Posts by GLTirebiter

No, I said we know that things have inevitably been added and taken away as these works were passed on through the centuries, transcribed and translated many times, into languages far different than the original, and read by persons with a cultural outlook far removed from the nations who first used them--and we don't know where these changes are, nor which of the various texts is "right".

We have enough trouble understanding the words of Shakespeare, written in our mother tongue for our relatively recent ancestors. It is far harder to comprehend the meaning of words written into a much older, far different language for a people with an entirely different culture. I said trying to literally understand every word is a fool's errand because we do not talk like, think like, or act like people of those ancient places and distant nations, nor do we even know with certainty which version of the words we should accept.

Here is a modern example (used by my High School religion teacher): We might say "I make the bed every morning." We understand that to mean straightening the sheets, tucking in the blankets, and fluffing up the pillows. But if those words are translated literally to a language used in a non-Western culture, they might think we are working with wood, tools and nails, building new furniture every day! That is the problem with word-by-word literal translation: you can have all the right words and completely miss then meaning. Figurative language is not unique to us; a good study Bible explains many figures of speech in the scriptures (leading us to wonder how many more there are that we don't even recognize).

because the Bible is one book

Like Tec, I disagree. "The Bible" is an anthology, containing 66, 73, or 76 books (depending on which version you have) produced at different times over thousands of years (including times when it was passed down orally, not in writing).

Using your reasoning, Deuteronomy 32:45-47 says that only the Pentateuch is valid. Everything that came later was "added on", so if it was really one book and the words are a warning to "not add on", then the story must end right there, on the mountain east of the river Jordan overlooking the land of Canaan.

But reading Deuteronomy as a book complete within itself makes clear that these words are about the (Mosaic) law, which makes sense in the context of the passage:

Final Appeal

When Moses had finished speaking all these words to all Israel, he said to them, Take to heart all the words that I am giving in witness against you today, words you should command your children, that they may observe carefully every word of this law. For this is no trivial matter for you, but rather your very life; by this word you will enjoy a long life on the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.

10

WT Funny Slogans

by fedup in

generations are forever.

good to the last flip-flop.

we love to see you cringe.

GLTirebiter

Today's Truth: the choice of discriminating Witnesses since 1881!

61

Comments from a real JW about the killing of apostates watchtower. You will be shocked..

by Hairyhegoat in

jw
friends

this is a very good find from another jw only web site i have access to... hey i just found this on a link of my mom's that she is "friends" with, yes, still a jw...anyway, i had to copy/paste it so you could all see, thought it was a bit hilarious to see how they blatantly speak of keeping info from "outsiders.

" i did not copy the name of the person since that is not my point and i am not that disrespectful, but i did copy their comment...they were discussing the wt about killing all apostates and someone that was studying asked a question as to whether they all thought that was right or not, so here it is..............."james... although its a great article and very encouraging, as apostates do deserve to be murdered, it may not be such a good idea to reveal it our friend zeek at this moment.

he may find it a tad over the top.

GLTirebiter

It would be significant if it was (or quoting directly from) an official WT publication, so it could be documented. Without that it is no more than another rant on Facebook, which may or may not have been written by an actual Witness. It doesn't matter much either way.

30

Do not add or do not take away.Rev.22;18,19

by jam in

jw
friends

who have added and who has taken away.

not have to be a genius to understand these words.. god says, "this is the end".

don,t tamper with it, his.

GLTirebiter

The various books we call "the Bible" had not been assembled into a unified collection at the time they were written. Each work stood on its own. So in the time each of these texts was put into writing, Deut.12:32 applies to Deuteronomy, Prov 30:5,6 applies to Proverbs and Rev 22:18-19 applies to Revelations, etc.

Various parallel texts and styles exist in each book describing the the events somewhat differently, especially in the Pentateuch. There are Yawistic and Priestly versions of the stories. There are different surviving ancient texts, differing in wording and completeness. Do we blame scribes who lived thousands of years ago for "adding or taking away"? What about those who may have incorrectly passed down the oral traditions of ancient teachings through the centuries before they were written down, are they guilty of "adding or taking away"?

What of the later Bible translators, who differ on the correct way to render ancient tongues and idoms in latter day languages? When they disagree, who is right, and who "added or took away": Jerome? Wyckliffe? Luther?

The point is, we don't know, will never know, every detail and meaning the scriptures conveyed to their original audience. Obsessing with literal word-by-word accuracy is a fool's errand, not only because of uncertainty about the actual words, but also the cultural context of the times. We are not bronze age Hebrews, and we are not middle-eastern Christians of the first century. Even if we know the ancient languages, we aren't going to grok every nuance, cultural reference, and play on words they contain--they are many, and they convey an important part of the writing's message.

The worst way to "take away" from scripture is to isolate a verse here, a verse there, separating them from the context that helps us to understand (imperfectly) what message they were trying to convey. The worst way to "add to" is patching together isolated verses between different books, produced at different times and circumstances, for different uses, into a Frankenstein monster [see date of this post!] bearing but superficial resemblance to their meaning when studied in the original context.

So if you wish to avoid "add tos" and "take aways", read it in context--each book complete from beginning to end, and using different translations. The consistent message is inspired scripture; the variations are mere human fallibility.

4

Oct 30, 2011 Watchtower study ... What is missing?

by wannabefree in

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GLTirebiter

The guy who's supposed to bring the wine hasn't shown up yet.

4

Oldest swiss army knife located

by JeffT in

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GLTirebiter

LOL!

The red paint didn't hold up too well--it's all faded now.

85

Hello--new to the witnesses...and you

by LKM in

jw
friends

just wanted to introduce myself.

i went to the kh for the first time 2 weeks ago...and will go again tomorrow.

i don't believe anything witnessy...(i was raised in the assembly of god church and now the closest thing i "do" with religion is yoga or sometimes the buddhist temple).... but the man i'm in love with is a df'd jw (we've been together for 6 years).... and he wants to get reinstated just to talk to his family again (i can assure you he does not believe it).... and he wants his family to accept me because we are about to get married... so, i'm going to meetings...its very interesting, but only because it shows me more about how he was raised.

GLTirebiter

Welcome, LKM!

I feel its a compromise I'm making for our relationship. I can go to a meeting here and there so he has the chance of speaking to his family again.... Sigh. Any suggestions of how to pull this off? I don't want to study. I just want to go to meetings to make things easier for him and his family. I'm a peace maker.

Pursuing family peace is a noble goal, but a difficult one. Don't think this is the only compromise you will have to make, nor the most difficult. Others will follow. For now, it's "go to the meetings". Then associations with Witnesses dominate your social life, to the detriment of non-Witness friends and family members. Then you should start a "Bible study", the better to fit in with the congregation. And if you have children (now or later), of course you need to give them a "good spiritual and moral example".

Your partner will be under pressure too, if he's started going back to meetings. The Watchtower teaches there is only one truth: their "Truth" as expounded in their publiocations, and there are only two kinds of people: good Witnesses (including prospects for conversion) and evil "Worldlies" (everyone else). Being a Witness in good standing is a full-time proposition, not just a few hours on Sundays.

It is a very difficult to straddle the Watchtower fence, keeping the family peace without outright capitulation. Some have managed to do it; others (self included) have tried and failed. If you both are committed to facing this challenge, I wish you the strength and resolve to be true to yourselves. If you do go this route, he will need your support just as much as you will need his. But if you are not of one mind and agree up front to the boundaries on involvement, then "divide" has already happened and "conquer" will be next on the agenda.

WRONG place to be asking questions about the Witnesses dear.

I disagree. For somebody who is not a Witness, and is involved with a lapsed Witness who is showing signs of returning to that practice, this forum (and freeminds.org) is is the RIGHT place to be reading and asking questions! You will learn from former Witnesses, nominal Witnesses who are in the organization only to appease family (exactly the situation LKM is facing), other non-believers who have Witnesses as family members, and even from an active Witness or two (though they are not supposed to be active here, according to Watchtower teachings). There are many different opinions, and you won't agree with all of them. There is fluff and nonsense to separate from facts, as there is in any open and honest discussion. But paying attention to all sides is how you come to understand different perspectives on the Watchtower organization, the Witnesses who follow those teachings, and spiritual philosphies in general. You have heard the Watchtower's version in the Kingdom Hall; now learn about other points of view here.

150

Out Of All JW Beliefs Which Is The Weirdest?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i know there's plenty.. one that comes to mind is the blood doctrine.

whole blood is bad, blood fractions may be ok but not all.....wtf?

?.

GLTirebiter

"Faithful and Discreet Slave"

Literally 144,000 have the "heavenly hope", but that doesn't mean 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel (that part is figurative)

Two classes of Christians (and you were born too late, so second class salvation is the only hope you have)

Jesus was Michael the Archangel, then He wasn't for about 30 years, but now He is again

141

"Theocratic Warfare" and the Annual Report

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

one of the things i certainly noticed as a jw, and even during the time i was in bethel, was the complexities of reporting "truth.".

beginning with an observation on a personal level, i consider myself an honest person.

but something happened along the way, beginning when i pioneered.

GLTirebiter

Well, I also think the reports of increase are coming from countries that are more likely to use "theocratic warfare strategy" and fatten up their reports to satisfy Brooklyn and keep their branches open.

This account sounds a lot like what happens in big business when the belt-tightening gets intense. Executives who want to protect their divisions and regional offices will tell the Big Boss whatever he wants to hear, and keep up appearances to convince the big-wigs that it's true. If you want favorable reports, we can write them for you!

It tells you what is important to the leaders. The GB surely knows that time reports are exaggerated, but they have no problem repeating that bogus data. Conclusion: "preaching work" really isn't the huge priority they say it is.

Who's going to check their figures?

Field service numbers? Probably nobody. But the branch's financial figures are another story!