Posts by Juan Viejo2

22

Don't know how to leave: FADE or DA letter?

by porfiada in

hi folks.

i wondered if any of you ex elders can help me to figure out what my status is and therefore how to log out from the borg.

i was baptized at 15, faded at 18. never heard anything from the elders after their first visit, which wasn't about a big deal and had no conclusion.

Juan Viejo2

Cameo,

A religion has no legal authority over anyone, not even its own members. Where did you get such an idea?

Are you saying that the Watchtower Society can take you to court and say, "Hey, this person was baptized and took the two question oath in 2003 at the convention in Branson, Missouri. Therefore we have sovereignty over this person."

Yeah, right. I'd love to see that case on Court-TV. They only have legal authority as a corporation, but even the Bethel boys and girls can tell them to go pound sand and walk out the door. Is the WT going to sue them for failure to fulfill an employment contract. For what? Less than $100 per month?

Benny Hinn is a charlatan. Jan and Paul Crouch are charlatans. They are all charlatans! They get away with it because they do hide behind the separation of church and state in the USA. But hey, they got Swaggart. They got the Bakkers. They can get anyone they want if there is enough evidence that they are cooking the books.

If the Watchtower continues to do what they are doing now - or if they go over the line and intimidate some elderly person into passing their wealth to the WT and leaving their kids out of the will, they will get caught and pay the price.

If the government can send ex-congressmen and ex-senators to jail (Tom DeLay, for example), they can break the back of a religious organization if they really want to. The US government has so much on its plate right now, they simply do not have the resources. But the day may come...

17

The longest prayer ever done scenario

by asilentone in

what if a deaf brother sign the longest prayer ever recorded like one hour or two hours, do you think the audience will disappear before he signs amen?

.

Juan Viejo2

As a JW kid I can remember Sunday night Watchtower study. I used to worry that they would ask a couple of brothers to say the closing prayer because they always droned on and on forever.

Sunday night had Bonanza, Alfred Hitchcock, and Twilight Zone on TV in our area. If the meeting ended on time, we could see the last 30 minutes of Bonanza and the all of the other two shows.

One night, when I knew that one of my favorite episodes of Alfred Hitchcock was coming on (saw it in the TV Guide), I heard the words that meant my evening was trashed.

"Brother Wysocki, will you close our meeting with prayer?" Since it was so rare that he was ever called upon to pray, when he was, he made sure that he got his fair share of time. One of his prayers lasted nearly 30 minutes.

Brother Wysocki claimed to be one of the "anointed" - and so was his wife. But he held no servant's position and no one paid any attention to him. The word was that he and his wife survived the Holocaust because they were Polish. But we didn't know for sure. Whenever he was called upon to pray - you could hear everyone in the whole Kingdom Hall let out a collective moan. His prayers were unintelligible because of his accent and went on forever. I remember that one time when we were standing for prayer, one sister fainted and had to be carried out of the Hall to be revived. Wysocki just continued on for another ten minutes. The rest of us all wanted to go out and give the sister mouth-to-mouth. I would have been willing to give a corpse mouth-to-mouth that night.

JV

52

Tried to end my "bible" study, ended up agreeing to go to the Kingdom Hall instead!!!

by KristiKay in

my jw came over yesterday with a video she wanted to show me, i forget what it was called but it was about the history of the watchtower.normaly i don't have a problem discussing the bible with her, but i just could't sit through this bs video.

i already know the history of the watchtower,.

and it certianly isn't what this video was going to portray.

Juan Viejo2

Bohm,

I love your idea. I think you are on to something.

JV

11

A few questions for lurking active elders, former elders & MS

by onemore in

jw
friends

here they go.... 1) let say that you were a sincere believer of the watchtower, and fallowed the gbs direction because you truly believed that they were guided by the holy spirit.

what information or action would have made you doubt the validity & authority of the governing body?

2) what type of information would have made you reconsider your position as an executioner of the gb rules & regulations?

Juan Viejo2

I remember watching the late Dr. Gene Scott on TV back a few years ago. When I was bored, I'd grab a beer and some nuts and start flipping through the channels late at night to find him. He was always somewhere on the TV box. He always put on a good show.

One night he started "teaching" his flock about the Great Pyramid of Giza. I could have sworn he had a copy of C.T. Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures" sitting on the table next to him. He rambled on about the length of each hallway and access point in the Pyramid - often reading right from the book next to him. I swear it was SitS! Then he'd get up and go to his invisible blackboard and start drawing unintelligible scribbles and talking gibberish the whole time. His followers, sitting in the audience were all taking notes and drinking the kool-aid. Occasional applause would arise as he'd make some ridiculous assertion.

The whole thing reminded me of a small circuit assembly listening to the DO read off one of the latest talks from the GB. Only Scott was far more interesting and entertaining. When he was done, he'd put his sunglasses back on, sit down in his chair, light up his cigar and order his band to play the same song over and over again until a certain amount of donation money showed up on the tote board located in the corner of the screen. The 800 numbers were always on, throughout the whole performance.

I think Scott was really channeling guys like Russell and Rutherford. The "great bearded teacher" who took shit from nobody. His flock kept growing (thanks to his daily shows constantly on both regular TV and satellite). He was in trouble with the FCC so many times I lost count. Did he try to hide anything? Nope. Paraded his show horses and his equestrian daughter on videos that ran whenever he took a break. Didn't care if you believed him or not as long as you called in more money with your credit card.

I think that is the direction that the GB is heading. "Hey. This is what we teach. You will believe it or your out! In? You do what we say - to the letter and send us money. Out? Fine. You lose your family and we keep 'em. Years of tears for you, buddy!"

I really see that as the direction the WT will go toward. Unfortunately, they still won't be as entertaining as Gene Scott. He was playing the fool. They take themselves too seriously.

JV

69

Could ''boredom'' at the Kingdom Hall be one reason why some members leave?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

you'll find boredom where there is the absence of a good idea earl nightingale quotes (us motivational writer and author, 1921-1989).

let's forget that most members leave due to the wrong beliefs,doctrines and practices of the wts!.

i was bored out of my mind from the repetitive: talks,prayers,ministry school demonstrations,field service talks(peddle magazines),assemblies,special talks and watchtower magazine study articles.

Juan Viejo2

One thing that my Kingdom Hall did during the late 1950s was to hold the Sunday public talk and Watchtower study at the big park in Riverside, CA. In those days, Fairmount Park was a great place to go, with a lake full of lily pads and ducks, paddle boats, canoes and row-boats. It had a small arcade and a public swimming pool. What we used was an old amphitheater located off the to the side, about 100 yards from the swimming pool.

This idea was actually suggested by a new Circuit Servant [now Circuit Overseer]. He was a pleasant fellow with a lot of good ideas as to how to increase our field service times (45 minutes before Tuesday night book study) and holding the public talks in areas where passersby could stop and listen. The park was perfect for that purpose.

Our Congregation Servant, Brother Rogers, was a respected plumber and contractor in the area. He had made a lot of friends down at City Hall. So he negotiated an eight-week trial during the summer months (except holiday weekends) to let us hold our Sunday meetings in the park. A certain number of us would commit to going to the park and being the audience. Those that could not go or were otherwise disabled, etc., would go to the regular meeting later that evening at the Kingdom Hall.

Because we were at the park, we were allowed to dress casually. No swimsuits or shorts, but jeans and tennis shoes and short sleeved shirts were OK. We didn't want the people at the park to feel uncomfortable coming over and joining us. Some of us younger brothers would hand out handbills to our next public talk. Older Watchtower and Awake! mags were laid out along the back row of folding chairs or the concrete wall to offer to park visitors.

After the meetings, which were shortened somewhat, we would pack up the literature and the folding chairs and put them in a pickup truck. Then we would all go play catch, go to the lake and watch the ducks, romance our girlfriends - whatever. We loved the summer Sunday in the Park meetings.

You can guess what happened. Someone higher up the WT chain heard about what we were doing and the programs were shut down after just four or five Sunday meetings. My father told us that because this was not authorized by Bethel HQ, we couldn't do it anymore. The CO disappeared and I heard that softly written letters of reprimand were sent to Brother Rogers and the other main servants.

We never had single complaint. We had no hecklers. We passed out a lot of handbills and older magazines. The young brothers doing that work were allowed to count an hour on their service report - as did the public speaker.

After that, there was no joy in Riverside. That may have been the best four weeks of my childhood as a JW. Figures the WT leadership would put the kabosh on such a good idea. I think the idea of making meetings "fun" went against the grain for them.

Did any other Kingdom Halls ever hold public talks in parks or other areas that would allow them?

17

Menlo Park Kingdom Hall - Part Deux

by Juan Viejo2 in

this message is important!

timing is critical!.

those of you who have read my previous postings about the lawsuit over the remodel and potential sale of the menlo park, california kingdom hall are aware that i have been trying desperately to contact someone in the area who can help me get more information on this case.. .

Juan Viejo2

Thanks for the help. I received the links I needed and have forwarded to the researcher.

113

WTBTS Elder & Ministerial Servant Problems

by JW GoneBad in

i attended a recent ministerial servant k m school on the east coast and the main school instructor mentioned among other things (part entitled: 'objective of the km school course') that the total number of ministerial servants is seriously less than it should be.

in times past the ratio of m ss to elders was much more than it is today.. in the u.s. apparently the total number of elders is 88,500+ as opposed to m ss 65,000. the numbers show & numbers don't lie: the society is running out of spiritual men.

the instructor stated that this is a new downward trend that has (in so many words) the society worried.. the next speaker (part entitled: 'why we must be spiritual men') added that in his years as a traveling servant the pool of m ss has always been much, much larger than it is today.

Juan Viejo2

After a family funeral (don't get me started on funerals!!!), I had a brief conversation with a shirt-tail relative who was a JW over a plate of Mexican food and a couple of beers. He asked me if I would ever come back as a JW? I told him no, and told him that I would never join any religion or church, with the possible exception of a Universalist-Unitarian if I felt the need to mix with people.

He admitted that he was burned out. "Believe it or not, I'm an elder now. Me? An elder? What were they thinking? But they told me that they really needed help and maybe my strength as a JW would improve if I accepted the position."

As I sat there in disbelief, I told him that I thought he was sincere and had a good heart - and maybe that's why they chose him. "I doubt it. I really hate being involved at that level. I don't want to have to counsel the brothers. I don't ever want to sit on a committee and judge someone. But they told me that they had no one else - and they couldn't appoint a sister!"

He told me that when the DO came through about three years earlier, he directed that about half the congregation of just under 100 members should transfer to another Kingdom Hall about 20 miles east. When asked how the split would be determined, the existing elders were told that anyone in the KH who spoke Spanish - whether naturally or acquired - should be transferred there. The exceptions would be the very elderly and disabled ones who could not move. "They even wanted us to move the younger JWs who had only taken Spanish in high school."

He explained that 2/3 of the local elders were Spanish speaking and the move effectively destroyed the existing KH organization. Some elders would have to travel to both KHs for a while to support the move. Because this was a rather remote area near the Ozarks, this process would be a hardship on everyone. But the DO had made up his mind and the split was going to happen.

That's when they basically forced him to become an elder. "When I initially refused, they questioned my spirituality and dedication to Jehovah's service. They told me that if I refused then I would be considered 'spiritually weak' and might have to be counseled. They basically blackmailed me into becoming an elder. Can you believe that?"

"No. Not really. But I know the WT leaders have done stranger things. How can you believe they are guided by holy spirit when they pull boners like that?"

He told me that they were so desperate for males to take any leadership or responsible position in local KHs that they had even talked a disfellowshipped brother into asking for reinstatement so they could appoint him as an elder. Then he hit me with the big bat when he said, "Hey. I bet if you wanted to be an elder, even after all of your years out of the Truth, I bet you could be one in less than a year. You are bright, present yourself well, and can give a great speech. All you really have to do it keep your hair cut, wear a nice suit, white shirt, and a nice tie to the Kingdom Hall for a few weeks. Smile at everyone. Romance the sisters (figuratively). Answer the questions at the meetings. Act like you really believe the Governing Body has the ear of Jehovah. I bet you could be an MS in six months - and probably an elder in less than a year. I've seen it happen!"

I made it clear that I had no desire to ever attend a Kingdom Hall again in any capacity - except maybe as an arsonist. But my conscience wouldn't let me commit that kind of atrocity.

I think he was serious. He eventually faded, I think, and moved to a nearby state so that he would become invisible. I've had no communication with him since that time. But I've often wondered if he was on to something.

Has anyone else here heard of such a possibility? Has anyone else seen something like that really happen?

30

The Rapture is COMING!!!! SOON!!!!

by brotherdan in

biblical scholar's date for rapture: may 21, 2011theologyjanuary 01, 2010|by justin berton, chronicle staff writerformer civil engineer harold camping of oakland, who runs family radio, has studied the bible for almost 70 years.credit: lance iversen / the chronicleharold camping lets out a hearty chuckle when he considers the people who believe the world will end in 2012.. "that date has not one stitch of biblical authority," camping says from the oakland office where he runs family radio, an evangelical station that reaches listeners around the world.

"it's like a fairy tale.".

the real date for the end of times, he says, is in 2011.. the mayans and the recent hollywood movie "2012" have put the apocalypse in the popular mind this year, but camping has been at this business for a long time.

Juan Viejo2

Camping is obviously a student of Russell and Rutherford. They got away with it - and so has he.

Notice that he has all those radio stations and publishes literature and now has followers all over the world? What does that sound like?

I say it is the beginnings of Borg Version 2.0.

JV

12

Is there a serious weakness in the Watchtower Society's legal position?

by DT in

jw
friends

the watchtower society is good at intimidation.

it uses fear to maintain control of it's members, including fear of being destroyed at armageddon and fear of shunning and being rejected by family and friends.

they even try to intimidate former members by threatening them with lawsuits over copyright issues, as an example.

Juan Viejo2

This situation is exactly what the former elders of the Menlo Park congregation are facing. The Watchtower's representatives can remove them, take over their Kingdom Hall, defame them, falsely accuse them of mishandling KH finances, etc. The Watchtower is essentially stealing the Kingdom Hall. But as the brothers there are finding out, the WT seems to have the advantage because of (1) its seemingly limitless financial resources, (2) its inhouse legal department, and (3) the courts prefer to wash their hands of the dispute because they are afraid that any decisions might fall under the Constitutional ban against not only the abridgment of individuals' rights to religious belief, but also for making laws regulating how religions handle their members.

Advantage Watchtower - unfortunately.

Someday they will slip up and reveal themselves for what they really are: A publishing company running a money-making scam while hiding behind the cloak of religious freedoms and the tax-free laws. They are no different than Jim and Tammy, or Jimmy Swaggart, or Reverend Ike, or Brother Devine, or the "farting TV evangelist" of Dallas, Texas. They are all the same - but the courts don't have the courage or support to really deal with them.

Again, advantage Watchtower.

JV

69

Could ''boredom'' at the Kingdom Hall be one reason why some members leave?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

you'll find boredom where there is the absence of a good idea earl nightingale quotes (us motivational writer and author, 1921-1989).

let's forget that most members leave due to the wrong beliefs,doctrines and practices of the wts!.

i was bored out of my mind from the repetitive: talks,prayers,ministry school demonstrations,field service talks(peddle magazines),assemblies,special talks and watchtower magazine study articles.

Juan Viejo2

As a JW child of the 1950s, I remember that we had some great "extra-curricular" activities from time to time that really added to my experiences and fond memories.

I was raised in Riverside, CA. There were three (and later four) Kingdom Halls within a 10-mile radius of the downtown area. The city had a great civic auditorium and it was frequently used for circuit assemblies. It was also a great location for special events. For example:

Around 1955, if I remember correctly, one of the brothers from Bethel actually brought out a shortened version of the "PhotoDrama of Creation." It was shown on a large movie theater style screen at the Civic Auditorium. I did not see it again until it appeared on YouTube a couple of years ago. Very impressive. You can see why Russell was so popular at the time and must have gained many converts worldwide as a result of that most magnificent production. The one I saw was tinted (not sure when the tint was added), so you can imagine people in that early period before the first World War being amazed at not only hearing Russell's voice in sync with the movies, but also the fact that they were looking at colored film - possibly for the first time in their lives.

About a year later, a missionary couple came to Riverside and brought movies, slides and recordings with them. Again, the Civic Auditorium was rented and they made their presentation. I remember that their presentation was fun, educational and emotional. I especially remember their recordings of some of the African brothers and sisters singing songs from their version of the Kingdom Songbook - and even a few of their local cultural favorites (something you'd never see now!). Their harmony and skill was amazing. The whole audience stood up and applauded for nearly five minutes after hearing that beautiful music.

I also remember that an occasional brother from Bethel would pass through the area and stop by our Kingdom Hall. Sometimes, after the Thursday night Service Meeting, a visitor would stay over and either speak or answer questions about life at Bethel or Gilead. Families who had to leave could do so, but sometimes the visitor's informal talk would continue until 11 or 11:30 at night. We'd have to leave the area before midnight in order not to violate local noise laws.

I'm sure that some things like this must happen from time to time, but I have not heard of anything quite like what I experienced. Oh, and there is more - but I'll add that later in the thread...

JV