dear friends:.
for years now after my exit from the wtbts i have searched for god.
as i have previously mentioned in other threads i looked into many other religions, including druidry, zen and tibetan buddhism (not really a religion), asatru, native american shamanism, kemetic orthodoxy, gnosticism and pandeism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7rBQvB5310
This video makes more sense to me than anything that has ever been posted on these forums in regard to God and or religion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKjWVf0aUks&feature=relate
Part two has some of the same information as part one, but with some extra information after timestamp 2:04
dear friends:.
for years now after my exit from the wtbts i have searched for god.
as i have previously mentioned in other threads i looked into many other religions, including druidry, zen and tibetan buddhism (not really a religion), asatru, native american shamanism, kemetic orthodoxy, gnosticism and pandeism.
Ok Shelby then answer me this.
IF we don't look to the Bible, how are we supposed to know anything at all about Christ?
Without referencing the Bible (either in scripture or lesson) how are we supposed to know how to pray, to ask for guidance, to ask for Holy Spirit, to know what God's and or Christ's purpose is?
Also I mean no disrespect towards you but I still disagree. I am stating my opinion on these matters borne out of my own experiences. Whether they are fact or fiction remains to be seen but they are still MY opinion based upon MY experiences and YOUR opinion does not invalidate them because YOUR experiences are different.
So again I ask you to tell me who God and Christ are without using the Bible as a reference since as you say we shouldn't look to the Bible for the answers.
can someone explain why jws shun disfellowshipped ones when they are at their meetings (i.e.
making moves to come back)?.
i can understand why you may not want to 'socialize' with ones who do not share your beliefs.. but surely shunning such ones at the 'meetings'; assuming they are not there to cause trouble, is unloving; should they not be welcomed like the prodigal son.. true christians are known by the 'love' they show.
1 Cor. 5: 11-13 (quoted above) makes the point that the person in question is called a "brother" indicating to me at least that they are still considered part of the congregation which is in direct opposition to the Disfellowshipping procedure of saying " Awen is no longer one of JW's" hence no longer a brother.
Also in the texts of 1 Cor. (according to the All Scriptures Inspired book) it was a period of no greater than 6 months between the initial disfellowshipping and reinstatement of the man who took his father's wife into his own bed. Compare that with the practice of keeping people out for years amongst JW's for far less sins. Also consider that if the people in the Corinthian congregation weren't even saying a greeting to him or speaking to him,......how did they know he repented since meetings were held in private homes at the time (where he wouldn't be welcomed)? Somebody had to be talking to him.
In the Myrtle Beach, SC congregation a friend of mine (an Elder of 25 years and professed anointed) committed adultery after the death of his wife 4 years before. He was Dfed for THREE months and then reinstated. No lie. I was stunned. No one could figure out why it was only 3 months instead of 1 year. I'm guessing it was because of his popularity in the cong, the various brothers who depended on him and the amount of money he gave while an active JW.
I think of all the people I knew who were DFed and had to wait the customary year for reinstatement. Now while I appaud the Elders taking swift action on his part, I am still dismayed why others had to wait a year. Of course I know the answer. They weren't this Brother.
dear friends:.
for years now after my exit from the wtbts i have searched for god.
as i have previously mentioned in other threads i looked into many other religions, including druidry, zen and tibetan buddhism (not really a religion), asatru, native american shamanism, kemetic orthodoxy, gnosticism and pandeism.
I'm not saying a God doesn't exist.
I'm saying that the God described in the Bible doesn't fit what we are told He is (Love).
His actions or rather inaction seems to contradict the very nature of the definition of love that Paul gave in 1 Cor. 13 4-8 "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails"
dear friends:.
for years now after my exit from the wtbts i have searched for god.
as i have previously mentioned in other threads i looked into many other religions, including druidry, zen and tibetan buddhism (not really a religion), asatru, native american shamanism, kemetic orthodoxy, gnosticism and pandeism.
@ PSac
Seems like you have already Judged and condemed Him.
In the Bible we are reminded time and again that it's through God's grace that we are deemed worthy of Him. Yet we as a race have been waiting for 6,000 years for Him to act. I say "god" isn't worthy of us.
Many of us served god whole-souled with every bit of our strength, love and mind yet never received an answer to our prayers. We received no intervention in our lives. It has to be within God's will for him to help us. What parent would treat their children like this? What human parent would allow their child to suffer only so that the parent's name could be magnified? How unscrupulous is that? There is not a single parent that I know of, who when their child is sick wouldn't do everything in their power to ease their child's pain. Yet we get.....nothing.
So to me god is like an abusive parent. One could say that because god created us we owe him. But even us lowly humans realize that you can't make someone love you if they have no love to give. Many of us have dealt with abusive parents and no matter how hard we tried there was no pleasing them. We were never good enough, faithful enough or whatever. God's silence all these thousands of years seem to be indicative of the same thing. What made the Hebrews in the Bible so good (even though God called them stiff-necked) that God would appear in a burning bush, or part the Red Sea, speak from a windstorm? These are just stories with no factual basis. There is no place where a "miracle" occurred that we can go back and say "look God was here." The stories in the Bible are just myths like every other religion. Almost no one serves the Egyptian gods or the Roman ones, or the Greek. Christianity is still young and I think eventually it will go the way of the Dodo bird. I say good riddance!
@ Shelby
It's not a lie. It's an opinion. Just because the scriptures say JXXXXXXXXX is the Son of God etc doesn't make it true. You can (as I used to) quote scripture all day long but until there is hard factual evidence that I can put my hands on (like Thomas wanting to see the wounds in JXXXXXX' hands) I think the stories about JXXXXXX are just that. Made up stories. No different than the ones in any other religion. You know as well as I that there exists no factual proof that the man called Jesus (and please don't contend with me on his proper name, you know we're talking about the same person) ever existed. People once believed in Ra, Osiris, Thoth etc as real people too yet we know they're just archetype made up to explain unknown phenomenon. I just can't go on fooling myself and hoping that it's all true when there is nothing but circumstancial evidence in the form of copies of ancient texts that often contradict themselves whose authorship is even in doubt.
Just because people believed in someone and died defending that person (1st Century Christian martyrs) does not mean the person they believed in actually existed. The same exact thing can be said for Ra, Zeus, Quezacoatl and so on. All through our history people have lived and died for various gods and always been disappointed. I see no difference between them and us except the difference in time and how far we have advanced scientifically.
I'd more likely believe that the human race was seeded by an alien intelligence (circumstancial evidence also) and who is just waiting for us to mature than for an omnipotent, omnipresence god who is either incompentent or just doesn't give a darn.
the jesus figure in the bible, accross almost all christian denominations, is one of redemption for humankind.
the way that jesus accomplishes that redemption, however, differs between them.
according to the gospels god, or god's son, lived a man's life and died as a man in redemption of mankind.
Also it must be remembered that the only canonical gopsles we have are the ones authorized by the RCC. There are many other writings that aren't included for one reason or another. Also what is contained in the Vatican library that the Vatican refuses to reveal to the public?
The Gnostic texts (which are older than any copy of the gospels) imply that Jesus and Mary were married.
So we might never know unless the Vatican opens it's archives. I suspect it keeps those records secret because destroying them would be sacriligeous but revealing them might topple the church. Lots of thing to consider.
the jesus figure in the bible, accross almost all christian denominations, is one of redemption for humankind.
the way that jesus accomplishes that redemption, however, differs between them.
according to the gospels god, or god's son, lived a man's life and died as a man in redemption of mankind.
I would have to disagree about the origin of Mary's last name. It most likely refers to the area where she was from, Magdala.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdala The provided link tells the reader exactly what Magdala means both in the Hebrew and the Greek. It does NOT mean Magician. THAT word is the anglicized form of the latin word Magus. In it's plural form we know it as Magi (like the astrologers /astronomers who came to visit Jesus after his birth).
A discussion of the Kabbalah from a Jewish perspective can be found here: http://www.jewfaq.org/kabbalah.htm and helps the reader to know what it is and is not.
Interesting discussion though.
can someone explain why jws shun disfellowshipped ones when they are at their meetings (i.e.
making moves to come back)?.
i can understand why you may not want to 'socialize' with ones who do not share your beliefs.. but surely shunning such ones at the 'meetings'; assuming they are not there to cause trouble, is unloving; should they not be welcomed like the prodigal son.. true christians are known by the 'love' they show.
Pretty much the same hare as Quendi said.
I was DFed in March 1999 and when I eventually wne tback it was in another state. I rode to the meetings in the winter with one of the Elders (because of snow), did my studies. I wasn't allowed in the KH until the song was starting even though it might be 15 F outside (or less). Then I was allowed in (at the back of course) and when the meeting was over I had to wait outside. Since the one I rode with was an Elder he normally chatted with people while I waited for up to 45 minutes for him and his wife to finish talking. If I got impatient and decided to walk home, I would be chastised as they felt it was too cold for me to walk 3 miles home (yet they had no problem making me wait outside for them). In Illinois the winters are 9 months long so it was difficult. I went to this hall for 6 months before submitting my letter. The Elders contacted my former cong, but received no reply after a month, so I telephoned the PO for my old hall, got the correct mailing address (since the one the Society had on file was incorrect somehow). My old cong. had no record as to why I was DFed and no one remembered. So it was up to me to provide the information.
This is where it gets interesting. I was DFed for allowing an unmarried couple to live with me. Yet in the time that I had been DFed and the time I worked towards reinstatement I had gotten involved in other religions (pagan). because of this one of the more influential Elders told me that if it were up to him, I would never be reinstated. I mentioned how others had done similar things in the Bible and they were forgiven but apparently that didn't matter to him. His own married son had been DFed for 5 years before he allowed his son the be reinstated. This Elder was also father to the other two elders on the JC committe so my chances were pretty much nil.
I told them I wasn't going to come any longer and was asked why. I said it was because of the one Elder's hard-heartedness and then relayed what he told me. He lied and said he never said such a thing and I was a bad person for even suggesting it.
O.o
That was enough for me. This was 6 years ago in the East Congregation in Moline, Illlinois
the jesus figure in the bible, accross almost all christian denominations, is one of redemption for humankind.
the way that jesus accomplishes that redemption, however, differs between them.
according to the gospels god, or god's son, lived a man's life and died as a man in redemption of mankind.
One of the things that always caught my attention was the Jewish Priests use of the term Rabbi when addressing Jesus on occasion. This is in the NWT not in others. The link shows the use is erroneous as the term wasn't used until 200 CE and was first mentioned in the Jewish Mishna (not the Bible). I bring this up because supposedly (I'm not exactly sure) a persson seeking to be a Rabbi must be married as it would be difficult, not to mention improper to give couself to a married couple if you had no experience in marriage.
If you look at the Apocryplah writings, especially the Gospel of Mar Magdalene it seems that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife. It mentions Jesus kissing Mary on the mouth (in several verses) and that Peter was especially jealous of her. It also mentions that Mary (not Peter) was appointed by Jesus to succeed him as leader of the movement after his death. One of the clues as to whether Mary was married (or at least a widow) is that she roamed around freely with the disciples. Women just didn't do this in ancient Israel UNLESS they had money or a man to provide for them since women weren't allowed to hold down secular jobs. This can bee seen by the widow who's son died (whom Jesus raised). Withot a son to provide for her she would be destitute since she also had no husband. This is why sons were valued more than daughters because fo them being able to provide materially.
Mary Magdalene traveled around wuite extensively with Jesus and no mention was ever made of a husband. To modern readers we woulodn't think twice about it, but to someone in those times it would be something very unusual for a single woman with seemingly no income to spend large amounts of time in Jesus' company. Hence the RCC labeling her as a prostitute to take away some of her glory and to put the focus on Peter.
So the things the Bible doesn't say, when considered with historical background does seem to support the case for Mary Magdalene being the wife of Jesus. Then again we really don't know.
dear friends:.
for years now after my exit from the wtbts i have searched for god.
as i have previously mentioned in other threads i looked into many other religions, including druidry, zen and tibetan buddhism (not really a religion), asatru, native american shamanism, kemetic orthodoxy, gnosticism and pandeism.
I want to thank everyone for the kind words of encouragement.
Something that has been on my mind as of late is that it seems religion can separate us from our humanity. What I mean is we have different sects, denominations etc that instead of bring us together seem to push us farther apart. In the grand scheme of things it should be the opposite and for some it is. But overall many of us allow the trappings of our beliefs to look down on our neighbors or to see them as "bad" because of perceived "sin". When I was a JW I felt that way. I felt that the world was going to end and there wasn't anything I could do about it but hope that those who heard "the message" would repent, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah.
In hindsight I realize that I didn't have enough faith. Not in an invisible god but rather in my fellow human beings. Religion teaches us that we're simply not good enough. It teaches us that we're all little children playing in the dirt and that we need a parent figure to guide us. Yet that parent figure can't be bothered to show up or do anything unless it suits them (not at all what one would expect from a loving parent).
It has been said on these forums that in order to have a relationship with God we must follow a set of beliefs who's correctness is often in doubt. Seems to me the best thing we can do is love one another, without regard to race, religion, nationality or whatever. It's as plain as the nose on your face, yet still people hold hatred in their hearts for those who do not share the same religious viewpoint.
One thing I do believe as far as religion is concerned is that in our quest to know if god exists we have lost faith in each other. We look to our parent figure to get us out of messes, rather than to ourselves and each other.
Jeremiah 10:23 says "that to earthling man his way does not belong, it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his own step."
I disagree with this. Consider that more blood has been shed in the name of god than anything else. More anguish has been brought about because of god than any other single means in our history.
People say we shouldn't blame god because it is our actions that cause these problems.
Well to those I say "where is god?" When I was thirsting and hungry why did you not feed me? When innocent people were being killed by tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, earthquakes etc...where was god? When my friends turned on me because I left the cult I was in, where was god to comfort me?
The only people you can depend on is yourself and each other. We often see news stories where total strangers intercede on another's behalf to give them aid. Perhaps people of differing religions, (yet that is never mentioned) offering food and shelter to the homeless and sick. Yet god can't be bothered to intercede just ONCE to prove his love for us or that even cares one bit.
These are things I haven't been able to put to rest in my own mind and I'm sure many of you have had similar questions/doubts.
I just wanted to share these thoughts and get your input and to thank you once again for all your kind words.
Peace,
Awen
