Posts by Awen

98

Why Some Cannot "See" that the Bible is NOT the Word of God

by AGuest in

jw
friends

to the household of god, israel, and those who go with... may you all have peace.

some of you may have recently observed some discussions regarding what... or rather, who... the word of god is, truly.

in those and other threads, some participants weren't able to grasp the difference between discussion vs. contention... and defending their own faith... and love of god and christ... vs. ramming their [mis]assumptions as to the "vengeance of god"... down others' throats.

Awen

On the other hand I will share something I've only thought about and never shared with anyone. It causes me no end of confusion on the topic of the Bible/Judaism/Christianity.

I sometimes think that the Bible is nothing more than a history book and a collection of mythologies meant for the people of Israel only. Consider that the New Testament was written 2,000 years ago and to them the world was very small. The nation of Israel was the center of the world (in their eyes) and everything written in it is from their point of view. This makes me think of the "Book of Going Forth by Day" (The Egyptian Book of the Dead) and how all the rituals and such are written from an Egyptian viewpoint. Never does it enter into the Egyptian mind that their viewpoint is somehow flawed. Their viewpoint and commentaries are the only ones that matter to them. Such seems to be the case of the Bible. You can look at it from a strictly Israelite point of view and how everything relates to them, or you can read the scriptures and say "hey, Jesus was talking about everyone when he said "go therefore and make disciples of all the people of all the nations, etc" He was talking globally. But is this simply not an assumption on our part? I have done a lot of research into the personage of Jesus. Some say he existed, some say not. Some show similarities to the Roman God Mithra (virgin birth, 12 Apostles, rising from the dead) and say that the Chritian writers merely co-opted many already existing religions to further their own goals. There exists very little secular evidence for the person of Jesus, only the influence he had on others and second hand accounts. It's so very hard to put together the pieces of evidence and decide if he really existed at all. Outside of the Bible, there is almost no mention of Jesus at all. Yet that isn't true of other historical figures. Why is that?

Why does the Bible only exist in fragment form and not a complete set of books? I would think that if YHWH wanted us to know it all, it would be available to us, but it's not. We have copies of copies who's literary value is called into questioned by the discovery of scribal errors. Consider the Gospels were written 40 years after the death of Jesus. Who can recall events that far back with any degreee of accuracy?

Some might say his influence on the world shows that he existed. Yet that can be chalked up to how his followers spread the Gospels, usually by politics and the point of the sword (both of which Jesus opposed) and this is still being done. I've looked into the Deluge of Noah's Day and I get conclicting accounts. Not only from Theologians, but from Geologists, Botanists, etc. They all seem to have a different opinion and different "evidence." I would think that if any of it were true, there would be concrete irrefutable evidence. But there isn't. It seems that it all comes down to faith and faith alone. That is a problem for me as my exit from the WTS destroyed any faith I had and now I'm left with only questions.

I can debate a Bible topic easily enough and put forth a hypothesis based upon my own understanding of the text. But when it comes down to whether what's in the Bible is true or not then I'm left with doubt and questions. Doubt for me doesn't mean something is wrong, it simply means I haven't found the answer. I find myself arguing many times in favor of Jesus and many times against religion. I don't really have any beliefs, just a lot of ideas. I don't know if Jesus is the Son of YHWH, or YHWH himself or a flying spaghetti monster in human form. I just don't know. I do believe (the one belief I do have) there is a God. What form or how He/She interacts with us and how we are to interact in return is what baffles me.

Peace,

Awen

42

Was there anything different about you that helped you escape the WT?

by Giordano in

for me i know it was because i was a reader.. i began reading books at the age of 13, this was in the 1950's.

because there were some serious family problems i had two escapes i could count on reading and associating with my friends at the kingdom hall.. as i devoured steinbeck, hemingway, wolf etc.

my world view expanded....it had to.

Awen

I read the FreeMinds website articles and read my Bible without using WT publications. I also saw a few advertisements on TV which spoke out against the JW's. I decided to question everything and not simply take someone's word for something just because they published a book or have some sort of authority. I realized that my having to "render an account" would be based entirely upon my own deeds and the words of others would most likely be discounted as I do have free will. I can't be like Adam and try to put the blame on God, i.e. "the woman you gave me told me to eat and thus I ate." Adam, like myself had free will and was accountable for his own actions and not those of others.

This is what opened my eyes.

Peace,

Awen

41

Opinion-Is This Clear Evidence that Jehovah's Holy Spirit is with The Watchtower?

by DavinciCodeBreaker in

jw
friends

i was having a discussion with an aquaintance about if there was evidence that the watchtower has jehovah's holy spirit.

he said, "given the fact that no other organization has won more supreme court cases than jehovah's witnesses to protect their religious freedom in north america and abroad is unrefutable evidence of jehovah's blessing by means of his holy spirit".. your thoughts?.

Awen

had to re-post. Went to edit and messed it up.

Does the WTBTS lawyers prepare their cases or do they do as Jesus instructed and simply wait for the Holy Spirit to tell them what to say? I think you know the answer. When WTS lawyers can step into a courtroom and win cases this way, then I'll believe the WTBTS has YHWH's Holy Spirit. Until then I'll put my faith in the Packers. Much less chance of disappointment.

Peace,

Awen

41

Opinion-Is This Clear Evidence that Jehovah's Holy Spirit is with The Watchtower?

by DavinciCodeBreaker in

jw
friends

i was having a discussion with an aquaintance about if there was evidence that the watchtower has jehovah's holy spirit.

he said, "given the fact that no other organization has won more supreme court cases than jehovah's witnesses to protect their religious freedom in north america and abroad is unrefutable evidence of jehovah's blessing by means of his holy spirit".. your thoughts?.

Awen

98

Why Some Cannot "See" that the Bible is NOT the Word of God

by AGuest in

jw
friends

to the household of god, israel, and those who go with... may you all have peace.

some of you may have recently observed some discussions regarding what... or rather, who... the word of god is, truly.

in those and other threads, some participants weren't able to grasp the difference between discussion vs. contention... and defending their own faith... and love of god and christ... vs. ramming their [mis]assumptions as to the "vengeance of god"... down others' throats.

Awen

A very wonderful post AGuest (Peace be within and with you).

Seems as though I recall you at one point told me (or it could have been someone else) that after reading the Bible, the best thing I could do is throw it away. I understand what you meant by that. The Law of Moses was a tutor leading to Christ and Christ is a tutor leading to YHWH who is Love. I could never understand why the WTBTS repeatedly referenced the Law of Moses when it's clearly stated "Christ is the end of the Law". The Law was intended to show the Israelites that they couldn't approach God on their own, that is to say, sin and innate human selfishness would always get in the way.

Jesus was very clear on the matter of where the Law fits into the lives of Israelites (not Gentiles who have 'adopted' it in our modern times) and he was very clear that after his death, the Law would no longer apply to anyone. But until that time, the Law was in full force and so he rebuffed those who charged that he came to destroy it, saying that heaven and earth would sooner pass away than the Law would (in the context of before he died,which people seem to not understand).

So by dying a sacrificial death and keeping the Law, Christ did two things (among many others). He showed that the Law could be kept by a perfect man, in my opinion showing Adam and Eve could have worshipped YHWH with no problems had they not been selfish by taking something that didn't belong to them. Had they truly shown Love towards YHWH, then none of this would have ever happened. The second thing that was shown was that in order to be Christ-like, we needed to dispense with the Law of Moses and instead embrace the Law of Christ. That is to say, Love, not unbending rules should be the yardstick for how we deal with others.

I agree with your statements that Paul at first tried to put people back under the Law. I myself don't consider Paul to be an Apostle (except perhaps in his own mind). Remember though that Jesus said "he that is not against us, is for us." We only have the testimony of Paul about his conversion and a disciple, Ananias. The accounts in Acts 9 relate how he was converted and that Jesus said he was to be a chosen intrument to preach to the nations, nowhere in the account is Paul named an Apostle by Jesus. It would seem unlikely that Paul would go from being a neophyte to being an Apostle almost overnight. This Apotleship seems to be a title he took upon himself so that others might recognize his "authority". It seems to me he missed the point of Jesus words at Mark 10:44 "and who ever wants to be first among you , must be the slave of everyone else." I think this is because he had not read these words yet and was still behaving like a Pharisee with all their concern over titles and authority over the people. When he learned that the Law of Christ is about Love and not rules, his teachings and personality changed.

The letters of Paul show that he never met Jesus, never once does he quote from him, nor does he reference any of the parables Jesus used. It also mentions his apparent disdain for some of the Apostles, calling them "super fine", which to me showed some jealousy as well. In Revelation 21:14 it says the names of the twelve (not thirteen) Apostles are written on the foundation stones of the Hoy City, New Jerusalem (sprititual Israel). Also the Apostles didn't trust Paul which seems odd because the Holy Spirit would have told the Apostles that they had nothing to worry about. Considering he IS addressing the Apostles and not disciples when he calls them "super fine" seems to reinforce this conjecture. It's not until the Gospels were written around 90-95 CE that Paul's letters change. Most of Paul's letters were written before that time and this helps to explain why his letters were so very different than what Jesus and his directly appointed Apostles wrote. Time and again they speak of Love, whereas Paul at first speaks about the Law of Moses. It's only after the Gospels being written down and circulated do we see a change in his writings. So in my opinion there should be some sort of preface to his letters to better explain this problem with when the writings (Pauls letters vs Gospels) were written and circulated, but there isn't and it causes much confusion.

I also agree that the church of Christ (or Temple) isn't something tangible. That is to say it's not a visible earthly organization. If there was a GB in the 1st Century then why did Paul write all his letters to the various congregations and not leave it up to the the 1st Century GB? Also why is it in Revelation when Jesus admonishes/chastises the churches in Asia does he not also chastise the supposedly then existing GB? Because there never was one. The Church is made up of the people themselves. It's not a building or an organization. There is no need to be under someone else's headship (other than Christ's). Humans are imperfect and prone to corruption. Jesus told us that the only teacher we would ever need would be the Holy Spirit. Nothing is ever said about a man-made earthly organization doing any of this. Why does the Kingdom rule from Heaven (where neither rust consumes nor thieves break in) rather than on the earth where dwell imperfect beings? This very idea of a heavenly ruled kingdom shows that the WTBTS is completely in error.

Personally I think the GB and those who persecute their fellow Christians (and everyone else for that matter) because of their own self-righteousness (and adherence to rules, rather than love) are going to have a lot to answer for. I suspect many of the anointed will have their promised "crowns" taken from them and they will be destroyed by YHWH for their presumptousness. Matthew 7:22 will then be fulfilled.

May you have peace.

Awen

73

Why so many Atheist VS. Christian discussions here?

by mindmelda in

i notice a lot of the discussions seem to be atheist vs christian here.

or is that just my perception?.

but, do the other people who are neither just not care to debate as much or are there just fewer or them, or both?.

Awen

In my opinion what happens is when people leave the Org, many feel that everything they were taught (even the nature of God) has to be false as well and so they throw it all out. In my opinion this is a mistake (I have made it as well). I don't fault God for my problems as a JW, afterall I have free will and chose to stay in an abusive organization. Many will say they have friends and family etc, but it's just an excuse. I had/have these things as well and I had to determine which was more important to me, my own mental health and well-being or being close to my family and friends who's "love" was conditional upon me staying an active JW.? It's not love.

I didn't leave God. I left an abusive man made organization that claimed to represent God, but by their works I knew them to be liars. I also left people who claimed to be my friends and family but were more interested in saving face with an organization than taking a chance and applying the example of Jesus in their lives than they were in showing love to a fellow human being.

51

ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT DINOSAURS AREN'T MILLIONS OF YEARS OLD!

by Mary in

jw
friends

yesterday, i went out for lunch with my parents when my mother made mention of something she had read in the newspaper about some new discovery of species that went extinct millions of years ago.

she asked my father what method is used to determine the age of something, because of course, this flies directly in face of the biblical account of life on this planet being only a few thousand years old.. anyway, my father related a story that some brother he ran into recently at the assembly told him.

this [unnamed] brother related a story told to him by another [unnamed] elder who knew an [unnamed] circuit serpent who was "really chummy with one of the [unnamed] executives at the royal ontario museum".

Awen

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/carbon14.html

Problems with Radiometric and Carbon dating.

38

The WT Headship Principle (tm): Did you ever REALLY buy it?

by Open mind in

i believed that god was the big boss and his first-line supervisor was jesus.. .

everything beyond that got a bit shaky for me throughout my jw life.. .

but this bit, i never bought into for even an instant: the husband is the head of the wife.. .

Awen

I recall this sister I knew named Laurie who ended up marrying a new brother by the name of Walt. I liked Laurie and was unaware that she was looking for a husband. Had I known this I would have put more effort into my friendship with her as I thought she was such a compassionate and knowledgeable person. Along comes Walt, they click and they get married. I hung out with them both and was happy that they were happy. One day I was at their house and Walt was speaking to me about some spiritual matter when Laurie interjected into the conversation with her opinion. Walt immediately said "hey cna't you see that men are speaking here? Mind your tongue and wait until you're acknowledged."

I was shocked. My first reaction was the wallop Walt in the jaw, but it wasn't my place. Instead I picked up on Laurie's comment and asked her to explain it more as I was just a dumb guy and didn't quite get what she said. So she told me her opinion and I thanked her and praised her for being such a good student of the Bible. I then told Walt how much I envied him for having such a capable wife and that he was so blessed.

Walt paused a moment and then apologized to his wife for snapping at her. Laurie smiled at him and then at me. Later she thanked me for standing up for her.

19

Share Your Tales of Annoying Car Group Advice

by DarioKehl in

jw
friends

ohhhh.... do i ever have loads of these stories!

i pioneered in the mid-90's (mostly out of guilt and fear and hope to pacify my parents before dropping the "i wanna go to college" bombshell on them, but i digress...) and i gotta tell ya, it was the most frustrating 2 years of my life!

at that time, there were over 20 of us as many my age recently graduated high school to "join the ranks" (as the co at the time said).

Awen

I tried pioneering a few times but got so sick of younger Brothers who had just gotten their license telling me how to drive or that only Kingdom Melodies could be played while out in FS (classical music is what I played it was frowned upon). I had the same brother who tried to tell me how to drive also call me a glutton for ordering 6 Big Macs and eating three of them in one sitting. I'm 6' tall and weigh 225 lbs and have a big appetite. I told him he was a judgmental prick who needed to mind his own business and look up the definition of a glutton. A glutton is someone who eats for the sake of eating and practices it. I told the brother I had not eaten since the previous afternoon and to let him try going so long without eating and see how hungry he got. There is nothing wrong with having a big meal every now and again. His attitude showed a lack of compassion towards the plight of others, especially considering he didn't know how long I had been without food.

Oddly enough this brother was seen as really dumb and yet got into Bethel the first time he applied. Go figure.

51

ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT DINOSAURS AREN'T MILLIONS OF YEARS OLD!

by Mary in

jw
friends

yesterday, i went out for lunch with my parents when my mother made mention of something she had read in the newspaper about some new discovery of species that went extinct millions of years ago.

she asked my father what method is used to determine the age of something, because of course, this flies directly in face of the biblical account of life on this planet being only a few thousand years old.. anyway, my father related a story that some brother he ran into recently at the assembly told him.

this [unnamed] brother related a story told to him by another [unnamed] elder who knew an [unnamed] circuit serpent who was "really chummy with one of the [unnamed] executives at the royal ontario museum".

Awen

Well the problem I see with dating of any sort is that no human has lived long enough to know whether the dating techniques are accurate unless it's something we already know the age of based upon our own history. These are all simply unproven theories as to how long a certain isotope (be it radioactive or not) takes to break down. They may break down at a certain rate at present, but these tests are done in a controlled laboratory environment and the sample is removed from the environment which could theoretically influence the rate of decay.

This link is from a site that supports the accuracy of RC-14 dating, yet admits that it's not accurate past 45,000 years.

So how do scientists get that dinosaurs are millions of years old when RC-dating isn't reliable past 45k years as admitted by the scientists who use the techniques?