need to listen to what Jehovah says. (Acts 5:29) There has become too much fear of "displeasing the organization" rather than displeasing Jehovah.
The organization tells us not to go to spend so much time on the Internet and stay away from apostates and their literature. An apostate, according to "the organization" is anyone who disagrees with the "the organization." That I find is very convenient.
The Internet is not a trap. One could go to a library and pick up books of all types and get bad information.
There is a subtle intimidation-factor that has crept into the congregations. In other words, if a Brother gives a talk, like the CO mentioned above and whatever he said does not sit right with you, you are expected to blindly agree with it because it came from the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" or "The Society."
Yet, these are imperfect men who make mistakes. Plus, we know that in the final part of the days, an evil slave will be present and enter right in among them as weeds and mature along with them until the harvest. (Matthew 13:24-43)
For the organization to discourage any Brother or Sister from using the Internet or any other resource for information raises a red flag in my mind and is rather suspect.
It flies in the face of what is written at John 4:1 "do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God." So as individuals who were give a mind to think and reason and conclude matters on our own, we should test an expression even coming out of the mouth of a servant of Jehovah, if it doesn't sound right. Even what is written in the publications (anyone's publications), we should apply this test. This is scriptural. This is also in harmony with Acts 17:11.
But to restrain the Brothers and Sisters from using the Internet and reading literature from those who they conveniently define as apostates is unscriptural.
I can tell you, all who they say are apostates are not apostates. Obviously, there are former members of the organization who are disgrunted and have now come to despise everything the organization stands for.
But on the other hand there are many who truly love Jehovah and have a love for "his truth" but have been wrongly labeled apostate only because "the organization" labeled them as such. Like I said earlier, these ones simply applied John 4:1 and Acts 17:1 and discovered all that has been taught is not correct. This thinking got them disfellowshipped. But they still champion the truth.
I have been a baptized JW for over 20 years. yet, it was the Internet that helped me uncover the truth about the WT Bible and Tract Societies 10 years political NGO status with the United Nations.
Many try to spin this off as a plot. It was not a plot. It was probably an unwitting undersight by the Brothers. But they did revoke their membership only after it came to light. A vast majority of the Brothers and Sisters had no idea that this 10 year relationship existed. The Organization never admitted to the mistake; never informed the body of worshippers.
This is serious because by Bible standards and teaching, we were in bed with the very one we call "The Digusting Thing" and "The Scarlet Colored Wild Beast." Our Awake magazines, at that time, featured many favorable articles about the UN. The was a requirement to maintain NGO status.
Brothers, this is not a lie spun pranksters. I have seen some Brothers and Sisters cleverly attempt to dismiss and discredit this NGO relationship by attaching absurd stories to the factual NGO status to make it look unlikely and unbelievable. But the NGO relationship was true and you were not told about it. How do you think Jehovah feels about that relationship? Do you really think he views it as nothing?
So, it stands to reason why "The Organization" does not want any of us to venture out to find things out on our own and to use our God-given faculties to reason and apply scriptures such as Acts 17:11, John 4:1, and Aact 5:29.
We had better wake up and listen to Jehovah and be in fear of him foremost; and not men. Even those appointed over us and not be intimidated by men.
Bible prophecy does strongly indicate that Jehovah's House will be undermined by Satan's Evil Slave (weeds). Jehovah's House will become something that was not formerly. Revelation 18:2 says,
"And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird!"
This implies that Babylon the Great used to be in a clean condition were demons were unable to lurk. Well, this could not have possibly been Christendom, because Satan already has them under is control and influence. Plus, Christendom has never been clean in Jehovah's eyes.
The only organization that would fit Rev 18:2 had to be a clean organization where pure and clean worship was conducted: The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Jehovah's people.
But we see her become something different. That is why the angel gives the warning at Rev 18:4,
"Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plague."
In the Organizations clean and undefiled state, the angel did not have to sound such a warning to his people, But now that she has become something she was not formerly, Jehovah tells his people (who were in her when she was clean) to now get out of her.
This scripture has been applied to Satans empire of false religion. But it is not. Babylon the Great is Jehovahs once clean Organization that has become defiled and unclean. The call goes out to get out of her.
If the Organization has been undermined by Satan, and an evil slave is present, it is understandable why one is discouraged from looking outside the organization for information. You certainly are not going to be told this within the organization.
A shocking and unexpected event is to beset Jehovah's people (Not the world as we have been taught. The world wil get theirs later) as Jesus said it would at Matthew 24:15-21.
We must use reason and be in continual prayer to Jehovah because interpretations belong only to him - not imperfect men - not elders or COs. (Gen 40:8)
Many of these Brothers, such as the CO mentioned above, may be well intentioned, but it is almost as if they are afraid you might find something out on your own.
It makes no sense to aggressively restrain followers from seeking insite from others and then applying the rules I mentioned above to accept or discard it.
What they are really saying "Listen to us and no one else. If we catch you reading apostate literature or speaking to an apostate (who they define as an apostate), you will get disfellowshipped." This means ones life or death.
The organization has become god-like in stature issuing forth judgments of life and death by disfellowshipping ones over this kind of nonsense. Rather than treating the flock tenderly. This is the subtle work of an Evil Slave. It stands firm in a place it should not be.
9
When POLITICAL ELEMENT TURNS ON RELIGION
by cameo-d in
1. watchtower
2. scandals
will this perhaps only "appear" as destruction of religion?.

could it be that religion will simply go through a reformation?.

hasn't the political and religious element always been bedfellows?.
sunrising

It appears that The Book of Revelation - when referring to the destruction of Babylon the Great- is describing the destruction of a religious system that was once "clean" in Jehovah's eyes.
Notice how Rev 18:2 reads:
"And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird."
That Babylon the Great became a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation ... implies that she was not always that way.
This could not have been the religions of the world today because they already belong to Satan and are under his control; they were always dwelling places of demons from the start.
This Babylon the Great would have to be something that was at some time a clean place that was not a habitation of demons.
I believe this is the "great city" we see today made up of over 7 million Jehohah's Witnesses.
That this "great city" became a "dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird" means that the great city has been infilitrated by Satan and his demons and is now corrupted; the prophesize evil slave (weeds) have grown and matured right along with the wheat, the faithful slaves.
This is why we see the call at Rev 18:4 to "Get out of her, my people."
No one should confuse the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are fulfilling Bible prophecy. No one is carrying out Matthew 24:14 other than Jehovah's Witnesses.
"And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
The problem now is that they have been for a longs time targets of Satan; and Satan has been successful in misleading many of the annointed. (Rev 12:9)
The Apostle John, when writing down the Revelation Jesus gave, was particularly concerned about his Brothers. That is, those in line for a kingddom. So he warns them to "stay awake" (Rev 16:15). Jesus gives the same warning at Luke 21:36.
The world and the things in the world are not targets of Satan; he already has the world in this power and control.
No, we will not see the politcal elements turn against all religion. This is not what the Apostle John is describing.
John is describing something many Jehovah's Witnesses are not expecting: The destruction of the WT Bible and Tract Society Organization which has become corrupted.
This destruction will not come at the hand the worldly political elements, it will come from powers within the WT organization. This event will be absolutely shocking.
Jehovah's people will be scattered, but not forsaken. Many will lose faith and fall away because of this event.
Yes, there will be Great Tribulation, but it will be for Jehovah's people (who are in Satan's world).
The mistake (the lie that has been believed by many JWs) is that we have applied much of Bible prophecy to the world, not ourselves.
When reading The Book of Revelation, it is clear who John is addressing and warning: his Brothers.
It is "to show his (Jesus') slaves the things that must shortly take place." Then John goes on to write to the seven angels of the seven congregations.
I have studied the Revelation Climax Book many times as a part of the congregational book study. I know that "organizations" rendering of the "kings of the earth" is incorrect as well as the identity of Babylon the Great, the Wild Beast, the Scarlet Colored Wild Beast, The Image of the Beast, and the Two-Horned Wild Beast.
These things have nothing to do with the world that Satan has in his control. They have much to do with Jehovah's people: Those ones that Satan aggressively seeks to scatter and break the integrity of. He has already succeeded in a large way as many Jehovah's Witnesses have not seen through his great deception and blindly obey and follow an organization (of men) rather than Jehovah. (Acts 5:29)
Again, I want to emphasize that the 7 million or so witnesses in the world are Jehovah's people and they are the only ones carrying out the kingdom preaching work. Yet, a time would come when the great city in which they now inhabit would be undermined by Satan.
Jehovah now calls for his people to withdraw from this corrupted city.
You will continue to preach the kingdom message and carry out Jesus' command at Matthew 28:19, 20. But you will do so outside the gate.
Never speak harshly of your Brothers (Jehovah's Witnesses) even if you were put out of the congregation. Keep in mind that many of them have been misled by a powerful spirit creature. You are still obligated to love.
It is not the 7 million JWs that is the enemy. It is Satan, the one "who is misleading the entire inhabited earth." (Rev 12:9)
Notice who John says Satan is coming down to the earth to:
"Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU." (Rev 12:12)
Always keep in mind that John is writing to his Brothers (those, like himself, in line for a kingdom)
This "earth" and "sea" is not the world that belongs to Satan. This is referring to the organized body of Jehovah's people. Later, in The Book of Revelation, this organization becomes corrupted and undermined by Satan.