Posts by James

19

Resurrection... to what TYPE of body?

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

there is a bit of a debate about the resurrection, and to what type of body people will be resurrected to.

it is quite simple, and encompasses two resurrections: the 'first' resurrection... and the general resurrection.. 1. the 'first' resurrection -.

James

To Aguest

thank you for your Post. What I don’t understand is that you say ‘ Adam had a body like that of my Lord..one that could go ‘in and out’ of the spirit/physical realm’. If it was so, why does Genesis 2:21 reports about the creation of Eve:" ..(Jehovah) took one of his (Adam) ribs and then closed up THE FLESH over its place". There are actually no evidences in the Scriptures that God created Adam and Eve with such a ‘spiritual’ body, even though the Bible says that ‘God created them in His image’.

The physical body was not a consequence of the fall, because before they sinned, God himself blessed them and ordered ‘to be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it’. If they received this blessing in their ‘spiritual’ state, then of course the reproduction of an offspring was a part of this kind of life. And we can conclude, if it is true what you said about those bodies, that the ‘spiritual’ bodies were created male and female and to survive they needed to eat of the fruits in the garden.

According to the inspired record in the Genesis, God made the first man out of the DUST. Earthly, physical, but with the prospective of eternal life. And the first woman was made out of Adam’s body. Also earthly, physical!

In your link about spiritual creatures you said that they din’t have organs. So I ask you, were organs in Adam’s body or he received them when he first sinned? If Adam received the command to eat the fruits in the Garden which were permitted, before he sinned against God, then we must conclude, that he was created with organs, as well all humans have, but perfect ones. So what I want to say, is that his beginning was in the perfect HUMAN, EARTHLY LIFE. The perspective of eternal life, in an higher dimension, was only future.

But you consider the garment God gave Adam after the fall as a reward! You cannot compare it with the 'white robe' given to the FAITHFUL ONES!

That’s why I think that what you said about Adam’s body is not scriptural. I have reread the words of the apostle Paul to the Corinthians in the chapt. 15:45-49 several times, but the logical conclusion is only one:
„It is so written:’the first man Adam became a living soul’. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. Nevertheless, the first is, NOT THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUAL, but that which IS PHYSICAL, afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is OUT OF THE EARTH and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven........And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one."

This what the Bible says and nobody can deny it. The first man Adam was made out of dust, out of the earth. Not as a spiritual creature. And as a physical perfect human he was submitted to the natural laws of the creation. The reward of the tree of life was something future, depending on his obedience to God.

That is also the point which the apostle Paul was teaching to the corinthian Christians: As the seed of plants must die to give the life to the plant, which carries in it all the features and characteristics of the seed, a life in a far more glorious way and image, so our bodies must die to put on that one which is from heaven, because our mortal body is not suited to survive in heaven (1.Corinth. 15:35-41).

When Paul said that we will be changed, used the words ‘we must put on’ immortality.. and so on. Robertsons in his Word Pictures in the New Testament says about this verb:" Must put on (dei endusasthai). Aorist (ingressive) middle infinitive, put on as a garment." You called it ‘white robe’ and this is also what the Revelation calls it, having been given as a garment to the resurrected ones.

This reminds to me the words in Philippians 3:20:
„ As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens, from which place also we are eagerly waiting for a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body according to the operation of the power that he has, even to subject all things to himself."

My conclusion is this:
There is nothing wrong in discussing what the Bible really says about this subject. But don’t you agree with me, that the ‘problem’ of HOW it will really look like, is not our task but is something which the Lord will decide in His own authority? I think you will agree. And let us encourage one another , and all the more so as we behold the day drawing near.

May the God of peace be with you.

James

19

Resurrection... to what TYPE of body?

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

there is a bit of a debate about the resurrection, and to what type of body people will be resurrected to.

it is quite simple, and encompasses two resurrections: the 'first' resurrection... and the general resurrection.. 1. the 'first' resurrection -.

James

To AGuest and to Agape

About this debate of the resurrection, I’ve made some researches in the Bible and would like to share them with you all.

I come to the conclusion that the body Jesus had at the resurrection must have been the same body he had on the cross, but no more a NATURAL, MORTAL one. According to the Bible record, there cannot be another way to explain how He did appear to the disciples. The disciple Luke in his gospel chapter 24, verses 36-43 says:
„ While they were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘ May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were IMAGINING they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘ Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that IT IS MYSELF; feel me and see, BECAUSE A SPIRIT ( pneuma) DOES NOT HAVE FLESH and BONES just as you behold that I HAVE.’ And as he said this he showed them his hands and his feet. But while they were still not believing for sheer joy and were wondering, he said to them: ‘ Do you have something there to eat?’ And they handed him a piece of broiled fish; and HE TOOK IT AND ATE IT BEFORE THEIR EYES."

A similar narrative was already quoted, namely when the resurrected Jesus said to Thomas: ‘ Put your finger here and see my hands..’. John 20:26-29. Another one when he met the apostles, while they were fishing in the sea of Tiberias. See John 21: 1-14

Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible, says about:

"It should seem that though Christ’s body, after his resurrection, was the very same body in which he suffered and died, as appeared by the marks in it, yet it was so far changed as to become either visible or not visible as he thought fit to make it, which was a step towards its being made a glorious body. As soon as he had given his disciples one glimpse of him he was gone presently. They were terrified, supposing that they had seen a spirit, because he came in among them without any noise, and was in the midst of them ere they were aware. The word used (Mt. 14:26), when they said It is a spirit, is phantasma , it is a spectre, an apparition; but the word here used is pneuma , the word that properly signifies a spirit; they supposed it to be a spirit not clothed with a real body."

It is logical and scriptural. Jesus could not prove His resurrection to the apostles if He was resurrected like a spirit. They would have never believed it. But by touching His wounds and seeing Him eating with them, they had the real proof of His resurrection. Interestingly Jesus was capable of going beyond time and space. He could entry in the room, even though the door was closed. Suddenly ‘He stood in their midst’. He had the same features of His former body, but now one capable to overcome the laws of nature and space; yes supernatural. A ‘spiritual’ one, namely made to fit heaven.

Robertson’s Word Pictures of the New Testament says:
„In the case of Christ this change from the natural body to the spiritual body was wrought in less than three days and even then the body of Jesus was in a transition state before the ascension. He ate and could be handled and yet passed through closed doors."

This transition state ended when He ascended to the Father. His body was then glorified, that is it reached another level of glory or dimension, much higher then when He appeared to the apostles. About this Paul wrote to the Hebrews, chap. 2:9: „ But we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels (in his natural body), CROWNED WITH GLORY AND HONOR for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every man."

Nevertheless He kept His human features and characteristic. Why? you may ask. Because HE WAS AND STILL REMAINS THE ‘SON OF MAN’. Did not Jesus himself foretell:" Then they will see the SON OF MAN coming on the clouds...?

The next record of Jesus appearings after the ascension to heaven, is written in Acts chap. 9, when „suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him (Saul=Paul)." This may indicate that He had now been glorified in heaven. Additionally in the Revelation to John, chap. 1:12-17, Jesus appeared as a glorious one, SOMEONE LIKE A SON OF MAN ( - So much about Jesus - )

Now the question arises about those who will be resurrected in like manner as Jesus did.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:50, 51:" ..that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. We shall all be CHANGED..)."

So I think, that if our fleshly body cannot inherit heaven, in other words, is not fitting for living in heaven, then we will have to put on at the resurrection, a ‘spiritual’ body, namely one which has the human features and characteristics, but immortal, glorious. This point was the main truth Paul wrote to the Corinthians, in the same chapter as above, verses 35-49:

· Vers 40: „ and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort".
· Vers 42:" So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption."
· Vers 44:" It is sown a physical (natural) body, it is raised up a spiritual body."
· Vers 49:" And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust (Adam), we shal bear also the image of the heavenly one (the resurrected Jesus)."

· Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

„The resurrection body is not wholly pneuma. Caution is needed here in filling out details concerning the psyche and the pneuma. But certainly he means to say that the "spiritual body" has some kind of germinal connection with the "natural body," though the development is glorious beyond our comprehension though not beyond the power of Christ to perform (Philippians 3:21). „

· Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

„If it be a different body, how can the personal identity be preserved? Paul answers, In one sense it will be the same body, in another, a distinct body. It will be a body, but a spiritual, not a natural, body."

I think that we don’t really know exactly how it will look like, but the Bible speaks of a living after the resurrection in a dimension which is not as we live today on earth. I mean that in the New Jerusalem (Revelation chapp. 21, 22) where also the old faithful ones will reside (Hebrew 11:10, 16), the slaves of God are said to ‘render Him sacred service; and they will see his face’! We could not survive this view with our natural bodies. That’s why I believe we will receive at the resurrection, or will have to put on, a ‘spiritual’ immortal body, namely one which has, yes, his germ with human characteristics and features, but fitting for living in a different dimension than in our present day earth.

Romans 11:33:
„O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and past tracing out his ways are!"

With christian love
James

25

True Prophecy

by littleone in

"for no matter how many the promises of god are, they have become yes by means of him.

therefore also through him is the "amen" [said] to god for glory through us.

"-2 cor 1:20.

James

To Littleone

It is true that we pray to the Father in Jesus’ name. But it is also true that Jesus himself said these Words to his disciples in the night he was betrayed :
„Also whatever it is that you ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son. If you ask ME anything in my name I will do it." John 14:13,14 (Interlinear Translation, 1969)

Because I know the WT since more then 40 years, I can see a difference between what was (is beeing) told and what is really the teaching of the Scriptures, the Word of God! We were not allowed to address our prayers to Jesus. Why?!
Because ALL the enphasis was to be given only to the name Jehovah. (When did you hear speaking about Jesus as our Lord the last time at the meetings..??)
But according to the original Text, the greek one, we see that Jesus himself said we CAN address our prayers to him, and ‘He will do this (hear our prayer and giving us what we need) IN ORDER THAT THE FATHER MAY BE GLORIFIED IN CONNECTION WITH THE SON’. John 14:13

That’s why I don’t believe that the question should be: ‘ Either Jehovah, or Jesus’, because we cannot absolute separate the both from each other. Or prefere the one and exclude the other one.

The perfect union of the Son with the Father is shown in a remarkable way in the Gospel of John.

I do agree with Aaron when he says:’ we need to know our ‘place’ in relation with the Father. The best example was given by the first disciples. Even though they were already as a people in a covenant with Jehovah through the mosaic Law, it was necessary to believe and bear witness about Jesus, as the One sent by God to redeem them. But Jesus din’t spent the time on earth preaching his own religion, his own ideas. NO.

What he did on earth, or what he taught to the people, were the WORKS and WORDS OF GOD!

Please, read the Gospel of John. But please read it very attentive! I could open my ‘spiritual’ eyes only reading this Gospel.

John 5:19:" ..Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds THE FATHER DOING. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son ALSO does in like manner."

John 14:7:"If you men had known ME, you would have known my FATHER also....."

John 14:10:" Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you men I do not speak of my own originality; but THE FATHER who remains in union with me IS DOING HIS WORKS."

John 1:18:" No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god (Jesus Christ) who is in the bosom position with the Father is THE ONE THAT HAS EXPLAINED HIM."

When Thomas asked Jesus about the way to the Father:"How do we know the way?" Jesus answered:"I am the way....no one comes to the Father except through me."

I believe that everyone of us wants to go to the Father.
JESUS is the way. There IS NOT ANOTHER ONE.
So let’s go FIRST to Jesus and learn from Him the things about the Father. And only then HE WILL LEAD US TO THE FATHER.

John 14:21:" He that has my commandaments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. IN TURN HE THAT LOVES ME WILL BE LOVED BY MY FATHER, and I will love him and plainly show myself to him."

James

25

True Prophecy

by littleone in

"for no matter how many the promises of god are, they have become yes by means of him.

therefore also through him is the "amen" [said] to god for glory through us.

"-2 cor 1:20.

James

To littleone

(this was my Post in the topic about the 'Israel of God', time ago. I think it can be a contribution to what you said! Good so!)

The founder and first editor of the WT magazine, C.T. Russel, was not unaware of the history of deviation of the early christian congregation from an original simple brotherhood into an institutionalized religion with a centralized structure. Already at his beginning the president stressed the need of modern day christians not to follow the existing religious organizations, which had ist distinctive set of teachings, that all must adopt to be recognized members.
These points were in part quoted in the WT magazine of March 1, 1979:" (quoting from the WT magazine of 1884) New readers in all parts of the country are constantly inquiring: By what names do you call yourselves?".. and quoting from the WT of February 1884:"We belong to no earthly organization;...All the saints now living or have lived during this age belonged to our church organization: such are all ONR CHURCH, and there is no other recognized by the Lord. Hence any earthly organization which in the least interferes with this union of saints is contrary to the teachings of Scripture and opposed to the Lord’s will - ‘that they may be one’. (John 17:11)"
What the writer of the WT magazine of March 1, 1979, forgot (?) to quote, were the other points of the 1884 article:" By what name may this Church be called? We answer, By the name of ist founder and instituter - Christ -.....And so, by whatsoever names men may call us, it matters not to us;..we call ourselves simply Christians and we raise no fence to separate from us any who believe in the foundation Stone of our building [Christ]..".
This attitude continued for decades later, as showed in the WT September 15, 1895:
„Beware of organization: It is wholly unnecessary..Do not seek to bind others consciences and do not permit others to bind yours." Russel and his early associates were actually anti-earthly organization! Most of modern day JW don’t know at all these things and they aren’t encouraged to read his writings

Unfortunately years later was the same man led to believe that he was the sole channel of God to
give them ‘food for the proper time’.But after his death, starting from the second president of the WT, Rutherford, the efforts and goals were no more the simply provide and publishing of the ‘message’. The Society received the authority of international supervision over the ‘congregations’. These ‘Bible Students’ had to be unified in a group so as to become one people; Yes [UNITY AT ALL COSTS]. (This expression was made by the former legal counsel of the Society, Hayden C. Covington in a court trial held in Scotland, back in 1954, known as ‘the Walsh case’)

One of the beliefs that shocked me was the ‘new understanding’ in 1995 of Jesus’ parable of the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46. I still remember as for years, since 1958, we studied with people the book „From Paradise lost to Paradise regained" We imagined ourselves engaged in a worldwide „separating work" based on the understanding of the WT. We were told that „after Jesus became King in heaven 1914, HE would put apart sheep from goats. And the King rests his decision on how the people treat his spiritual ‘brothers’ and how they accept the good news of the Kingdom that his spiritual brothers preach". (Page 200) Now, since 1995, we are told that this separating work has not begun as yet! The WT October 1995, page 22, says:" In other words the parable points to the FUTURE, when the Son of Man will come in his glory. He will sit down to judge people then living. His judgement will be based on what they have manifested themselves to be. At that time ‘the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one will have been clearly established"...

We have been preaching all the years along to the people, that they had to take NOW a decision, because we are living in the last days of the ‘Time of the End’, accepting God’s only organization on earth and get baptized, otherwise they would belong to the goats and be destructed at Harmaggedon! And now we hear the WT has ‘adjusted’ his understanding of this parable, as well as the generation of 1914.

I really see in this kind of mindset that has dominated and is still dominating the WT as :’ we haven’t been right, but we’ve never been wrong’ the evidence of not qualifying to be the ‘mouthpiece of God’ or ‘the chosen people’. In my last response I said that Jehovah God can have everywhere in the world people who believe in His Son Jesus Christ and are living according to the Truth of His Word.

In the book „Paul’s idea of Community", page 48, is written about the first christians:"These scattered Christians group did nor express their unity by fashioning a corporate organization, but rather through a network of personal contacts between people who regarded themselves as members of the same christian family."

As in the first century, when the Jewish people did not accept the Son of God, so it will surely be in modern day. They had found a sense of security in their religious guides and buildings, a sense of righteousness these had brought them. But they experienced an abrupt and painful awakening! I believe that we can avoid this experience in our lives, we should do like the apostles answering to the religious governing body of that time, and said:"OBEDIENCE TO GOD COMES BEFORE OBEDIENCE TO MEN." Acts 5:27-29

James

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

James

To Jr

By means of His prophet Hosea, Jehovah foretold that He would reject the nation of natural Israel in favor of a ‘spiritual nation’, which includes Gentiles:
„And I shall certainly sow her like seed for me in the earth, and I will show mercy to her who was not shown mercy, and I will say to those not my people::’You are my people’ and they for their part, will say:’You are my God." Hosea 2:23

And through Jesajah (10:21) was foretold about the natural Israelites: „ A mere remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God."

I do agree that Jehovah would fulfill His purpose, even though the natural Israel became unfaithful. And His way was, that he would open to the gentiles the opportunity to become His people, the ‘spiritual Israel’. This was foretold from old, through His prophets.

It all began, when the apostle Peter was lead to Cornelius, the first gentile, who got the opportunity to join the ‘remnant’ of the Jews, who accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. Later on, through the apostle Paul, the Holy Spirit brought thousands of Gentiles to the christian congregation, so that Paul could write to the galatians:"And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God".(Gal. 6:16)

If we read this Letter to the Galatians, we will see that the right to belong to this ‘spiritual Israel', was not due to a fleshly right, being a natural Jew, because Paul says:"Moreover, if YOU BELONG TO CHRIST, you are REALLY Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise." Gal. 3:29

In the congregation of the galatians, as well in Rome, there were christian Jews, who pretended that the gentiles joining the christian congregation should observe the mosaic Law and let them be circumcised. Paul enphasized the point when he wrote to the Romans, chap. 2:28, 29:" For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside (through circumcision), nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.".

Reading the whole letter to the Romans, we can see that the promises from old, were to be applied to new people, the ‘spiritual Israel’ of God, through the New Mediator, Jesus Christ, and not through the observing of the mosaic Law, but rather through faith in Jesus Christ. (Rom. 9:6-29)

Since then Jehovah has’nt changed His purpose. We are also living in a time, when the opportunity to belong BY SPIRIT to this ‘Israel of God’ is still given to all mankind, including natural Jews. That’s why I believe, Jehovah is fulfilling those prophecies from old in the Christian Congregation. Not due to presumption, or bearing ‘The Name’ as a 'label', or in an organization of men, but BY HIS SPIRIT, this ‘Spiritual Israel’ is all over the world, and we are unified not by the power of men, but by the power of the Holy Spirit.

John Darby’s Commentary says about Galatians 6:16:" To the believer the world has its true character; for in fact, in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value (all that has passed away with dead Christ), but a new creature, according to which we estimate everything as God estimates it. It is to such, the true children of God, that the apostle wishes peace. It was not Israel circumcised after the flesh that was the Israel of God. If there were any of that people who were circumcised in heart, who gloried in the cross according to the sentiments of the new creature, those were the Israel of God. Moreover every true christian was of them according to the spirit of his walk."

So I do believe in the modern 'spiritual Israel' and this is not a man made organization. Do you believe it also?

James

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

James

The founder and first editor of the WT magazine, C.T. Russel, was not unaware of the history of deviation of the early christian congregation from an original simple brotherhood into an institutionalized religion with a centralized structure. Already at his beginning the president stressed the need of modern day christians not to follow the existing religious organizations, which had ist distinctive set of teachings, that all must adopt to be recognized members.
These points were in part quoted in the WT magazine of March 1, 1979:" (quoting from the WT magazine of 1884) New readers in all parts of the country are constantly inquiring: By what names do you call yourselves?".. and quoting from the WT of February 1884:"We belong to no earthly organization;...All the saints now living or have lived during this age belonged to our church organization: such are all ONR CHURCH, and there is no other recognized by the Lord. Hence any earthly organization which in the least interferes with this union of saints is contrary to the teachings of Scripture and opposed to the Lord’s will - ‘that they may be one’. (John 17:11)"
What the writer of the WT magazine of March 1, 1979, forgot (?) to quote, were the other points of the 1884 article:" By what name may this Church be called? We answer, By the name of ist founder and instituter - Christ -.....And so, by whatsoever names men may call us, it matters not to us;..we call ourselves simply Christians and we raise no fence to separate from us any who believe in the foundation Stone of our building [Christ]..".
This attitude continued for decades later, as showed in the WT September 15, 1895:
„Beware of organization: It is wholly unnecessary..Do not seek to bind others consciences and do not permit others to bind yours." Russel and his early associates were actually anti-earthly organization! Most of modern day JW don’t know at all these things and they aren’t encouraged to read his writings

Unfortunately years later was the same man led to believe that he was the sole channel of God to
give them ‘food for the proper time’.But after his death, starting from the second president of the WT, Rutherford, the efforts and goals were no more the simply provide and publishing of the ‘message’. The Society received the authority of international supervision over the ‘congregations’. These ‘Bible Students’ had to be unified in a group so as to become one people; Yes [UNITY AT ALL COSTS]. (This expression was made by the former legal counsel of the Society, Hayden C. Covington in a court trial held in Scotland, back in 1954, known as ‘the Walsh case’)

One of the beliefs that shocked me was the ‘new understanding’ in 1995 of Jesus’ parable of the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46. I still remember as for years, since 1958, we studied with people the book „From Paradise lost to Paradise regained" We imagined ourselves engaged in a worldwide „separating work" based on the understanding of the WT. We were told that „after Jesus became King in heaven 1914, HE would put apart sheep from goats. And the King rests his decision on how the people treat his spiritual ‘brothers’ and how they accept the good news of the Kingdom that his spiritual brothers preach". (Page 200) Now, since 1995, we are told that this separating work has not begun as yet! The WT October 1995, page 22, says:" In other words the parable points to the FUTURE, when the Son of Man will come in his glory. He will sit down to judge people then living. His judgement will be based on what they have manifested themselves to be. At that time ‘the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one will have been clearly established"...

We have been preaching all the years along to the people, that they had NOW to make a decision, because we are living in the last days of the ‘Time of the End’, accepting God’s only organization on earth and get baptized, otherwise they would belong to the goats and be destructed at Harmaggedon! And now we hear the WT has ‘adjusted’ his understanding of this parable, as well as the generation of 1914. I ask 'what will be the next 'adjustement'???

I really see in this kind of mindset that has dominated and is still dominating the WT as :’ we haven’t been right, but we’ve never been wrong’ the evidence of not qualifying to be the ‘Israel of God’ or ‘the chosen people’. In my last response I said that God can have everywhere in the world people who believe in His Son Jesus Christ and are living according to the Truth of His Word.

In the book „Paul’s idea of Community", page 48, is written about the first christians:"These scattered Christians group did nor express their unity by fashioning a corporate organization, but rather through a network of personal contacts between people who regarded themselves as members of the same christian family."

As in the first century, when the Jewish people did not accept the Son of God, so it will surely be in modern day. They had found a sense of security in their religious guides and buildings, a sense of righteousness these had brought them. But they experienced an abrupt and painful awakening! I believe that we can avoid this experience in our lives, we should do like the apostles answering to the religious governing body of that time, and said:"OBEDIENCE TO GOD COMES BEFORE OBEDIENCE TO MEN." Acts 5:27-29

James

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

James

Jr
I must admitt you know a lot about the Book of Ezekiel. But as you also know, it is not the only book of the Bible, which can help us to understand how Jehovah deals with His people as well as how the prophecies from old are going to be fulfilled on the christian congregation in our days. I still want to enphasize, that if we desire to understand those prophecies, it is indispensable to see them at the light of the entire Bible.

If we do so, we will realise that Jesus foretold the purpose of His Father to leave the nation of Israel, because of their unfaithfullness and direct His attention to persons of all nations and give them the unique chance to become part of ‘His people’. Jesus told a parable in Matthew 21:33-45 about the vineyard, etc. and I see many references to the things spoken about in this forum until now! At the end of the parable Jesus said:" This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God WILL BE TAKEN FROM YOU AND BE GIVEN TO A NATION PRODUCING IST FRUITS.......Now when the chief priests and the Pharisees had heard his illustrations, they took note that he was speaking about them."

Since that time Jehovah deals, through His Son, with people of every nation, no more with the nation of fleshly Israel, as the ‘chosen nation’. With his many illustrations and parables, as that of the wheat and the weeds, the dragnet and so on, Jesus showed that all over the world there will be people with the right condition of Heart, who will respond to message of the Good News and accept Him as the true Shepherd, the One sent by His Father Jehovah to save mankind. But at same time there will be a lot of persons, who will might have a ‘label’ of Christendom, but will show themselves to be false to His power, when He is going to reveal himself from heaven. (Matthew 7:21-23)

This all, I think, shows clearly, that even though we realize how far from the scriptural teachings many of the organization’s positions are, and even though we have the feeling that Jehovah must do something to correct the situation (only because of their bearing His Name), there is no reason to believe that the Almighty God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, has any greater concern for the WT, then he has for any other of the world’s religions, which claim to speak in ‘His Name’. It is the same situation as with the nation of natural Israel. God did not „straighten out" that nation, nor did His Son do so. The desire on their part (particularly that of the national leadership) for the CHANGE was absent. The same reality we will find in WT leadership.

But just because you love to quote from the Ezekiel book, I suggest to read also the words in chapter 34: 2-16 against the ‘shepherds of Israel’. Jehovah says He will MAKE THEM CEASE from feeding His sheep...; verse 23, 24 ‘ And I will raise over them one Shepherd’...; verse 27 ‘ They will have to know that I’m Jehovah WHEN I BREAKE THE BARS OF THEIR YOKE and I have delivered them out of the hand of those who had been using them as slaves.’ So in this way Jehovah, through His Son, Jesus Christ, will bring His judicial decisions upon those who claim to be ‘Shepherds’ of the flock, but are in reality feeding themselves and show to have no sincerely, honest concern for His sheep!

„You have not encouraged the weary, tended the sick, bandaged the hurt, recovered the straggler, or searched for the lost; and even the strong you have driven with ruthless severety." Ezekiel 34:4 NEB

James

71

God's will or free will?

by thinker in

i've heard many people tell me about bible prophesy.

if the bible can predict future events then it stands to reason that those events are predetermined and man has no choices in this world.

think about all the choices you've made in your life and how different life for you would be if you had done things differently.

James

Hi MDS:

You are completely right! I think that there is a lot of people trying to accuse the Creator of injustice, but they forget the endless love He has showed to humankind until now. He is the Source of Life. Do we thank Him everyday when we get up in the morning, or give Him praise for the wonderful creation around us?

King David said once:" When I look up into the night skies and see the work of your fingers- the moon and the stars you have made- I cannot understand how you can bother with mere puny man (or woman), to pay any attention to him!" Psalms 8:3, 4 (The living Bible Edition)

All the discussion about Judas, Satan and rebelling angels....reminds me of the scripture in Romans chap. 9:11-26, where Paul speaks about Jacob and Esau. It’s true that God loved Jacob BEFORE the twins were born: „For when they had not yet been born nor had practiced anything good or vile, IN ORDER THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD RESPECTING THE CHOOSING MIGHT CONTINUE DEPENDENT, NOT UPON WORKS, BUT UPON THE ONE WHO CALLS, it was said to her (Sarah):’The older will be the slave of the younger."

„What shall we say, then? Is there any injustice with God? Never may that become so! For he says to Moses:"I will have mercy upon whomever I do show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I do show compassion." So, then it depends not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘ For this very cause I HAVE LET YOU REMAIN, that in connection with you I may show my power, and that my Name may be declared in all the earth.’

„So then, upon whom he wishes he has mercy, but whom he wishes he lets become obstinate. You will therefore say to me: „Why does he yet find fault? For who has withstood his express will?" O man, WHO THEN, REALLY ARE YOU TO BE ANSWERING BACK TO GOD? Shall the thing molded say to him that molded it, „Why did you make me this way?" What? Does not the potter have authority over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for an honorable use, another for a dishonorable use? If now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, namely us, whom he called not only from among the Jews but also from among nations, what of it?"

I really believe that single persons are chosen by His Spirit to approach God and get the knowledge of the truth. And God knows our hearts, what we really are ‘inside’. But He has not predestinated our own outcome. We are still free to decide if we want to live our lives FOR HIM, accepting his authority through His Son Jesus Christ, OR NOT. We have the free choice to live our life as we like, but we cannot expect at the end to receive anything from Him, if we have refused to get to know His will for us. It is so simple.

James

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

James

To larc and Jr

In the so called 'Paternoster' Jesus gave us the model how to approach God in prayer, saying „‘ Our Father in the heavens, let Your Name be sanctified.." In the OT the Name appears almost 7000 times as the „Tetragrammaton, JHWH, so that we can conclude, the Jewish people knew the „Name", but they were superstitious and afraid to pronounce it, considering it to sacred..

But surely Jesus didn’t mean that the Name should be proclaimed and used in every day life as we would do speaking of our brother or sister! I remember reading the chapter 17 of John v. 6, 11, 26 that Jesus said:" I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world.... watch over them on account of your name which you have given me....and I have made your name known to them and will make it known."

This scripture was quoted in articles of the February 15, 1973 Watchtower , titled "Why does Faith in the name of Jesus Christ bring Life?" and of the May 1, 1973 titled „What does God’s Name mean to you?".

In those articles the points relative to the deeper sense of the term ‘Name’ are virtually presented just as I have tried to explain in my first post. Very interestingly the WT quoted A. Barnes ‘Notes,Explanatory and practical, on the Gospels (1846):" The word Name (in these verses) includes the attributes, or character of God. Jesus had made known his character, his law, his will, his plan of mercy. Or in other words, he had revealed God to them. The word name is often used to designate the person."

After this quotation the WT made the following comments: „ So, as Jesus ‘explained the Father’ by his own entire perfect life course on earth, he was really ’making God’s Name known.’ He demonstrated that he spoke with God’s full backing and authority. Jesus could therefore say: ‘He that has seen me has seen the Father (also)’. God’s Name thus took on greater meaning to his early followers."

I think that it can be very properly to say, due to the meaning of the „Name", „I will be what I will be", which gives enphasis to the realisation of God’s purpose for His people, that it finds its true fullfillment in and through God’s Son. The name Jesus means "Jah saves". All prophecies of the OT make ultimately His Messianic Son as the focal point. In 2 Corinthians 1:20 Paul says:" For no matter how many promises God has made, they are „Yes" in Christ. And so through him the „Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God".
Back at the time when the Israelites were traveling toward Canaan, Jehovah stated that he would send his angel ahead of them to guide them. They were to obey that angelic guide, he said, „Because my Name is within him". (Exodus 23:21)

In a far greater sense did God cause his „Name" to be in Christ Jesus during his earthly life. This is the reason why some textes of the Hebrew Scriptures that contain statements related to „Jehovah" were applied in the Christian Scriptures to the Son, the basis for doing so evidently being that his Father had invested in Him full power and authority to speak and act in His Name ! (compare Hebr. 1:10-12 with Psalm 102:1, 25-27 etc.)

The apostels in the first century gave plain witness of their love for our Master and Lord Jesus. After healing a man, when they were asked „ in whose name did you this?" Peter, filled with Holy Spirit said to them:’...in the name of Jesus Christ.." and „...there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." ( Acts 4:10-12)

This reminds me of what the apostel Paul wrote to the Romans, chapter 10:9 :"For if you publicly declare that ‘Word’ (the word of faith which we are preaching, vers 8) in your mouth, that Jesus is LORD and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved." Then quoting the prophecy of Joel 2:32, where the prophet spoke about Jehovah, Paul makes clear that this is applyied to Jesus, in vers 12, ‘is the same Lord over all, who is rich to all those calling upon him’. (see also Philippians 2:9-11)

Because of all this, I believe that if we are really disciples of His Son and show it in our daily life, we can be sure that the Father will accept us as ‘proclaimers’ of His 'Name'. Jesus said:" They have now come to know that all the things you gave me are from you; because the sayings that you gave me I have given to them, and they have received them and have certainly come to know that I came out as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me forth." John 17:7, 8; And also:" He that has my commandaments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him." John 14: 21

James

P.S. (Jr I'm still waiting for your answer..)

117

Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr in

in order to qualify as spiritual israel there has to be certain fundamental characteristics or basic truths.

these basic truths are revealed in the law covenant given by moses.

and can be traced down from the nation of israel, down through the 1st century congregation, and further down until our day and time.

James

Hi Jr
Thanks for your Post, I did really appreciate it.
The Scripture you quoted of Acts 15:14-17, was the apostel James speaking to the assembled apostels and older men of Jerusalem, that what happened with the conversion of people from the nations was fulfilling God's prophecies from old.

But I think that in all that you have missed the main point:
When the Bible speaks of God's Name Jehovah or Yahweh we are enclined to limit the expression "Name" in our thinking to a word or phrase that distinguishes one person from another. Yet "name" can apply in a number of other ways, more it can have a far broader, more vital sense than is commonly assigned to it. It can refer to the reputation or personal record, to the authority by which something is done. - See under "Jehovah" in Aid to Bible understanding, Page 1202 -

It is not the mere use of God's Name that makes someone or organisation a servant or 'witness' of this Person. If they don't genuinely reflect, in attitude, conduct and practice, what the Person himself is like - His qualities, ways and standards - they have not truly come to "know His Name" in the scriptural sense.
God's taking out a people for His Name, as James said was prophesied, has thus far greater depth of meaning than merely the application of a nominative word and our demontrating ourselves to be among those sanctifying and proclaiming God's Name calls for far more from us than simply repetitive use of Yahweh or Jehovah (for instance, adding the Name in the NT, where there is no sound basis for doing so).

In our family relationship we don't normally refer to or address our father as "John" or "William" or whatever his name may be. IF WE DO SO, we wouldn't give any indication of our relationship. We address him as FATHER or the more intimate "papa" or "Dad". Those outside that relationship could not use such term! They must restrict themselves to the use of a more FORMAL address involving that particular given name.
That is why, when we become children of God through Jesus Christ, as Paul says in Galatians 4:6:" Now because you are sons, Gos has sent forth the spirit of His Son into our Hearts and it cries out: ABBA (aramaic for "papa") Father", we will not approch to Him calling by His personal Name.

This fact undoubtedly plays a major part in explaining why the undeniable CHANGE came, with the pre-christian emphasis on the Name Jehovah, passing to the christian emphasis on the "heavenly Father", for it is not only in prayer that Jesus made use of this intimate expression. He almost never referred to His Father as Jehovah, rather in the last night with his disciples used more than 50 times the expression "the Father". When he left the disciples after his resurrection to go to His Father in heaven, He said:" But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit arrives upon you and You will be MY WITNESSES both in Jerusalem and all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth..".

That is why I believe, that according to the Christian Teachings, it is only by coming into a intimate relationship with the Father which the Son has opened to us ("I am the way...no one comes to the Father except through me..)that we can truly say that we know God's Name in a full and genuine sense.

About the other sheep, I am of the same opinion as you. There are still many, many sheep of Jesus Christ, which are to be reached with His Message of salvation, expecially those which are of broken hearts and feel lost in this world.

James