Posts by JAVA

9

Why do we need a 'god'?

by Uni girl in

jw
friends

i have read with interest the discussions on this board and many good point have been well made, especially uncle bruce.

but over and over i keep thinking why do we need a god??.

are we such weak creatures who stand by and hope and yes i mean hope that there will be an end to injustice??

JAVA

Uni girl (Wow--you know how to start a conversation; Welcome to the group),

Are we such weak creatures who stand by and hope and yes I mean hope that there will be an end to injustice?? I'm not just talking about war, famine etc I'm talking about the prejudices that run so deep within society, that are not addressed and thus people suffer.

I hate to disagree with TruthHurts (well...no, not really) but I think humans are as weak or strong as they want to be, with or without religion. There is nothing wrong with religion until it's taken seriously. When that happens, all hell breaks out.

Religion helps us come together and process what we can't prove. There is nothing weak or wrong with that unless we force others into believing what we can't prove in the first place. Also, religion typically reflects societal norms (good, bad, and the ugly), and is used to approve these norms. In many ways, religion is a reflection of who we are at a period in time. I don't see that as a weakness, but a mirror of sorts. We can't fully blame religion per se for unfairness, because unfairness happens until there are reasons to change. With or without religion.

As you pointed out, religion at its core is nothing more than a group of people with shared beliefs they can't prove. When said groups start taking themselves too seriously, demanding they have "the Truth" or their ism is the only way--that's weakness. On that basis, the Watchtower Society is a weakness, but the Watchtower Society is not a reflection of all religions. Some religions speak out against suffering and injustice. For example, some Quakers spoke out again slavery long before it became a political issue in the United States. Yes, prejudices run deep in society, and religion can act as a tool for or against it.

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

Edited by - JAVA on 20 February 2001 15:36:16

23

What do you like about K Halls?

by philo in

jw
friends

hi folks.

what do you like about kingdom halls?.

i am not talking about the software i.e., the people, the pure language, the music, the smell of lavender as the toilet door swings to, or the obedient rustle of bible pages.

JAVA

philo,

Welcome to the group!

They have no windows and very low ceilings

The windows (or lack thereof) was the first thing I thought of when reading the opening post. We had windows in the old KH I attended, but they had bars covering the outside, thus I felt like I was in jail. Of course that should have told me something, but that's another topic.

I believe most of the newer KHs are built without windows for various reasons. I think this says a lot about the mind set of the JW community. The JWs think they are the only religion on earth who are being persecuted, so the newer structures are windowless. Gee, I wonder if any are surrounded by crocodile-infested water and a drawbridge?

I attended a Unitarian Church built in 1913 a few years ago that had wonderful stained-glass windows. The windows didn't have the usual biblical themes, but the old stained-glass windows were awesome with the sun shining through them! I've never been to a KH that radiated a spiritual setting, much less windows pleasing to the eye. The topic of this thread is "What do you like about K Halls?" Come to think about it--NOTHING!

PS: I read trevor's post after sending the above. I guess there are a few things to like about KHs after all.

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

Edited by - JAVA on 20 February 2001 12:58:48

13

John the baptist sent me.

by TheHighPriest in

jw
friends

hi all,.

it wasn't really him that sent me but the the one that came after him said this was a good place to stop in, lets just hope i am welcome.. i just posted this on h2o so it will have to do as an intro for me here:.

"i thought i'll give you all a little background to my beliefs so as you will all know where i come from or what perspective i put on things when i post or make comments.. i do believe in a god and a creator hence i can not call myself an atheist.. thp

JAVA

THP,

Welcome to the club even if you're not apostate!

I enjoyed reading your intro, thanks for sharing. My spouse occasionally wears a button when she feels like stirring the social/religious pot, it says: "My Goddess gave birth to your God." She has a few other buttons too, but this is a family channel so I better not share.

So, TheHighPriest, does your spouse call you Arron, or does she just not call you?

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

6

Valentines Day is almost here!

by mommy in

with the big day approaching i thought of a "valentines day past" i thought i would share.

my ex husband and i were still dating and it was our first valentines day together, and the first i officially celebrated.

and was very important to me.

JAVA

battman,

Then I said to myself, self you better get to work on that huge project called working on my life and the future. So I started doing research and found this forum.

Way to go, battman! I love seeing folks take control of their lives and moving forward. This is a good community for Witnesses with questions, and ex-JWs alike to share and come together. Glad you found this forum.

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

28

Is God real to you?

by alias in

jw
friends

in a recent topic someone mentioned how much they have drifted from god since they "left the jw's.".

as someone brought up in the org (inactive for several years)i have found this to be similiar in my case.

i don't know how much i believe the fan/plug analogy (remember that in the live forever book?

JAVA

Hello TruthHurts,

Welcome to the list. I see from your post that your view of Jehovah has not changed since leaving the Tower. Can you tell us a little about your background as a JW, and how you nourish your faith today? Again--welcome to the group.

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

28

Is God real to you?

by alias in

jw
friends

in a recent topic someone mentioned how much they have drifted from god since they "left the jw's.".

as someone brought up in the org (inactive for several years)i have found this to be similiar in my case.

i don't know how much i believe the fan/plug analogy (remember that in the live forever book?

JAVA

alias,

You said, "I believe there are numerous ways to fill a spiritual void; with or without the theism of others." I'd be interested in exploring some of these "ways". Would you care to elaborate too?

I don't have much to elaborate on except what works for me. As JWs we attended meetings, followed routines to insure we fit into the religious community, and so forth. I've tried this with other groups, but found I needed a respite from the spiritual groove of others. That doesn't mean they were wrong or didn't have anything to offer, but I needed to go outside the box to fill my spiritual void.

I've found refreshment by exploring books and discussion groups that honors the question, and realizes there are many answers or no answer at all. I did not found that type of community in most churches, but many are very happy there. Books like Siddhartha, by Hermann Hesse, The Prophet, by Kahlil Gibran, Tao Te Ching, by Lao-tzu, or even Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, by John Shelby Spong offers spiritual refreshment to me. Some Unitarian or Quaker discussion groups have interesting programs, and some don't. I've enjoyed a few Zen workshops that helped me find a higher purpose in daily activities, thus a spiritual walk can be found wherever I happen to be, if I want it.

Larc was kind enough to spend many hours over coffee with me when I left "the Truth." This was before the days of the Internet, and finding a community of former Witnesses was nearly impossible. Looking back at that those times when larc and I got together, I see that as a spiritual walk, in that two people came together and shared on many levels. This might not be an answer to your question alias, but from a person who enjoys the question without requiring "the Answer," it's the best response I have. I hope it's helpful.

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

Edited by - JAVA on 18 February 2001 11:31:10

32

Who's Going to the Memorial??

by Prisca in

jw
friends

just wondering..... for those of us who are inactive, or have serious doubts, etc etc... are you going to the memorial, even though you don't fully agree with how they explain things?.

anyone planning to have their own at home?.

or are you still planning on going, even if it's to say g'day to long "lost" friends?.

JAVA

Frenchy,

I got a call the other night from the new P.O. Seems that 9 months after I stepped down and stopped going to the meetings they want to meet with me.

I suggest a registered letter to the elders, with a cc to your attorney.

"I do not wish to meet or speak with the elders. This does not infer my religious beliefs. If slandered in any way because of this request, I will seek legal counsel."

As you know, playing by their rules is a setup to slander you. You're putting them on notice that you know how they operate. As a result, they might not want to tangle with someone who will bit back. I hope it goes well for you, Frenchy.

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

28

Is God real to you?

by alias in

jw
friends

in a recent topic someone mentioned how much they have drifted from god since they "left the jw's.".

as someone brought up in the org (inactive for several years)i have found this to be similiar in my case.

i don't know how much i believe the fan/plug analogy (remember that in the live forever book?

JAVA

alias,

You should post more often, alias. This suggestion comes form a guy who doesn't believe in "shoulds."

After reflecting over my years in the org, I realize that I never really got to know God, but was more involved in the typical JW lifestyle/religion and of following the policies and procedures of man.

As expressed in other posts, your feelings are normal and experienced by many who exit the Tower. Sooner or later we're faced with filling the spiritual void, but not sure how to start. As a JW, I didn't feel I had a personal relationship with God because like you, I was too busy jumping through the Tower's hoops. I didn't envision God without the Watchtower, and when leaving the Tower, the concept of God was vague.

The problem of "who or what is God" is convoluted by adding the JW "false religion" sentiment some carry after leaving. It's no wonder former JWs struggle with the God concept. It doesn't take long before your topic surfaces in groups like this.

On the topic of religion, I heard Joseph Campbell (the author of The Power of Myth) say, "Those who know they don't know, knows." As a general rule, religion is a belief system we can't prove; that's why "faith" enters the religious equation. Faith is a strong thing. Folks say they feel God's presence, feel the power, and witness atypical things. Who can tell another they did or didn't?

The Christian concept of God doesn't work for me, and I'm satisfied knowing I don't know. Folks needing the correct religion with the right answers typically gravitate to Bible-thumping sects to prove their righteousness and rightness, while condemning others with a different view. Main-line churches are more forgiving, but the fact remains, God is a mystery we can't prove. That doesn't mean there is no God; it just means we can't prove there is. That being said, any concept of God is as valid as the religious thinkers before us.

I believe there are numerous ways to fill a spiritual void; with or without the theism of others.

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

Edited by - JAVA on 17 February 2001 8:42:41

22

Kismet is im hospital

by Kismet in

jw
friends

my name is miriam.

i am a friend of johns.

last night he went to the hospital with severe abdonimal pains.

JAVA

Thanks for posting, Miriam. Hope all goes well, and that John gets home soon.

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

38

TOLERANCE

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

tolerance.

i think the appearance of the now infamous danielle gives us reason for pause.

i admit that at first i took her at face value which is what we are all supposed to do.

JAVA

Frenchy,

1) What's wrong with someone coming off as Danielle and having a little fun with the board? So we were fooled at the very first but it soon became obvious what she was doing. Magicians fool us all the time and we are entertained by it. Danielle's posts went beyond being just entertaining. Whatever her motives were, they made us react. They made us think. Which is better to mean well and cause harm or to intend mischief and end up creating a situation that makes people look deeper into their hearts.

I enjoy being entertained by David Copperfield because I know it's entertainment, and I'm a willing particpant. I didn't take part in the Danielle posts, but was part of the Gloria thread. If the Gloria thread was a hoax (I don't know if it was or wasn't) I make no apologies for not being entertained. I make no apologies for feeling like I've been had. As to the hoax causing me to look deeper into my heart, it does--I wonder why waste time posting for someone's entertainment? I can search deep into my soul without using a pretense, and believe others can, too. When wanting entertainment, I'll buy the ticket and enjoy the show.

2) A person posts under two different names. Who is to say that one of the names is ‘real' and that the other is ‘fake'? How do we know which poster is really "real"? How do we know that either is ‘real'? This medium allows us the rare opportunity to display different facets of our personality.

Unless we're talking about a multiple-personality disorder, I think we're playing games with "real" and "fake." No, JAVA is not my real name, but on DB most people pick a tag to identify comments coming from that person. As JAVA, I'm not limited in displaying "different facets" of my personality. It's really not necessary to use a different identity to play the Devil's advocate.

3) It seems that Gloria and Danielle had a substantial effect upon us. Neither extorted anything from us or caused any harm or pain. Both made us think along slightly different lines than we normally do.

I disagree. If Gloria was a hoax, she/he extorted sympathy, and something I treasure; my time. Did this cause me harm and pain; no, however the next so-called Gloria that starts a thread might mean I'll hit the Delete button instead of posting--that's a shame because the next Gloria might be real.

I understand what JAVA is saying about feeling that perhaps it's a waste of time talking to a ‘fake' personality. However, how do we know that these questions and/or comments are not real? Real to the ‘real' person behind the alternate personna as well as to the many who lurk as well as post here? How do we know that perhaps it is only through this alternate personna that the ‘real' person can express the depth of these questions? Would those same questions and comments have the same effect coming from a poster that is ‘recognized' and categorized?

The fact that a question is asked or a comment is given makes them real. The motivates behind questions and comments are also real; objective to the one speaking or writing, and subjective to the one responding. All of this enters into how we communicate. My subjective response is altered if I'm thinking, "Is this person real or using a alternate personna?" I don't believe we need an "alternate personna" to express the depths of our souls, or to ask questions we don't normally ask. Alternate personnas create environments that are not healthy or lasting in real relationships. I don't believe that formula changes because we're using computers and the Internet as a means of communication.

These comments are not an attack on the post from Frenchy. They reflect my beliefs and feelings on the "Subject for discussion" and the questions Frenchy put to the group.

---JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

Edited by - JAVA on 15 February 2001 16:6:45