Posts by inbetween

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

inbetween

for debator:

me (conscious class)´: the WTS teaches XYZ, while the bible says here ABC

(fanatic) witness: but here another scripture says XYZ

me: but the context of this scripture gives a different idea

witness: maybe, however, the FDS is Gods chosen channel, they know what is right

me: ok, but can they overstep scriptures ?

witness: no, all they teach is according to scripture

me: ok, so why is this scripture I showed you, not in line with WTS teaching ?

witness: you sound like an apostate, where did you get your idea ?

me: does it matter ? I just want to know, why WTS contradicts this scriptures

witness: we must never question Gods channel...

me: how to we know its Gods channel ?

witness: what ? of course the WTS is Gods channel, they have been teaching us the truth

me: what is truth ?

witness: hmm, everything in line with Gods word

me: okay, so why is then claim XYZ not in line with Gods word?

witness: the FDS warns us about independent thinking, trust them, not apostate ideas, or God will destroy you in A., period...I´m telling on you now...

3

Organized Social Entertainment

by Bangalore in

from the august 1960 issue of the kingdom ministry.. organized social entertainment.. 1 from one locality it is reported that there is a regular arranging of social events, not at the kingdom hall where such sociabilities are prohibited, but in halls rented on the outside, and that to these events the brothers of not only one congregation but of others in the vicinity are invited.

the motive for holding these parties is set forth as being to enable particularly the young folk of the congregations to get better acquainted with one another.

in one district there seems to be a trend in this direction of holding large-scale social affairs, ostensibly to increase inter-congregational acquaintanceship and to enjoy together several hours of relaxation and and to do so in a safe way so that no worldliness or no worldly elements insinuate themselves.. 2 the brothers responsible for such social gatherings on a large scale try to rationalize in behalf of the propriety of holding such social events.

inbetween

great find,

so really, always the same old, same old....

it seems like an endless cycle of ups und downs,

prizeless the argument in par. 6:

"The place for thus gathering together all the more so because the day is drawing near is the Kingdom Hall, where all those attending service centers during the week may gather"

50 years ago !!!

10

so on the "up" side...

by elderelite in

its a "worldly" holiday and both my daughter and i are at home, not in service.

i got up, made us breakfast, (sausage and eggs) and now i'm playing on jw net.. on the downside, my wife and son are out in service and i have to sit down and put together my service groups time and turn that in to the secretary... (although my son didnt want to go.. he complained "cant we just have a chill day".. i was going to let him stay home but he changed his mind to go see a friend who said he was also going out...).

all you active jw's... did you or are you going out..or are you ditching?.

inbetween

no service this weekend, we went shopping instead.....even though I dont know whats worse, field circus or shoe shopping with my wife

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

inbetween

very good story, thanks,

however, I try to figure out the difference between a "strawman" and a "red hering".

Is your story not rather a "red hering" ? Since the dentists might well be from the 3rd world countires, however, the real issue was, if baking soda is a good thing for cleaning teeth. So he led you on the wrong track, which a red hering is supposed to do.

quote Wikipedia:

Red herring

. A "red herring" is a deliberate attempt to divert a process of enquiry by changing the subject.

in opposite to a "strawman"

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person A has position X.
Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially-similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted. [ 1 ]
Quoting an opponent's words out of context – i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining). [ 2 ]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments – thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated. [ 1 ]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

In your case, if the dentist said, that some claim, baking soda is the best for "whitening" teeth (which you did not say, you said "cleaning" ), and then refutes this claim, this would be a strawman according to my understanding.

Sorry, no offense, i just try to understand logical fallacies myself.

However, i totally agree, the WTS uses both fallacies regularly, and sadly also most witnesses learned how to apply this dishonsest methods, even though they are not aware of it. which is even worse, because they deceive themselves (I did too before !)

inbetween

12

Violence Training

by MrFreeze in

did anybody notice the paragraph in today's study edition that pretty much said that "violent video games and movies are training people to be violent towards each other during the great tribulation".. i really had to do my best to not laugh when i read this.

i don't know if any of you watch penn & teller's show.

they did a show on violent video games and their effect.

inbetween

strange WT study alltogether anyway,

admittedly, some kind of modern entertainment goes overboard with graphic gore and violence, even "worldly" people agree on that...

however, if you make a movie exactly according to the bible, it would be R-rated for sure...

The statement of the WT, violence in modern entertainmen tis training people to slaughter themselves in big A is weird.

Training ( or here molding, conditioning) usually has a goal, a purpose, this must be, as the world is in Satans hand, from Satan himself. So he is training his people, so they can fulfill biblical prophecy of Zecharaiah 14 ?

Another thought, if the big issue is, that mankind is not able to rule itself without god, than this issue is not answered either, because mankind does not rule itself, it is ruled by satan...so in fact mankind never had the chance to rule itself...how does this answer the issue of universal souvereignty ?..

and if the rule of satan should be in any way a competition to Gods rule, should we not expect to have a better world, since any badness proves satan a lier and just gives evidence in favour of God ?

..my head hurts....

125

Adam and Eve and free will

by inbetween in

pondering over this dilemma:.

lets just say, for arguments sake, the report in genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event:.

watchtower teaches, that adam sinned, because he used his free will to disobey.. god grants free will to his human creation, because he wants them to serve him out of love.. ok, good, but i give an example: i meet a girl, tell her, she is free to love me, but if not, i kill her.. would you call this free will ?.

inbetween

wow, the thread picked up .....

anyway, thanks, interesting replies...

Regarding the tree of life: i discussed it once with an interested person, he had the idea, that humans got a kind of inner clock, that ticks towards death, and by eating the from the tree of life, they can set it to zero again. Once they turned against God, they were denied access to this tree, and therefore slowly died.

Sounded interesting, but I checked the insight book, were this idea was repulsed.

But what real function did the tree of life have ? To give them eventually immortality, as the WT explains ? Ok, so then this period of time before would be a test from God, but God doesnt try anyone according to James ?

Regarding free will: Clearly God was upset about the decision of Adam and Eve, because he banned them from Eden, and it was necessary, as Paul states, that mankind becomes reconciled with God again.

But what really is free will ? Of course, on a daily basis we usually claim, that we make decisons consciously and free, however is this really the case ?

For example, I walk into a store to buy a shirt. There is a wide selection, and from all them I pick lets say a blue Ralp Lauren shirt. I go home and think I made a real decision out of free will. But is this the case ? Maybe I bought the shirt because I like blue (from childhood on), I like the cut of Ralph lauren, because it reminds me subconscioulsy of something I feel comfortable with, I finally bought it, because the music in the store is designed to encourage sells, etc...

So in the end, my so to say free will decision, was only a product of my upbringing, genetic disposition, influences from envrionment etc...just afterwards I claim, it was my free decsion, when it was not.

3

the weekly meetings

by cskyjw.sun in

know that the 5 weekly meetings have been cut into 4.but locally in my region,they retain the congregation book study.during midweek they will have 3 meetings instead.

( its duration is 1hr45min).

inbetween

there used to be 5 meetings, held on 3 different days usually:

Bookstudy - 1 day

Watchtower study + public address - 1 day

Theocratic school + service meeting - 1 day

since 2009 they simply combined a shortened bookstudy with a shortened theocratic school and service meeting, so that technically all 5 meetings remained, just being on 2 days instead of three.

hope that helps...

125

Adam and Eve and free will

by inbetween in

pondering over this dilemma:.

lets just say, for arguments sake, the report in genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event:.

watchtower teaches, that adam sinned, because he used his free will to disobey.. god grants free will to his human creation, because he wants them to serve him out of love.. ok, good, but i give an example: i meet a girl, tell her, she is free to love me, but if not, i kill her.. would you call this free will ?.

inbetween

Pondering over this dilemma:

Lets just say, for arguments sake, the report in Genesis about the first humans is not an allegory, but a true event:

Watchtower teaches, that Adam sinned, because he used his free will to disobey.

God grants free will to his human creation, because he wants them to serve him out of love.

ok, good, but I give an example: I meet a girl, tell her, she is free to love me, but if not, I kill her.

Would you call this free will ?

Of course, JW may say, God did not kill them, they just suffered the consequences of their behaviour.

But it comes to the same: Who set the conditions for the consequence of disobedience ? God again.

real free will would have granted Adam and Eve eternal life, without god, he would not be upset, because he leaves it up to them to decide.

Somehow the concept of sin in connection with free will doesnt really make sense to me.

33

Branch offices in Europe are closing

by Samuel Thorsen in

jw
friends

i have from a safe source that the bethel branch office in austria, ireland, italy and switzerland are closing down in the near future.

most of the business will be taken care of from the german bethel.

nothing is said thru official channels yet, but there is no reason to doubt my source.. can anyone tell more about this topic?.

inbetween

yes its true, they are closing several branches in Europe, what i heard, at the end of the year...and Selters takes over.

its propbaly reasonable from a business point of view.

However, it will be conveyed to the bros as blessing from Jehovah.....

32

What Is The Watchtower Afraid Of?

by metatron in

jw
friends

if you follow the current nonsense being taught by the society, in its latest magazines and assembly parts, there seems to be a dominant theme about near worship of the "faithful slave" and tiresome nagging about 'obey, obey, obey'.. my unanswered question is: why?.

if they were the empire in star wars, i would expect to hear dark-robed members of the evil governing body muttering about " a disturbance in the force".. anyhow, what has changed to generate this sudden demand for obedience to their supposed authority?

some years ago, they panicked after contributions collapsed in the 'voluntary donation arrangement'.

inbetween

consfearacy said:

"If there's an organization dedicated to this purpose, why should they be subjected to harsh and unreasonable criticism when new understanding is discovered?"

my reply: that is not the issue. The problem of the org is, that they claim to be spirit directed, to be the only true religion, they demand strict obedience ("may we never question the FDS", "follow the FDS no matter what"), they sanction objection against their teaching harshly, they deny past wrong views and blame it on the flock, and so on..

If they would humbly admit that they are often just guessing, and act accordingly, nobody would harshly or unreasonable critisize them...