Gary, thanks for the tip. I really appreciate it.
Posts by dgp
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34Christmas, the worst time of year for Jehovah's Witnesses
by koolaid-man inthe holidays are here and they certainly do present a problem for jehovah's witnesses once again.
christmas parties at work, getting christmas bonuses, dealing with holiday greetings, christmas carols, decorated trees and houses, santa claus everywhere, christmas candy, sleighbells ringing brings the witnesses into a very troubling and disturbing time of year.how do most witnesses handle it all?
we will be discussing these questions with former witnesses and active witnesses on the conference call this saturday night, december 19,2009 at 7 p.m. the conference call is presented like a radio talk show program.
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Just had really funny conversation with an elder!
by LucyA inmy mother doesn't even try and broach the subject of me becoming a jw anymore because she knows i wont speak to her for months if she tries.
what she does do is get the elders to call me.. an elder just called me as i was downloading some evidence of evolution and happened to mention this to him and he said and i quote.
"oh you dont need to research crap like that i already did and the whole theory is crap" thats it no evidence to back up the statement he just made he just expected me to agree.
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dgp
Good for you
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72
February 2010 Study Watchtower - Millions Now Living 'May' Never Die
by Marni Mai injust noticed that in the february 2010 study edition of the watchtower, they refer to the "millions now living will never die" talk in 1918, but they have changed the title to "millions now living may never die".
only problem, they included the picture of the invitation to the talk, which says 'will'.. ooops.
it's on page 16. enjoy.. .
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dgp
Would anyone please tell me how I can get the PDF file of that Watchtower? Thank you in advance.
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NEW LIGHT in the Darkness of Space !
by KnowlegeSeeker_UK ini was staying with relatives for the holidays this weekend.
i chose to walk away after years of 'worship' including pioneering and being a bethelite.
(see old post) anyway i was reading the societies website where i stumbled on new light that no one else has picked up on or read.
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dgp
Knowledge-Seeker, I find several misleading ideas in the article on that link. What is worse, however, is that the "new light" will supersede the "old light" and everyone will be happy with it. Just as they believed one thing the day before, they will believe otherwise now.
About the misleading ideas, I would like to start wit this: what the WTBTS is NOT what the Bible says. It's about time we don't confuse one with the other. The WTBTS is an organization whose primary objective is surviving, no matter how. The Bible is a set of books which many people read in many different ways, and ALL organizations claim that their own particular way of understanding the Bible is "what the Bible says". This is a very subtle point, but one that matters a lot, because we cannot start our understanding of this article if we assume what the WTBTS still needs to prove, namely, that what the WTBTS says is what the Bible says.
Now let's discuss what the WTBTS says in the article.
"The Genesis account opens with the simple, powerful statement: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1) Bible scholars agree that this verse describes an action separate from the creative days recounted from verse 3 onward. The implication is profound. According to the Bible’s opening statement, the universe, including our planet Earth, was in existence for an indefinite time before the creative days began." I would like the writer of the magazine to please explain how something existed BEFORE it was created. Either we agree that God created the Earth, or we disagree. What we have here is something like an "in-between", a "yes-no". "God created everything in an indeterminate period of time, only everything existed BEFORE that time". The obvious question is, did God create anything at all?
According to the WTBTS,
"MANY people claim that science disproves the Bible’s account of creation. But the real contradiction is between science and, not the Bible, but the opinions of so-called Christian Fundamentalists. Some of these groups falsely assert that according to the Bible, all physical creation was produced in six 24-hour days some 10,000 years ago.
The Bible, however, does not support such a conclusion. If it did, then many scientific discoveries over the past hundred years would indeed discredit the Bible. A careful study of the Bible text reveals no conflict with established scientific facts"
Here, the "established scientific facts" are a hell of a big hole, the size of the Universe, and anything can pass through there. If you claim, for example, that science has not proved that God exists at all, the WTBTS will claim that science can't disprove his existence either. The misleading part is, science doesn't believe anything exists unless there is proof of it. It doesn't believe that something exists because no one has disproved it. Science only considers true what it can prove to be true. If we told the WTBTS that there is no proof God exists, the WTBTS would say that such a statement is NOT an "established scientific fact", and that would be the springboard from which the WTBTS would go on to say that "God exists". What we see here is a way to say "we are in agreement with science" when in fact they are not.
Now, let's see what the article says about evolution:
"Does this progressive appearance of plants and animals imply that God used evolution to produce the vast diversity of living things? No. The record clearly states that God created all the basic “kinds” of plant and animal life. (Genesis 1:11, 12, 20-25) Were these original “kinds” of plants and animals programmed with the ability to adapt to changing environmental conditions? What defines the boundary of a “kind”? The Bible does not say. However, it does state that living creatures “swarmed forth according to their kinds.” (Genesis 1:21) This statement implies that there is a limit to the amount of variation that can occur within a “kind.” Both the fossil record and modern research support the idea that the fundamental categories of plants and animals have changed little over vast periods of time."
Scientists believes in evolution, and they don't hold that there were many "kinds" of organisms to begin with, but "prokaryotes" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis). Do I detect a contradiction between what the organization says, and what science says? The idea is that the prokaryotes eventually came to be different, and then they were evolving into the many life forms we see today. Science doesn't hold life began with many "kinds" of animals and plants that came into being at once.
There is little of the scientific way of proving things in the following paragraph:
"Because of their philosophical beliefs, many scientists reject the Bible’s declaration that God created all things. Interestingly, however, in the ancient Bible book of Genesis, Moses wrote that the universe had a beginning and that life appeared in stages, progressively, over periods of time. How could Moses gain access to such scientifically accurate information some 3,500 years ago? There is one logical explanation. The One with the power and wisdom to create the heavens and the earth could certainly give Moses such advanced knowledge."
The problem here is that the "logical explanation" is not proved. Ergo, in scientific terms, it is invalid. We don't know whether it happened that way, so we don't hold it to have happened that way.
By the way, unless I am wrong, Moses is believed to have written not only the Genesis, but the entire Pentateuch. In the WTBTS's own New World Translation, the following text is found at Deuteronomy 34, verses 10 to 12:
"And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hand upon him; and the sons of Israel began to listen to him and they went doing just as Jehovah had commanded Moses. 10 But there has never yet risen up a prophet in Israel like Moses, whom Jehovah knew face to face, 11 as respects all the signs and the miracles that Jehovah sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Phar´aoh and all his servants and all his land, 12 and as regards all the strong hand and all the great awesomeness that Moses exercised before the eyes of all Israel."
"There has never yet risen up a prophet in Israel like Moses" reveals that, whoever it was who wrote Deuteronomy, and whenever it was written, some time HAD elapsed since the death of Moses, or it would be impossible to utter that very phrase. So, did Moses write the Deuteronomy? Here I see a contradiction between what the WTBTS says and what the Bible says. Their Bible, by the way. I invite anyone to check that out: http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=de;chp=1
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Woman died after refusing transfusion (Belfast)
by BluesBrother inhttp://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/woman-died-after-refusing-transfusion-14604429.html.
saturday, 19 december 2009. a jehovah's witness who refused a blood transfusion in hospital had a 98% chance of surviving the bleed that killed her - if she had been given the procedure, an inquest was told yesterday.
grieving husband philip baxter said his wife anita (56) did not want to die but did not want a blood transfusion.. a coroner has called for hospitals to consider seeking a court ruling in similar contexts, where a patient refuses blood on religious grounds.. mrs baxter, of naas, co kildare, died of acute cardiac failure caused by blood problems in tallaght hospital on september 15, 2009. the jehovah's witness died five days after surgery to remove a tumour from her colon, after which she suffered significant bleeding.. surgeon diarmuid o'riordan told the inquest there was a 98% to 99% chance she would have survived if she was given the appropriate blood transfusion.. dublin county coroner's court heard yesterday that mrs baxter signed an informed consent form stating she didn't want blood, even as a life-saving measure.
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dgp
It's so sad that another person died when her life could have been spared.
Wobble, I think all governments should enforce a law forbidding people to deny or refuse ANY life-saving treatment to a minor child. It is very clear that the best interest of the child is to live, whatever the parents say about it.
It should also be made mandatory to save the life of ANYONE who is not conscious or is not legally of sound mind.
I know this has undertones and points of view, but I fail to see how parents can refuse treatment for, say, a nine-month old child. MAKES NO SENSE!
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7
The end of my music choices SUPERTRAMP
by cantleave incrime of the century.
the logical song.
school.
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dgp
Breakfast in America?
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34
Christmas, the worst time of year for Jehovah's Witnesses
by koolaid-man inthe holidays are here and they certainly do present a problem for jehovah's witnesses once again.
christmas parties at work, getting christmas bonuses, dealing with holiday greetings, christmas carols, decorated trees and houses, santa claus everywhere, christmas candy, sleighbells ringing brings the witnesses into a very troubling and disturbing time of year.how do most witnesses handle it all?
we will be discussing these questions with former witnesses and active witnesses on the conference call this saturday night, december 19,2009 at 7 p.m. the conference call is presented like a radio talk show program.
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dgp
Well, Christmas is a bad time for this unbeliever, because he won't be seeing the Witness he loves, and because he can't give her a present. Pagan or not, love is always the same feeling...
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17
I just read chapter 4 of Combatting Cult Mind Control and...
by doublelife inwow.
it's strange because even though i decided in sept that this is a false religion, it's still a little overwhelming to read this chapter.
if cult members have two identities, then where is my other identity?
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dgp
I've been thinking about it and my experience with a born-in can be described as "two personalities", yes. One of the personalities is the good, caring, human one, the one where the person lets her heart take over and can do wonderful things. The other personality is uptight and merciless. It's difficult to believe it's the same person. I have seen both personalities fighting each other. If it gives anyone hope, may I say that my having seen the good side of her fighting the bad side is what keeps me going ,
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I just read chapter 4 of Combatting Cult Mind Control and...
by doublelife inwow.
it's strange because even though i decided in sept that this is a false religion, it's still a little overwhelming to read this chapter.
if cult members have two identities, then where is my other identity?
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dgp
I'm reading that book myself. I read that chapter yesterday. I agree with On The Way. Hassan should have said "non-cult personality" and "cult personality". I'm afraid his book is very much centered in rescuing converts, not so much born-ins. I am happy to read, however, that even born-ins have something non-cultic they can relate to.
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What can a divorced woman in her forties expect if she stays in the WT?
by dgp inpeople, another question from me.
i thank everyone in advance for their posts.. i know this is a difficult question, and perhaps one no one can answer.
but, let me post it anyways.
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dgp
EmptyInside, I do encourage you to continue questioning everything. Not just because you're approaching your forties, but because that is such a healthy thing to do. We all should learn to defend our own freedom and our own lives from ideas and systems of beliefs that destroy us. I am happy to think that my own personal freedom is safer now, on the basis of seeing what has happened with hers.
Leave, EmptyInside. Dare to be free. Don't make the same mistake this sister of yours is making. You have many years ahead of you; enjoy them in full. Believe me, you have nothing to fear by leaving the organization.
In a way, it's a good thing to learn that women in the organization do question their status. I am sure she is questioning hers. I also believe that she is going deeper into the society, to placate those doubts. I'm afraid she will burn out, but my hands are tied.
I will appreciate any more thoughts on this issue. Thank you all.