inbetween

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Posts by inbetween

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  97

  Beware of the Strawman argument!

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

  it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

  it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

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  inbetween

  very good story, thanks,

  however, I try to figure out the difference between a "strawman" and a "red hering".

  Is your story not rather a "red hering" ? Since the dentists might well be from the 3rd world countires, however, the real issue was, if baking soda is a good thing for cleaning teeth. So he led you on the wrong track, which a red hering is supposed to do.

  quote Wikipedia:

  Red herring

  . A "red herring" is a deliberate attempt to divert a process of enquiry by changing the subject.

  in opposite to a "strawman"

  The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

  1. Person A has position X.
  2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially-similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
  3. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted. [ 1 ]
  4. Quoting an opponent's words out of context – i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining). [ 2 ]
  5. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments – thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated. [ 1 ]
  6. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
  7. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
  8. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

  In your case, if the dentist said, that some claim, baking soda is the best for "whitening" teeth (which you did not say, you said "cleaning" ), and then refutes this claim, this would be a strawman according to my understanding.

  Sorry, no offense, i just try to understand logical fallacies myself.

  However, i totally agree, the WTS uses both fallacies regularly, and sadly also most witnesses learned how to apply this dishonsest methods, even though they are not aware of it. which is even worse, because they deceive themselves (I did too before !)

  inbetween
• 
  12

  Violence Training

  by MrFreeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  did anybody notice the paragraph in today's study edition that pretty much said that "violent video games and movies are training people to be violent towards each other during the great tribulation".. i really had to do my best to not laugh when i read this.

  i don't know if any of you watch penn & teller's show.

  they did a show on violent video games and their effect.

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  inbetween

  strange WT study alltogether anyway,

  admittedly, some kind of modern entertainment goes overboard with graphic gore and violence, even "worldly" people agree on that...

  however, if you make a movie exactly according to the bible, it would be R-rated for sure...

  The statement of the WT, violence in modern entertainmen tis training people to slaughter themselves in big A is weird.

  Training ( or here molding, conditioning) usually has a goal, a purpose, this must be, as the world is in Satans hand, from Satan himself. So he is training his people, so they can fulfill biblical prophecy of Zecharaiah 14 ?

  Another thought, if the big issue is, that mankind is not able to rule itself without god, than this issue is not answered either, because mankind does not rule itself, it is ruled by satan...so in fact mankind never had the chance to rule itself...how does this answer the issue of universal souvereignty ?..

  and if the rule of satan should be in any way a competition to Gods rule, should we not expect to have a better world, since any badness proves satan a lier and just gives evidence in favour of God ?

  ..my head hurts....
• 
  125

  Adam and Eve and free will

  by inbetween in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  pondering over this dilemma:.

  lets just say, for arguments sake, the report in genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event:.

  watchtower teaches, that adam sinned, because he used his free will to disobey.. god grants free will to his human creation, because he wants them to serve him out of love.. ok, good, but i give an example: i meet a girl, tell her, she is free to love me, but if not, i kill her.. would you call this free will ?.

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  inbetween

  wow, the thread picked up .....

  anyway, thanks, interesting replies...

  Regarding the tree of life: i discussed it once with an interested person, he had the idea, that humans got a kind of inner clock, that ticks towards death, and by eating the from the tree of life, they can set it to zero again. Once they turned against God, they were denied access to this tree, and therefore slowly died.

  Sounded interesting, but I checked the insight book, were this idea was repulsed.

  But what real function did the tree of life have ? To give them eventually immortality, as the WT explains ? Ok, so then this period of time before would be a test from God, but God doesnt try anyone according to James ?

  Regarding free will: Clearly God was upset about the decision of Adam and Eve, because he banned them from Eden, and it was necessary, as Paul states, that mankind becomes reconciled with God again.

  But what really is free will ? Of course, on a daily basis we usually claim, that we make decisons consciously and free, however is this really the case ?

  For example, I walk into a store to buy a shirt. There is a wide selection, and from all them I pick lets say a blue Ralp Lauren shirt. I go home and think I made a real decision out of free will. But is this the case ? Maybe I bought the shirt because I like blue (from childhood on), I like the cut of Ralph lauren, because it reminds me subconscioulsy of something I feel comfortable with, I finally bought it, because the music in the store is designed to encourage sells, etc...

  So in the end, my so to say free will decision, was only a product of my upbringing, genetic disposition, influences from envrionment etc...just afterwards I claim, it was my free decsion, when it was not.
• 
  3

  the weekly meetings

  by cskyjw.sun in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  know that the 5 weekly meetings have been cut into 4.but locally in my region,they retain the congregation book study.during midweek they will have 3 meetings instead.

  ( its duration is 1hr45min).

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  inbetween

  there used to be 5 meetings, held on 3 different days usually:

  Bookstudy - 1 day

  Watchtower study + public address - 1 day

  Theocratic school + service meeting - 1 day

  since 2009 they simply combined a shortened bookstudy with a shortened theocratic school and service meeting, so that technically all 5 meetings remained, just being on 2 days instead of three.

  hope that helps...
• 
  125

  Adam and Eve and free will

  by inbetween in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  pondering over this dilemma:.

  lets just say, for arguments sake, the report in genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event:.

  watchtower teaches, that adam sinned, because he used his free will to disobey.. god grants free will to his human creation, because he wants them to serve him out of love.. ok, good, but i give an example: i meet a girl, tell her, she is free to love me, but if not, i kill her.. would you call this free will ?.

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  inbetween

  Pondering over this dilemma:

  Lets just say, for arguments sake, the report in Genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event:

  Watchtower teaches, that Adam sinned, because he used his free will to disobey.

  God grants free will to his human creation, because he wants them to serve him out of love.

  ok, good, but I give an example: I meet a girl, tell her, she is free to love me, but if not, I kill her.

  Would you call this free will ?

  Of course, JW may say, God did not kill them, they just suffered the consequences of their behaviour.

  But it comes to the same: Who set the conditions for the consequence of disobedience ? God again.

  real free will would have granted Adam and Eve eternal life, without god, he would not be upset, because he leaves it up to them to decide.

  Somehow the concept of sin in connection with free will doesnt really make sense to me.
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  33

  Branch offices in Europe are closing

  by Samuel Thorsen in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i have from a safe source that the bethel branch office in austria, ireland, italy and switzerland are closing down in the near future.

  most of the business will be taken care of from the german bethel.

  nothing is said thru official channels yet, but there is no reason to doubt my source.. can anyone tell more about this topic?.

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  inbetween

  yes its true, they are closing several branches in Europe, what i heard, at the end of the year...and Selters takes over.

  its propbaly reasonable from a business point of view.

  However, it will be conveyed to the bros as blessing from Jehovah.....
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  32

  What Is The Watchtower Afraid Of?

  by metatron in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if you follow the current nonsense being taught by the society, in its latest magazines and assembly parts, there seems to be a dominant theme about near worship of the "faithful slave" and tiresome nagging about 'obey, obey, obey'.. my unanswered question is: why?.

  if they were the empire in star wars, i would expect to hear dark-robed members of the evil governing body muttering about " a disturbance in the force".. anyhow, what has changed to generate this sudden demand for obedience to their supposed authority?

  some years ago, they panicked after contributions collapsed in the 'voluntary donation arrangement'.

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  inbetween

  consfearacy said:

  "If there's an organization dedicated to this purpose, why should they be subjected to harsh and unreasonable criticism when new understanding is discovered?"

  my reply: that is not the issue. The problem of the org is, that they claim to be spirit directed, to be the only true religion, they demand strict obedience ("may we never question the FDS", "follow the FDS no matter what"), they sanction objection against their teaching harshly, they deny past wrong views and blame it on the flock, and so on..

  If they would humbly admit that they are often just guessing, and act accordingly, nobody would harshly or unreasonable critisize them...
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  74

  When Was The Last Time You Went To A Meeting?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i think it's been around 7 years for me.

  and i never ever missed going or being with the "friends"..

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  inbetween

  XPeterX - me too, 2 days ago...
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  46

  Pagan Origins

  by brotherdan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  so all of us that grew up as witnesses never did certain things because of them having pagan origins.

  why don't we celebrate christmas?

  pagan origins.

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  inbetween

  For the sake of argument:

  According to my old JW understanding: anything that is still religious and the same time of pagan origin is wrong.

  example: Christmas, still a religiuos festival today (mostly ) and has clear pagan connections (birth of sun, god Mithra etc)

  this I can compare to the calf worship in Israel, dedicated to God, but origins in Egyptian religion.

  on the other hand, I never understood the birthday thing, yes it is connected to pagan origins, but its not religious anymore, its the same as wedding rings, or make-up etc...

  I asked once about the thanksgiving, since there is no pagan origin at all, and they came up with some strange explanation about connection to nationalism...didnt make sense...
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  59

  Question for Titus

  by Albert Einstein in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  titus, you today made a statement regarding an essential wt doctrine: .

  i am an active jw.. can i tell you what that doctrine is?.

  bullshit!.

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  inbetween

  Titus: its up to you, but personally I´d like you to stay. Why ? This board is very interesting, I learned incredibly much, and I made some very beneficial internet-acquaintances. This board also benefits from its variety. IMHO it needs all kind of opinions, from bitter x-JW, to inactive ones, to those of the conscious class, even those apologists (like debator and BANE). All their differing opinions, experiences together helps to find out the facts and also the path for oneself.

  A little remark to your assessment about 97% right, 3% wrong.

  Its probably difficult to determine a percentage. Is it by the number of statements ? How would other Christian religions perform on such a scale ?

  maybe catholics are 60% right, and 40% wrong ? What about babstists ? 80 : 20 ratio ?

  When does it start to become the "truth" ? With 90 % ? or 95 %?

  How do you weigh certain things ? for example: Witnesses are right about trinity ? but wrong about 1914 ? What is more important ?

  or another example: witnesses are right about hellfire ? but wrong about blood issue ? what is heavier ? what caused more good or more harm ?

  If somebody was always scared about hellfire, becoming a JW might freed him from that, so he might view this as something important. On the other hand, what about somebody who lost his loved ones, because he/she refused a blood fraction, that is now allowed ? What counts more for him ?

  So to asses how much witnesses are right or wrong, it very much depends on the method of counting and even more so on personal experiences