just out of the blue i asked my wife whos been a jw for some 30 odd years can she explain the overlapping doctrine.
she said to me she never heard of this and said she will have to look it up.
i thought oh s#^%!.
Can you explain the overlapping generation? No.
How is this different from a trinitarian not being able to explain the trinity? The trinity is not in the Bible.
Is the concept of overlapping generation in the Bible? silence...
How is the overlapping generation teaching different than the trinity teaching? silence...
have you investigated gnostic christianity?.
the gnostic wing of christianity, if it can even be called that today, has quite a few differences to christianity and catholicism.
if the old gnostic christians were here, they would hardly recognize what has happened to the original orthodox catholic church or its various offshoots in protestantism and islam.
I considered it but my skepticism would not permit me to accept another belief system without thoroughly investigating its claims. I can appreciate the experiences of Christianity and have for years took myself to possibly being a closet gnostic but I had a hard time finding a single set of beliefs that define them.
i love the idea of having a like button and then allowing an ability to find the threads according to the number of likes, which could get the popular threads in some order.
the flagging function can help you out a good deal in my opinion.
i think the craisglist uses the flag function by removing a post with a certian flag limit ( with a description also) that would automatically cause a post to be at least temporarily removed until a moderator could evaluate.
Simon, that sounds similar to what I see over on stack overflow.
sometimes, i feel like my life has been summed up by a grateful dead quote: "what a long strange trip it's been".. .
after many years as a witness, i discovered that i worked with gay people - and that they struggled to pay a mortgage and had pretty much the same problems as everyone else.
what was i concerned about?
I remember visiting a church with my kids several weeks ago when I heard the pastor there say that his grandfather knew that God was against slavery. I remember whispering to my daughter in response, "He obviously never read the Bible then."
yesterday, my wife was getting ready for the kh and told the kids that they had to get ready too.
i figured, oh well, they're heading to the hall at least i can get the time i need to catch up on some house work and what not.
before i know it, the wife gave up and allowed the kids to stay.
Wow, I thought this thread was dead but now I see what it has become.
Blondie: I do not know but I think she does believe that the Jews worship the God of the old testament but does not accept Christ and therefore has lost the convenant. Isn't this what the Watchtower teaches? In other words, it is whatever the Watchtower says.
Heaven: Interesting. Some Christians I encountered believe that the Jews will be saved and others believe they are doomed. Of course, many will be quick to point out that "Jesus was a Jew."
Phizzy: One of my favorite fairy tales is The Emporer's New Clothes due to so many similarities I see between that story and religion. As for my wife, I think she is simply afraid to question her beliefs now when only a few months ago she used to question them a lot. I guess she is afraid of ending up like me.
MissFit: Yeah, I can see she is torn between wanting to raise them to be religious and wanting to not force it on them. There was a time when I was concerned about what I was becoming that I was afraid to push the issue of religion on my wife for fear of her losing faith in God. Now that I am more or less a deist I can appreciate the good things that is said in the Bible but I cannot ignore the bad parts either and I do question it openly now which I think scares her.
mgmelkat: That's basically where I stand.
katewild: Fair enough. I can see how for many people religion can be seen as a way to help keep people out of trouble. My wife credits her faith for centering her and I will admit that my faith in Christianity did the same for me. Never the less, critical thinking also protected me from the likes of the Watchtower Society and helped me free myself from my IFB roots.
ruderedhead: Yeah, I should've not brought it up to my wife as I can see the anger and fear in her.
JWDaughter: Thanks for the info. I was hoping a muslim would shed some light on that part of our conversation as I have very little knowledge of the religion.
In regards to the back and forth between JWDaughter and Cofty, I wonder if a lot of the variance between what peaceful Muslims say in regards to their faith correlate in many ways to what more liberal Christians say concerning their faith? Perhaps the more militant Muslims are (hopefully) in the minority much like militant Christians. I can say this though, if Christians are to be truly honest with themselves then the more militant Christians are simply following the Bible much more closely than more moderate Christians are. Can the same also be said for militant Muslims in regards to the Koran?
MindBlown: Thanks for the kind words.
i've just finished reading two (imo) great books:.
"a history of christianity - the first three thousand years", by diarmaid macculloch.
"misquoting jesus", by bart ehrman.
Cool, I was given a list of books from my philosophy professor back in college. I haven't read any of them yet but plan to. Marking to add the books listed here to my list also.
yesterday, my wife was getting ready for the kh and told the kids that they had to get ready too.
i figured, oh well, they're heading to the hall at least i can get the time i need to catch up on some house work and what not.
before i know it, the wife gave up and allowed the kids to stay.
Yesterday, my wife was getting ready for the KH and told the kids that they had to get ready too. I figured, oh well, they're heading to the hall at least I can get the time I need to catch up on some house work and what not. Before I know it, the wife gave up and allowed the kids to stay. Apparently, she is not trying to force them to go to the hall for she figures (and perhaps rightly so) that they would rebel later on when they become teens. I check in with her to ensure that they did not have a special guest at the hall or if there were any other reason why she insisted at first that the kids go. I even offered to go with her as a family if this was the case. Nothing special and she did not seemed too concerned with us going so she left on her own.
Hanging out at the house with the kids, the day kind of got boring for them as the weather did not permit them to play outside. They earned some money cleaning up so I took them to spend it at the store. On our way there, we talked about Halloween and the holidays and why mommy does not celebrate.
"She chooses not to celebrate because she believes that by not celebrating she is pleasing God," I said.
Of course I do celebrate and so I told her that I did not feel the same way. We talked about how different people of different faiths practiced their faith differently even though they are pleasing the same God. I asked her if she remembered the invitation she got from her Mormon friend to attend her baptism. She did so I told her that Mormons feel that they please God by not drinking coffee or sodas because of the caffeine nor do they smoke. They feel that by abstaining from these things, they keep their bodies clean and please God. "So you mean no more Dr Pepper's?" she asked. "If you and mom were Mormons I could not drink Dr Pepper?" "That's right," I said, "if mom and I were to try to raise you up as a Mormon, no soft drinks for us and no coffee for mom." She questioned about how different people's religions have different rules when they are all trying to serve the same God to which I responded, "Yeah, it does all seem a little man made, doesn't it." By then we were entering the store and the girls went to the toy section to get their gifts.
We then got lunch and they wanted me to take them to the new Goodwill that was just opened nearby. We went there and stayed for a short bit and left for home. On our way out the store, we passed by this muslim couple and my child, being 8 and naturally inquisitive began asking, "Why is that lady wearing a mask and only her eyes can be seen?" To which I replied, "Well, remember what we talked about concerning rules and pleasing God? People of the Islam or Muslim religion believe that women should remain covered from head to toe so as to show respect to their husbands or fathers and in so doing, please God." "Mom does not do that," she said. "I know, same God different rules," I replied.
Hours went by before my wife returned but shortly after her returned I told her of our conversation. She was less than pleased and was visibly upset. She tried to say that the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity (they are). She felt the need to later school our daughter on why she does not celebrate Halloween and how it was started by pagan customs and then judge and criticize the churches that held the trunk or treat like the one we went to last week. I think she is concerned that I am trying to make our daughter an atheist (I'm not) in spite of the fact that she believes in God (as do I). I told her that I have NO interest in making my children think my way (that's what religious people do) and instead I just simply present things as they simply are to the best of my knowledge.
"what was the actual significance of that year, then?".
if jw's were overly zealous, what was the exact amount of zeal encouraged by the wts for a non-event which took up.
over 7 years of every jw's time?.
marked
that is the conclusion you must accept if you are a jehovah's witness as my wife tries to explain to me that even if what they are teaching today contradicts what they were previously teaching, they had the truth then and they have the truth now.
the difference is, they (the witnesses and the governing body) simply believed that what they were teaching at the time was the truth but when they discovered new information they adjusted their thinking.
so since they formerly believed it to be the truth, they were in the truth.. an example she gave involved people who once believed the earth was flat.
stirred: "Oh well, we all make mistakes......said the trapeze catcher."
I've made similar points to my wife as yours when I pointed out to her that it is one thing for witnesses to carry on as if the heavenly events that occurred in 1914 actually happened. It stays in their head and has no real impact on their lives. But when it comes to doctrines concerning life and health its impact cannot be ignored. So what about those JW's who lost their lives refusing an organ transplant only to have the WTS rescind the doctrine? How did their family members take it? She attempted to defend them by saying that throughout history people have sacrificed their lives to defend their beliefs. As true as this statement is, how many witnesses would've died refusing organs if the WTS had not told them to believe that receiving an organ is akin to cannabilism? How many witnesses would accept blood if the WTS considered it a conscious matter? How many now take blood fractions (she did during her pregnancy) now that the WTS considers them a conscious matter? Whose principles are these people really dying for?
Sadly, when I lump them in the same camp as the Christian Scientists and the religious nut jobs who refuse any form of vaccinations she winds up defending them along with the witnesses. For I guess to admit that a Christian Scientist who allows his or her children to die rather than receive proper medical treatment is someone who died for a principle that was false would be too perilous to admit if the same thing can be applied to WT teachings.
silent: "What's the point of beating my brains out and putting in tons of hours while digesting meeting after meeting after meeting only for the slim chance that "perhaps" I might make it?"
That statement was what I had struggled with as well as an IFB who believe it or not preached "once saved always saved." They infer that while "once saved, always saved" may indeed be true, backsliding or continuing to live in sin could call into question whether or not you were truly saved. Fortunately, the Southern Baptists were a lot more forgiving by comparison and allow for a more human element which is probably why I found their doctrines more palatable. The IFB's had me constantly questioning whether I was in God's good graces and I did not begin to feel that way again until I began attending the meetings with my wife.
Anyway, back to your topic on truth - if I'm going to surrender myself to an organization and a thought process, it had better be 100% right - especially if they are inspired of God.
I remember feeling the same way back in 2009 when I began this wild journey of mine that took me to unexpected places. To quote Evid3nc3 (a YouTube blogger who posted a series on his deconversion to atheism) following truth became more important to me than following God. That was when the scales began to fall.
But they dare not because it would not only undermine their authority, but can you imagine the backlash if they made a blatant correction about blood transfusions? Holy smokes...their lawyers would be working overtime then!
Hence why they'll never rescind the blood doctrine, their only hope is that medical science comes up with a substitute that can perform the same function as blood. If that happens, they'll be prasing Jehovah for the provision and giving themselves so much credit for standing steadfast on His teachings concerning blood.
ucantnomore: Got it, I have Ray's books as well. Did not read Christian Freedom all the way through but I did read Crisis of Conscious. Good man he is.
notsurewheretogo: impeccable reasoning that is unfortunately lost on a dub.
punkofnice: indeed
magnum: and don't forget those alien encounters, people believe them so they must be real. Same goes for the tooth fairy, etc.
shirley: "I wonder how many JWs realize that their held beliefs about the wishy-washiness of Jehovah™ eviscerates their most cherished beliefs?"
I don't think they give it much thought and if they do, well, they end up becoming apostates.
that is the conclusion you must accept if you are a jehovah's witness as my wife tries to explain to me that even if what they are teaching today contradicts what they were previously teaching, they had the truth then and they have the truth now.
the difference is, they (the witnesses and the governing body) simply believed that what they were teaching at the time was the truth but when they discovered new information they adjusted their thinking.
so since they formerly believed it to be the truth, they were in the truth.. an example she gave involved people who once believed the earth was flat.
silent: Your comments on what makes a successful witness vs a struggling one mirrors almost exactly what I saw in other churches where I managed to learn how to be a 'successful' Christian after leaving the IFB church and not taking too much of the doctrines too seriously. During my IFB years, I was indeed a 'struggling' Christian as I tried VERY hard to follow the church's teachings and practices. I've listened to other Christians' of other denominations testimonies during their deconversions to non belief and found many of them to be just as sincere and struggled just as much as I did because they took their churches' teachings very seriously also.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=deconversion+from+christianity&FORM=HDRSC3
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA0C3C1D163BE880A
In short, be a nominal believer and you will go far.
