Posts by PSacramento

128

Jesus and the Mosaic Law...

by mP in

ive had many chats with tec and shes always fun but i must disagree with her angle on jesus and the mosaic law.

she always claims that jesus repealed the law.

ive asked for many times and she has yet to give the exact quote.. perhaps the most damning scripture for tec and friends is mat 5:18 where jesus unequivacably says the laws is perfect and will last forever.

PSacramento

He did not give any new commands. He simply highlights and comments on a few. No where does he imply these commentaries are a replacement. Im sure we both agree that Jesus would have said idols are banned. If he was replacing the entire Torah he should have mentioned this as #1 or #2. He doesnt because its a commentary with exerpts and not a replacement or listing.

The love thy neighbour comes from Lev 19:18

http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/leviticus/19

8 “‘You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.
He didn't give any new commandes?
Well, I am sure his apostles, especially the writer of the GOJ would disagree of course.
IMO, he doesn't just "comment" on them, he expands and even goes against the "wooden" reading of some.
Case in point:
Expands:
21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘ You shall not commit murder ’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court;
Against:
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘ An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth .’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘ You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

128

Jesus and the Mosaic Law...

by mP in

ive had many chats with tec and shes always fun but i must disagree with her angle on jesus and the mosaic law.

she always claims that jesus repealed the law.

ive asked for many times and she has yet to give the exact quote.. perhaps the most damning scripture for tec and friends is mat 5:18 where jesus unequivacably says the laws is perfect and will last forever.

PSacramento

Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; 18 for truly I say to ?YOU? that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. 19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens

17/ J says quite clearly he did not come to destroy or replace the law.

18/ J says quite clearly here everybody should follow the law down to the letter.

19/ Jesus says the law will last forever.

Im not sure how you can possible think from that scripture that J is saying anything but the law is perfect and will last forever. Im not even twisting anything its there in black and white.

So, it does NOT say the Law is perfect but YOU infer it is based on how you interpret that.

I can respect that even if I don't agree.

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

This thread has really gotten away from the OP..

IMO I think that the bible is, much like creation, a work in progress to say the least.

I don't see the bible being perfect or that it could be perfect.

WHy?

Well, according to the bible, God made creation and creation is good (but not perfect) and it is in need of redemption and that is a creation DIRECT by God's "hands".

The bible, even if we take it all to be FROM God, was not made BY God but by man so it doesn't make any sense that the bible, wriiten by man could some how be more "good" than creation created By God.

THe bible, like creation was/is in need of redemption and, as a christian, I believe that is what Christ did also.

Here is an interresting read that agrees with me ( and others of course):

Sacred Word, Broken Word: Biblical Authority and the Dark Side of Scripture by Kenton L. Sparks

11

The Florida Concentration Camp for little Boys .. At least 50 bodies found

by fulltimestudent in

this is a terrible story, as i believe from other reports that places like this were common in the usa.

(as well as, the uk, ireland, canada, australia and god knows where else).you can only wonder how no-one else in authority knew about this.

i think they did, and the authorities of that time were prepared to do nothing and say nothing.. web reference : http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-concentration-camp-for-little-boys-dark-secrets-unearthed-in-kkk-county-8518009.html.

PSacramento

Horrible, horrible things that we are capable of...those poor kids.

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

Psac, I am so sorry for those with a narrow view. I can understand saying the people acted without any true instructions from a God and just used a false claim to steal girls for plunder or wives.

Wouldn't surprise if that was the case, but it may also be the case that the writers saw what happend and, in their view that Israel was under God, felt that since it happend, it was God's will.

But to imagine that killing men and women then forcing their female children into marriage meant that the consequent sex was not rape on a technicality- that saddens me.

I agree, it is hard for us to fathom a forced "relationship", even one that is made legal in some way, to be anything other than disturbing and wrong.

Even though it was a very common practise in the ANE.

I don't believe these stories are actual history, but I do believe that actual rape occurred when one people attacked another. I am sure that many of these rapes were followed by marriage claims and/or ceremonies to appease the priests.

I don't doubt that these WERE real stories and that is what makes them even more disturbing in my view and very hard to reconcile as a beleiver and I freely admit that.

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

But it's not equal. Frederick Douglas was prominent, but certainly not equal.

No, you won't find any explicit comment on women being equal to men, but you do find:

1 Corinthians 7

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

Directions concerning Marriage

7 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is well for a man not to touch a woman.” 2 But because of cases of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

A statement of equal responsibilty between husband and wife.

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

Haven't read those books. That does not detract from my point that if entire passages are identical, it is likely that one is a copy of another.

Scholars first look at the first written accounts and how far away they were from events. I'll illustrate. There's the legend of Lady Godiva, an 11th century Anglo-Saxon noblewoman. She may be the same Lady Godiva who appears in the history of Ely Abbey written at the end of th 12th centry. The legend of her famous nude ride did not appear until the 13th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Godiva

The earliest account of the life of Jesus is now believed to be the Gospel of Mark, written 70 years after the events.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

Bauckham's methods, listed in the amazon review, includes "....study of personal names in the first century, and recent developments in the understanding of oral traditions. [He] also taps into the rich resources of modern study of memory and cognitive psychology..."

So he did not take in to account, as I have said, those sections that are copies of each other.

Both books addess the "issue" that one gospel maybe dependant on another ( or more than one).

The GOM is typically dated to 60-70 AD, which puts it about 30-40 years from Jesus' death, not 70 years after the events.

A time where it made sense to start writing thinsg down because the qty of eyewitnesses was getting less and less.

IMO, That one gospel writer took info from another what was perhaps already circulating (to from the same source as the one circulating) is not a big issue since there is no reason to believe that the writers of the Gospels were eyewitnesses or even the apostles but seems to me that they were writing on thier ( the apsotles/eyewitnesses) "behalf".

A gospel being attributed to an apotle ( Matthew's for example) does NOT mean it was written by Him, it means that it was based on His view, as he transmitted it and if the writer wanted to add to it based on another recognised source (mark for example) that is quite accetable.

Luke openly admits this.

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

RE: Paul and women.

This often debate and dicussed topic exists because of what was written in 2 letters ( 2Timothy and 2Corinthians I think) in passages that many scholras have issues with.

That said and assuming that ALL was written by Paul, those passages that are directed to specififc people ( congregation in Corininth and Timothy) and are speaking ( perhaps) on specific circumstances, do not over rule the other passages, such as in Romans, where Paul clearly accepts and praies females and even names at least one as an Apostle:

Romans 16

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

Personal Greetings

16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae, 2 so that you may welcome her in the Lord as is fitting for the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a benefactor of many and of myself as well.

3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, who work with me in Christ Jesus, 4 and who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Greet also the church in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who was the first convert in Asia for Christ. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked very hard among you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys. 10 Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobulus. 11 Greet my relative Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus. 12 Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; and greet his mother—a mother to me also. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers and sisters who are with them. 15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. 16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

To state that a female was prominant amongst the Apostles is as "equal" a statement as one can find I think.

128

Jesus and the Mosaic Law...

by mP in

ive had many chats with tec and shes always fun but i must disagree with her angle on jesus and the mosaic law.

she always claims that jesus repealed the law.

ive asked for many times and she has yet to give the exact quote.. perhaps the most damning scripture for tec and friends is mat 5:18 where jesus unequivacably says the laws is perfect and will last forever.

PSacramento

Indeed DD, YET the law was need to point the way to human failings AND in particular, Israel's failings as a theocratic nation.

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

We can only say that in the opinion of the redactor or editor of the Bible, God condoned it.

QUite correct.

That said, we must try to understand WHY he/they would have believed that to be so.