Hallo. I'm back.
Thanks for your consideration about my car accident.
Now i'm ok.
I am very happy to hear that you are ok.
YOU WROTE:
...Everyone else in the world can and does make time for their
most important duties...
ME:
You right. That's why we have no time for NewsGroups.
Your words sound like a judgement. I never said you have no
balance in your life, so why did you say (or suppose) that
for the life of Jw's ?
Never elevate ourself to a position of a judge. Don't you agree?
I agree that we shouldn't judge, however, I do feel that because all JW's profess that they are in unity with one another, and since I've had personal experience with many (8+) JW's who all suddenly 'don't have time' I was making an observation. Again, I am very happy that you took time out of your busy schedule to reply to me, as I am you.
Speaking of judging others, would you answer me a question honestly:
If Armageddon happened right now (This very instant), and I am certainly not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, in fact I have signifigant questions as to the claim that the organization is god's channel, do you REALISTICALLY believe that I will be saved from Jehovah's wrath? -- I've been to MANY KH meetings where the speaker is constantly re-enforcing that very premise, that "JW's are the only one's with a realistic hope of making it through the big A".. So, if you answer differs from what I've heard many times from the podium, I'd love to hear your explanation. And if it is in unity with all the other JW's I've talked to, I'd love to hear you explain how that is not judging me, in this case judging me as unworthy of Jehovah, especially in the light that we have already agreed that the organization is made of imperfect humans who can make mistakes, and it could be possible that they have made a mistake and they are NOT god's channel. (unless of course you have divine proof of such claim, in which case show it to me, and I'll be a JW tomorrow happily going from door-to-door) If they are not god's channel, and you view everyone that has sworn allegience to the organization as the only one's that have a 'realistic' chance of being saved, how do you think Jehovah will judge you?
I made an observation based on about 10 experiences I've had over the years, where all of the JW's claim to be in unity with one another (In fact, they boast of that fact!), and all of them use the exact same reasons over and over again for different things. Your organization makes the claim that anyone not of the organization is part of satan's world, and has no realistic hope of being 'hidden' in the day of Jehovah's anger. Please compare my observation to your view of the world, and tell me who appears to be passing judgement on who?
YOU WROTE:
...Oh, and while moses was being guided, did Moses EVER once do
something different than what god told him to do? While under
God's inspiration, Moses (or anyone else) did NOT make any
mistakes...
ME:
Moses made a lot of mistakes. For this reason he was not
able to enter into Promise-Land. He had to use his free will
everyday for every action. But when we talk about Moses
<<the Writer>> the thing is different.
God moved the hand of Moses. Moses was just like a secretary.
He wrote under inspiration. But today, this divine inspiration
no more exist. see 1 cor. 13:8b-9-10
Yes, I agree, Moses made alot of mistakes, and yes, he was even forbidden to enter the promised land, however, did MOSES complete Jehovah's will for him; I.E. did moses via Jehovah's blessing get his people to the promised land? And during that journey, did moses EVER once state anything to his people that did not come true? Did he mislead the people in anyway, and give them ANY reason to question that he was acting on authority from god? I don't believe so, (I'm sure you will put scripture here if indeed I am wrong), so in that case, why would Jehovah take his chosen people and allow them to cause some of his flock to question the authority that he has vested in his people (I'm referring to the organization here, which has made many mistakes over the years that have caused many to stumble).. Show me one example where Moses caused someone to stumble and feel that Moses was not acting under God's authority.
YOU WROTE:
Yes, I agree there was a 'church' in the first century..
ME:
That's good.
Yeah, but I didn't say that a church is NECCESARY for salvation. The church is a tool used to help a person form a personal relationship with god, I never said that it was required to be between god and man.
YOU WROTE:
however, I believe there is a story in the bible about a
Eunic who had a question, the question was answered, he was
then baptized that very same day, and then went along allowing
the holy spirit to take him away and continue teaching him.
Doesn't sound like he needed a church to be baptized and
allow the holy spirit to be in him.
ME:
The question is: <<Was the Church (Organization) necessary
or not ? moreover, is it NOW necessary or not?>>
If you read carefully the story of Eunuc, you can check that
he was going to Gerusalem to worship. So he was going into
the temple of his Church. That's mean the Eunuc recognized
to need a Temple and to need the organization all around the
Temple.
This story, on the contrary, support the idea that we need a
Organization. If not, why the Angel sent Philip to explain
the Bible? The Angel directly could explain the Bible to the
Eunuc. Moreover, why God did not let the Eunuc able to
understand the Bible by himself?
Why the first Christians recognized to need an Organization,
as you confirmed in above statement ?
Again, I do not believe that you need an organization or a church. The church/organization is used as a tool to help you foster a personal relationship with god, it is not nessecary for salvation. Are you in some way stating that Jehovah is going to look at our 'record' and say that he never spent time in Church/Kingdom Hall, and because of that he is not worthy of my love, and will not be hidden in my day of anger? I believe the JW's (as do I) believe that Jehovah looks at an individuals heart condition, and that alone is how Jehovah judges. So, by stating that you need an organization, you are stating that people in parts of this world who do not worship in an organized fashion have no chance of being hidden on Jehovah's day of anger? Is that what you are stating? Are you similairily stating that people who do not go to church/Kingdom halls on a regular basis will not be hidden in the day of Jehovah's anger? Are you stating that Jehovah's undeserved kindness and love for us hinges on us belonging to a church/organization? Could it be, like I said before, that the 'orgainization' of which you speak is the 'organization' of people from all nations in all parts of the world who believe in Jesus, and what he did for us?
YOU WROTE:
Also, I find it very interesting the last few scriptures in
Acts 15, don't you? Clearly, one's heart is purified by
FAITH, not by works...
ME:
Yes, you right! The faith first of all....but after ?! This
verse do not say <<anything>> about the "after"! What about
James 2:26 ?
And what about Act 14:27 ?
and Act 9:26 ?
James 2:24-26
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Acts 14:26-28
26 From Attalia they sailed back to Antioch, where they had been committed to the grace of God for the work they had now completed. 27 On arriving there, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles. 28 And they stayed there a long time with the disciples.
Sorry, I don't see how acts 9:26 applies to this one.. Maybe you can explain that to me..
I fully agree with the above scriptures, and they are in harmony with what I believe. If one has faith, then one's heart will be motivated to show that faith by action (works). It is the faith that is the motivating factor here, not fear, or any other reason. You can show works (going out in field service, volunteering at the Kingdom hall etc) 24 hours a day, but if you do not have faith, it is worthless. Jehovah will see through that, and realize the only reason you were doing those things is because you were 'afraid' or being 'pressured' into it (peer pressure). True faith is it's own motivator, and if you have true faith, your heart will show through, and you will demonstrate that faith threw works. Works cannot make one believe, but believing will certainly make one work.
What I've observed (i'm not passing judgement on them, just making an observation) from the mjority of JW's that I know, they seem to be motivated more by 'fear of god' and peer pressure than by faith. Those are NOT motivating factors that cultivate faith, those are motivatiing factors that cultivate works.
For example, why is there such a push within the organization to go out in field service? I've been to meetings where they 'encourage' all the brothers and sisters to go out in the field ministry, and in fact, they even have defined hours for various pioneer (aux, special, regular) levels. They then follow that up with 'Wouldn't it be wonderful if you were out in the door-to-door' ministry when the big A starts, or 'maybe you can encourage some who are not active in the ministry work any longer to re-join our efforts'.
Those seem to me to be peer pressure and fear tactics. Can you explain to me how they are not?
Oh, and would you explain James 2:25 to me? How can someone be claimed Righteous if they practice sexual imorrality?
There are a lot of scriptures that show us the first disceples
was organized in a Church.
Certainly, to get the word out, I agree with that, but show me in the bible where you have to be a member of a church to have a proper 'heart condition'. Show me in the bible where you MUST be a member of a church to be saved.
YOU WROTE:
Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, I will be
there".. That scripture doesn't say anything about needing a
church for Jesus/God to be with you, it just simply states
that he will be with us when we allow us to be with him...
ME:
It's too simple to stay togheter in the NAME of Jesus and
pretend that he is really with us!
We have to link this sentence with Matthew 7:21 and with Matthew
28:19-20.
Matt 7:20 - 24
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Matt 28:19-20
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
I agree whole heartedly, just calling on his name will not save one. One has to have true faith and believe in him. And if one has true faith, his heart condition will reflect such faith, and their 'fruit' will show through.
The first thing is to obey to the commands of Jesus.
And the first Christians understood that to do that, it was
necessary a Church. Take also note that they was guided by
the Holy Spirit. So if they considered necessary to organize
themself in a Church, it is clear the The Holy Spirit guided
that choice. See Act 15:28
Acts 15:28-29
28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not toburden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
Show me in those two above scriptues where it says that the following REQUIREMENT was to form a church? -- It clearly states what the REQUIREMENTS are, and I see no mention of a church being REQUIRED there!!!!
Oh, and here is an interesting question, Are JW's allowed to eat meat from that of strangled animals?
YOU WROTE:
Acts 20:20 clearly states that yep, you should go house to
house....claim that is a 'figurative' saying (I believe).
Well, most Christian denominations that I know of believe
that the 'going from house to house' is a figurative saying.
It was probably true in the day of Christ, as there were
no telephones/postal mail/email/Internet etc..
ME:
Here...i've some problem to understand your point of view
(even if i respect it).
You said that It was probably true in the day of Christ but
NOW is figurative!
Why today should it be figurative ? There is no reason.
For the exact same reason that the JW's have decided arbitrarily that the 144,000 people are literal, but the male virgin jews part of that same scripture is figurative. Actually, my reason is better (I believe). When the bible was written, there was no email/fax/internet/telephone etc. You and I are shining examples of that in action at the moment. We are exchangin ideas about Christ, the bible, Jehovah, etc without actually being in the other's house -- We are figurativly in each other's house, but not literally.
And I was told by a JW recently that they allow some JW's to use the phone to do bible studies. Sounds like even the JW's themselves are starting to realize there are other ways to reach people that by going door-to-door exclusivly.
Maybe because it is not simple ? But Jesus said the street
of the truth is not simple!
You right when you say that now there is Internet, telephone,
ect.. and we use also this instruments to talk about GoodNews...
but why say that <<house to house>> is NOW figurative?!
I didn't mean to state that going from house-to-house is a bad thing, I just dont' believe it is the only way any longer (using technology that the bible didn't know existed when it was created -- The exact same reason you use to justify the fact that blood transfusions are not allowed, but not specifically admonished in the bible)..
If you are a missionary in a third world country, going door-to-door may be your only alternative. But here (In the USA anyway) there are many other avenues to get the word out. And I believe that is what the bible is saying, get the word out. When the bible was written there was no other way to get the word out, now there are. Do you agree with me that going door-to-door is to get the word out about the good news?
Oh, and just to follow up on the previous subject, does it say to go door-to-door and make disciples, and make sure they goto church?
YOU WROTE:
...More over, the love I have felt from other Christian
denominations is not based on my love and loyalty to an
organization. I also think that would be very arrogant of
anyone who thought they were part of an elite 6 million
people on Earth that are the only people that can and do
love each other...
ME:
Maybe the ancient peoples thought the same things about Israel
due to the claim they were people of God. But this did not
changed the reality...they really were the people of God.
They were the Visible organization of God and only among
them the law of God acted.
I'm not quite sure how you claim that the nation of Israel was a visible organization of god, in the same way that you are making claim to the JW organization. First, the entire nation of Israel was brought into a covenant by god, no-one certainly was required to get baptized into God's good graces, and more importantly, during that time, Jehovah DID NOT USE the 'organized' nation of Israel to do his work, he chose individuals to do his work. Now you are claiming to be in a covenant with god you must 'choose' to be one with god (unlike the nation of Israel) and that god is using the organization to do his will (again, different from when he picked Israel as his nation). Exactly what similiarities exist between your organization today and the nation of Israel?
But.....as i told you in a previous message; if you think to
have found this kind of love in another organization..OK! I'm
happy for you. We have just to wait the big A (if you believe
in it).
I personally have not made a judgement either way, but I haven't seen any JW as yet show me how they arrive at the idea that their organization is what it claims to be. Therefor, I'm doing what I believe the bible states to do; That of don't pass judgement on others, and be true to what you believe, listen to everyone, but test everything and hold on to what is good and true.. Your ogranization has made a very lofty claim, and I've yet to see any proof of such claim. But I'm still willing to listen to anything you have to say. But do expect me to test what is true, according to scripture.
More over, I've seen no evidence that the people within the JW organization have a better from of love that that which I've found outside of the organization. In fact, by the JW's own admissions, the love a JW has is conditional, upon the fact that you love the organization. They will continue to love and support you so long as you love and support the organization.. On the outside, I've found no such conditions, I can count on the love and support of my family and friends, as can they count on me. The love isn't based on the loyalty to a third party. Yes, my loyalty is to god first and foremost, (as is my friends and families first loyalty) but that does not interfere in my relationships, as it seems to interfere in the JW relationships (Loyalty to an organization that claims to be God's representative).
I can be true to my conscience and still have the full support of my friends and family, even if my conscience disagrees with someone else's interpretation over matters. I'm not viewed as spiritually weak, but as an individual that has a different view/interpretation. JW's, on the other hand, seem to be viewed as spiritually weak if they have different views, and are told to be careful of association with people spiritually weak, therefor, if a JW has a different conscientious interpretation of something than that of the GB, their relationships with friends and family may and due suffer because of it. I am free to express my conscience, while the JW's fear losing their friends and family if they express theirs. Can you explain to me how this is freedom (The freedom as expressed in the bible, never shall you be 'yoked' in the slavery of the law again) , or have I misinterpreted what I've heard at the KH meetings, and read in your literature? If I have misinterpreted this, can you explain to me how it really works?
YOU WROTE:
David was loyal to Jehovah, the LORD stated that you should
not lay a hand on his people, and he didn't...
ME:
I just wanted to explain that Saul (king of ancient people of
God) was anointed one even after the big mistakes he did!
David didn't say: "..Oh! Since you have made big mistakes...
i do not more consider you as anointed!"
To be loyal to God means to understand that even the anointed
ones can make mistakes. To be loyal to the organization of God
means to be loyal to God. That's what I believe in.
Yep, Saul was a chosen one of God, even after all the mistakes he made. And again, god made a covenant with the nation of Israel. Where did he make a similiar covenant with the JW organization?
Jesus made a covenant with all that call his name, and believe in him. Why is that covenant limited to only the JW's?
YOU WROTE:
Ok, answer me this one: You go out in Field Service, and
someone asks you a question about doctrine X, which you do
not believe is correct, but the organization states that the
answer to doctrine X is YYY (you think it is ZZZ).. Do you
teach the person YYY or ZZZ? If you teach him YYY you are
not being loyal to your conscience, as you don't believe YYY;
If you teach the person ZZZ you are not being loyal to the
organization that states 'this is what it is'. If you decide
not to teach, the organization will state that you are
spiritually weak, yet you obviously have a very deep love
for Jehovah, and just have a conscientious objection to one
of the doctrines (let's say it is a small doctrine, nothing
even very big) you are classified as spiritually weak.
So, what do you do?
ME:
I'll show what the bible states and let the person decide by
himself. (obviously we are talking about a small point)
YOU WROTE:
How do you know that the organization's annointed are the
only annointed that are 'gods annointed'?
ME:
see the bottom of this message.
YOU WROTE:
...Whoa! I don't know about you, but I plan on being alot
more humble towards my creator.
ME:
I think that everybody should be convinced that his Church
is the right one. If not...all the streets could take you in
Rome (as we say in Italy).
YOU WROTE:
...Then why do you need a visible organization?
ME:For the same reason the first Christians needed it.
For the same reason the Holy Spirit approved it.
Nothing less...nothing more...
YOU WROTE:
...My question is why do you believe that this love is not
found outside the organization as well...
ME:
Never said that!!!
I said that if you have found it outside the BORG...i'm
happy for you! I can not judge anyone!
But do not forget Ephesians 4:4-5.
And now:
What about GB, 144000, ect.. ect.. ???
I think we should understand first if God required an
Organized Church. Only after that, we could speak about the
identity of this Church.
If you are not convinced that NOW as in the PAST God has
a real Church...is useless to talk about the anointed ones.
Ok, 1 question about this then. Do you believe that the 144,000 is a literal number, however the part in that scripture that refers to the male/virgin/jew is figurative? Yes/No?
ME:
Thanks. I also prayed to have the opportunity to meet you
in the New World. (hoping that I will be considered worthy
to be there!)
Thank you, I too have prayed that I will meet you in what I believe to be my spiritual paradise, heaven.
Edited by - ItsJustlittleoldme on 26 June 2002 13:31:20
