Posts by Larsinger58

109

Early Civilizations and Bible Chronology

by xelder in

Larsinger58

Because of limitations of radiocarbon-14 dating prior to 1500+ BCE when it starts to get distorted, pre 16th Century BCE chronology is up for grabs as far as science proving anything and linking that to a consistent history. But right now we have good C14 dating for the fall of Jericho by Joshua and for Shishak's invasion which can confirm the Exodus c. 1386 BCE, with a consistent historical parallel between the Bible and secular history via the Neo-Assyrians down into the Persian Period when the Bible's OT history ends during the reign of Darius II.

Having noted that, I've found an aggressive avoidance of linking the Exodus to Akhenaten, the pharaoh who became a monotheist who we can now confirm appeared at the time of the Exodus, thus linking his monotheism to the 10 plagues. So lying archaeologists and the academic world is always going to be a problem with chronology, because so many are anti-Biblicists. That is, when something does show up in archaeology to agree with the Bible you have aggressive avoidance or dismissal of that evidence.

So pre Exodus or fall of MBA Jericho can't be dated accurately by C14, but from the fall of MBA Jericho c. 1550 BCE forward we have good scientific evidence from both C14 and archaeology to compare events, along with astrochronology from the earliest known eclipse from Ugarit (KTU 1.78) dating the 12th of Akhenaten to 1375 BCE, then other criticial eclipse references along the way down into the Greco-Persian Period that affect the timeline of both the Bible and secular records. But you do have to wade through some revisionism along the way, something most researchers are incapable of comprehending or unwilling to consider, which is not a problem when you're just looking and comparing.

In the meantime, challenged or disproven, the Bible literalists like JWs establish a period of just 2513 years from the creation of Adam to the Exodus. The WTS' interpretation of the Biblical timeline has them dating the Exodus in 1513 BCE whereas as archaeology dates the Exodus c. 1386 BCE as does jubilee dating when the 70th jubilee is linked to 1947, the final return of the Jews to their homeland. So this gives a high-low range for the creation of Adam between 4026 BCE (JWs) and 3899 BCE (jubilee/archaeological).

Critical and credible C14 dating comes from destructive layers where short-lived grains are found and then dated by C14. MBA Jericho and its walls were attacked at the time of the Hyksos expulsion by the Egyptians who fired the outside of the walls, superheataing them so that the interior caught fire. At that time there were fresh grain stores that were burned. A very large amount (several busshels) which offer an incredibly excellent C14 dating sample, dating that destruction c. 1550 BCE. In addition, someone outside the archaeological community recently went to various museums containing Egyhptian artifacts from various tombs, including grain samples which add additional confirmation that at least the Egyptian timeline from the period of Ahmose on is very consisten with the current dating give or take a few years toward earlier dating.

So, again, as noed, pre MBA dating which is supported by great C14 samples establishes a critical scientific timeline that can be compared to the various Biblical timelines, but prior to that there is no sicence that I've seen that would effectively support or contradict the Bible. Those claiming some civilizations are 10,000 years old are just speculating with no C14 support for such claims. All that can be said is that the Biblical timeline contradicts any pseudo-science or spurious archaeological claims for civilized man prior to 2513 years prior to whenever you are dating the Exodus, thus prior to 4026-3899 BCE.

So debate away and come to your conclusions about pre-MBA chronology, but after that we have good archaeological and scientific dating available, some of which agrees with some of the Biblical timelines now in place. Basically, critical science and the Bible have good agreement chronologically after the MBA Period, especially during the current dating of the 18th Dynasty, but speculative science and archaeology tend to extend chronology past the Biblical timeline which dates the creation of Adam best c. 3899 BCE. I acknowledge potential discrepancies prior to the MBA period between the Bible and archaeology/archaeologists, but not afterward, that is, not after effective C14 and astronomy dating from the 16th Century BCE now available.

LS

15

That's one fancy trick

by N.drew in

revelation 6:1-2. the watchtower has jesus in heaven with the one seated upon the throne (revelation 5:1) pictured as a lamb (revelation 5:6)and at the same time (6:1) as a rider on a white horse (revelation 6:2).

one of the four living creatures says (with of voice as of thunder) come!

all authority had been given jesus in heaven and on earth.

Larsinger58

The conquests of Christ at the second coming are primarily spiritual and doctrinal. The long sword of his mouth represents his Biblical expertise to cut through false teachings.

So that's fulfilled. I'm the Christ and I have conquered. The ancient and well kept secret that Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king and that the Persians added 82 fake years to their timeline still persists! But I uncovered this and have corrected the timeline. So I have conquered, that is, academically and doctrinally. The response so far to my evidence that 455 BCE was the 1st of Cyrus, per the Bible and even per the VAT4956 is to call me crazy. So there's no true academic response to that.

So I have the truth now along with the elect, even if others choose to stay in the darkness. So not only can I reset the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE with complete confidence, my "conquest" is complete, because I correct the Greek, Persian and Babylonian timelines and then correct the Assyrian timeline and date the Exodus at the beginning of the reign of Akhenaten who became a monotheist after the 10 plagues. That is a secret that is aggressively protected even now. No one wants to even discuss dating the Exodus during the reign of Akhenaten because it is far too obvious that's the reason he became a monotheist and thus "Aten" was the god associated with the Hebrew God YHWH.

So, yes, I've conquered. All but the elect don't want to recognize I've conquered, but they know I have. And for those still deceived, let them continue deceived.

I'm the "King of Kings and Lord or Lords" when it comes to truth, both ancient and current.

LS

19

RE: Scripture Conflict Analysis.

by s-c-3-1-3 in

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Larsinger58

Please note that while Christians clearly understand the fundamental references to the "70 weeks", at least for the 1st coming, that this is definitely a prophecy about dating the messiah's appearance, which has actually come true, by the way, that they aggressively must dismiss this as being "messianic" because they have no alternative "messiah" to fulfill this.

But the Jews are not deluded into thinking this prophecy which begins with the rebulding of Jerusalem in the 1st of Cyrus can be fulfilled by anything else. This means, with the current false timeline in place, they have a messianic figure needing to be fulfilled some 82 years earlier. This false chronology and the prophecy is clearly the basis for Herod thinking he was fulfilling this prophecy and likely inspired him to rebuild the temple. Further some believed he was the promised messiah and developed a cult of Herod and were known as the "Herodians." But for the Jews, it seems easiest just to say this is not a messianic prophecy at all.

In the meantime, the Jews were key in helping the Persians hide the identity of Xerxes, whom they loved. That's why they suppressed their own historical books of Daniel and Ezra/Nehemiah, originally one book called "Esdras" which they replaced with another version of "Esdras" known as the apocryphal "Esdras." You only need to compare "Esdras" with canonical Ezra and Nehemiah, plus Josephus to realize the part of history being suppressed. What is left out is the history of Nehemiah as cupbearer to Artaxerxes.

Even so, in modern times, the Jews have claimed that the Persian Period is too long and has too many kings. They produced their own timeline where the 6th of Darius I occurs in 532 BCE. That is totally rediciulous and they certainly don't believe that dating. But if you know Jewish historians, like Josephus and the cryptic dating from Herodotus, we have to look further to see if 352 BCE is a relavant cryptic dating pointing to the true date for year 6 of Darius. When we do we find a connection. The revised date is 82 years earlier than the original date. That is, the completion of the temple is dated to 516 BCE. The temple took 21 years to complete starting from the 1st of Cyrus, which dates that event to 434 BCE. 455 - 21 = 434 BCE. If you subtract exactly 82 years from 434 BCE you get the Jewish date of 352 BCE. In other words, the Jewish rabbis are mocking the revised secular date which is 82 years too early, so they create a timeline that is 82 years too late. But this proves some elite Jewish rabbinical circles have never lost track of the original chronology. So it would seem if the original timeline ever became official and they were faced to a messiah fulfilling the "70 weeks" prpohecy in 29 CE, they would be faced with coming up with an alternative messiah than Christ. In the meantime, saying nothing about the revised timeline would cause Christ not to fulfill the 70 weeks prophecy in 29 CE, thus they have a legitmate basis for denying Jesus Christ as the promised messiah.

This makes it impossible for the average researcher to likely resolve this, that is, because of the lies and the efforts to keep this phony timeline in place. The WTS and COJ and Furuli are all culprits in this regard since all use and promote 539 BCE as a reliable, legitimate date, even if they don't agree on any other dating. So they are ALL false promoters of this false timeline, partially or fully. The true timeline, which dates the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE will date the messiah's appearance in 29 CE, which was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. So anyone Jewish has a potential conflict of interest in exposing the false timeline, even though it is easy to follow their own cryptic dating to confirm what the original timeline was.

My position is that the elect needed to be able to resolve this and that is sufficient. If the rest of the Christian and Jewish community never get it, it doesn't matter since they are not candidates for the kingdom, which is limited to 1,440,000.

Anyway, so much for false prophets and those in the darkness who loved to be deceived by them.

LS

19

RE: Scripture Conflict Analysis.

by s-c-3-1-3 in

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Larsinger58

JEFFRO:

in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

The 70 weeks begins with the fall of Jerusalem in 587BC as the starting point "to make atonement for error".

(FROM LINK)

Wrong, Jeffor. The termination of the transgression occurred at the time of the HOLOCAUST, the "great tribulation." Your reference points are that the "great tribuilation" is 1) a one-time event and (2) that specifically happens during the end times. The "great tribuilation" is what finally finishes off transgression. The "great tribulation" was a future event and did not occur at the time of the fall of Jerusalem.

Zech 13:8 speaks of 2/3rds of the Jews dying during the great tribulation and one-third being restored to their promised land at which time God would have forgiven them and become their God again. The Holocaust exterminated 6 million Jews out of 9 million.

ZECH 13:

8 “And it must occur in all the land,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “[that] two parts in it are what will be cut off [and] expire; and as for the third [part], it will be left remaining in it. 9 And I shall certainly bring the third [part] through the fire; and I shall actually refine them as in the refining of silver, and examine them as in the examining of gold. It, for its part, will call upon my name, and I, for my part, will answer it. I will say, ‘It is my people,’ and it, in its turn, will say, ‘Jehovah is my God.’”

You, Jeffro, are very intelligent and very well read, but not well read enough to have been exposed to all the interpretations of the 70 weeks. The above interpretation allows for two interpretations of the 70 weeks, and yes, regarding the coming of the messiah, only it is a double prophecy that occurs twice. That is, the messiah does not just arrive to fulfill the 70 weeks from 29-36 CE, that's just the first coming. The second coming is the one that occurs during the end times and is connected with the great tribulation and the end of the covenant, which does not end until 1996. Once you understand that some things are linked with the 1st-coming 70 weeks and others with the 2nd-coming 70 weeks, then it will all make sense.

For the second coming, just for your information, is broken up into 62, 1 and 7. That is, the "cut off" or the great tribulation begins during the final 490 years from 1506 to 1996 (1506 + 490 = 1996). 434 years is 62 weeks and thus begins in 1940. Following this is the 7 years of the "great tribulation", followed by the final jubilee period of 7 weeks of 49 years from 1947 to 1996, where the Jews celebrate their return from exile. 1506 is derived fundamentally by simply counting 490-year periods from 36 CE. 4x490=1960 + 36 = 1996 - 490 = 1506.

Now the reason I'm telling you this is so that you can expand and correct your own interpretation of the "70 weeks." I have the correct interpretation because I'm the messiah, so I'm debating this with you, I'm just letting you know what the correct interpretation is and where your interpretation falls short. Still, I'm very impressed with your grasp of the topic which is far greater than probably than anyone else here.

I will note in passing though, that the Jews aggressively try to disconnect Daniel's prophecy with anything "messianic", which of course, is a joke. The prophecy is extremely messianic and they know it. But if so, they have to come up with a messiah in addition to denying Christ fulfilled the 70 weeks, so that's their propagandistic choice. You'll never convince anyone this prophecy is not messianic. Further, it has come true. 29 CE fixes the dating of both 70-week periods for the first and second coming. The WTS is correct by default to begin the prpohecy in 455 BCE. As you very observantly note, they twist secular history around to make this fit the 20the of Artaxerxes, which is their choice. But even COJ admits that Cyrus should have fulfilled that prophecy and thus the 1st of Cyrus should fall in 455 BCE. When you explore that timeline, then the VAT4956 and the SK400 astronomical texts make sense out of their cryptic "errors." The VAT4956 dates year 37 of Neb-II to 511 BCE as well as 568 BCE. The cryptic dating preempts the epificial dating and thus 511 BCE must be used as the official original Babylonian dating for year 37 of Neb-II whether we like it or not. This challenges the Biblical timeline based on 29 CE for the appearance of the messiah after 483 years (69 weeks) and the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE. However, there is no problem here when you carefully follow Josephus who established the traditional historical understanding that the 70 years of "servitude" to Neb-II and his sons (which includes Darius the Mede who was the grandson of Neb-II) began with the last deportation, year 23 of Neb-II. Add 70 years to 455 BCE and year 23 of Neb-II would fall in 525 BCE. That means year 37 falls in 511 BCE, just as the VAT4956 is trying to tell us. The SK400 matches a double eclipse to 541 BCE in the context of "year 7" of Kambyses, which does not work. But when you substitute 541 BCE for another Babylonian or Persian king, it works perfectly for Neb-II, since year 7 dated to 541 BCE matches year 37 dated to 511 BCE. So now both texts and the bible are in complete agreement.

If you don't correct the NB timeline then you will always have erroneous conclusions.

Now you're smart, maybe brilliant. For this to work you must note that Xerxes and Artaxerxes are the same king. That's a requirement for the Bible.

Now, this is YOUR research note. Ezra 6:14,15 gives us the accession year of "Artaxerxes" in "year 6" of Darius. That means Darius I died in his 6th years which can be confirmed by the eclipse in the first year of the PPW and the solar eclipse that occurred when Xerxes begins his invasion. This is compared to Daniel 12:2 where we find the successor to Darius I invades Greece, a historically well established fact during the regin of Xerxes. The Persian kings went by two names often and Xerxes went by "Artaxerxes", which was not known in Greece so he took advantage of that when Themistocles fled there to fool the Greeks into thinking that the "Artaxerxes" on the throne was the son of "Xerxes." But the Bible shows that "Artaxerxes" and Xerxes are the same king. This alone eliminates 51 years of fake Persian history just based on the Bible. 21 years for the reign of Xerxes which was the same as Artaxerxes' first 21 years, and 30 years for a 36-year rule of Darius I which the Bible clearly shows was only 6 years. You'll find the archaeology from Behistun, Naqshi-Rustam and Persepolis only support a short reign of Darius I.

Now, you know how to do research and your propagandizing, so you need to get a grip on the above or disprove it if you want to be respected. You've done well and come half way, but you need to do the hard work and go the full distance like I had to. You must date the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE, add back 26 years to the NB Period and remove 82 fake years from the Persian Period or else you're just a false propagandist promoting the false timeline.

That is, IF, you're interested truth and ultimately your own life, right? "Make sure of ALL things..." Keeping in mind that if by your persuasive and authoritative voice you happen to stumble even one of Christ's sheep, it will seal your fate to Gehenna. Stumbling the innocent is very serious business.

Thanks for keeping this topic alive, Jeffro. You have your homework cut out for you. Have a great day.

LS

57

Difficulties understanding passage.

by s-c-3-1-3 in

i am reading colossians 1:15-18, and understand it to mean that jehovah created jesus who then created all other things in the world, thus jesus crall things except for god who created him.

is this correct?

thanks in advance!.

Larsinger58

Sc-3-1-3: Greetings.

If one passage says Jehovah created all things and another says Jesus did, then for both to be true you have to combine that.

Now some resolve this by claiming Jesus and Jehovah are the same entity. But this ignores other scriptures that says Jesus is God's son. So another way to resolve this is by the specific passage that says that first Jehovah created Jesus and then BY HIM, FOR HIM AND THROUGH HIM all things were created.

A WTS illustration of how this works in a modern setting is someone dictating a letter to a secretary. The secretary prepares the letter and the administrator signs it and it goes out. The administrator can say, "I sent you a letter..." even thogh the actual sender was the secretary. The secretary can claim that they created the letter though, which they technically did. So when you use others to carry out your instructions, you still can claim "I did this" and "I did that" when technically you didn't, those who you instructed did.

Not difficult to understand. God can take credit for creating all things "through Christ" in one context, but in another can acknowledge that all things were technically created by Christ as well since it was through Christ all things were created.

SO YOU HAVE A CHOICE:

Does acknowledging Christ's participation in creation mean that he and Jehovah must be one person? Or does it mean Jehvah utilized him in the creation process?

That's your choice. Because the Bible says Jesus is the firstborn of creation, and thus a creature himself, which agrees with why he is called God's SON, I choose the latter to explain how Jesus is said to be the creator of all things. You have chosen to think this means they are the same person. That's your choice.

The Bible acknowledges the trinity doctrine would be a difficult doctrine to overturn for those who embrace it in Christendom, thus characterizing Christendom's believe in the trinity by the "666" which is the trinity formula: three gods yet one god = 666 = three numbers yet one number.

Bottom line, some scriptures do suggest that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person, some of this is "lost in translation" issues. So some will embrace the trinity doctrine based on that. Others will see some of these passages such as "I and the father one" as allegorical, representing what we mean when we say a husband and wife are one flesh, etc.

So since it is so difficult, one will not be jjudged on their belief or non-belief in the trinity doctrine, but other moral issues. Whether Jehovah and Jesus are the same person, if one is confused over that, will become clear after Armageddon and during the millennium.

LS

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

Larsinger58

Gathering yourselves together is being fulfilled right here in this discussion board. You don't need a physical church any more to associate with others of like mindedness.

As far as preaching he "good news", yes, that was fulfilled by JWs in 1947 when NH Knorr did a worldwide speaking tour early in the year. Later that year on November 30, 1947 the "end" occurred as prophesied; that is, the "end of the gentile times" when the Partition Agreement went into effect, officially ending Jewish exile. The "end" of Matthew 24 is misinterpreted by JWs and many others to be the "end of the world" that occurs at Armageddon.

Otherwise, JWs are the true "temple in its right condition" sect from 1886 to 1996. But not after 1996. The parable of the separation of the sheep and goats specirfically applies to the Witness organization. When Christ comes he separates the sheep from the goats in this organization. The sheep are the "little flock" whom he removes and brings to "other sheep not of this fold" where Christ is gathering sheep. Thisis the most important point, therefore, for you to address. That is, that Jesus sends out TEN SLAVES to gather his sheep into different flocks and then those flocks are combined into one. The WTS is one of those ten slaves but which becomes apostatae and an organization mixed with sheep and goats.

The WTS is like a bus going from New York to Los Angeles. Christ is waiting on the West Coast in San Diego. So its okay to ride that bus west until the San Diego turn-off. If you don't get off and change destinations, then continuing on to L.A. will lead to death. Remember, you have to get off the broad road leading off into destruction and go down the narrow path. What does that say? That says that being on the broad road is okay up to a point. But you must remain awake to see when to get off and go down the narrow path.

Your problem is that you think once you have foun the true religion, you must stick with it until the end. WRONG. It is only an approved path until the second coming when Christ shows the way of the sheep to another place and then abandons the WTS which has become apostate.

In other words, the WTS is represented by the 10 virgins. They are all on the same road and their journey is the same. They all nod and all their lamps grow dim. But when the messiah arrives, it is only the 5 wise virgins that get their lamps to burn brightly because they brought the extra oil. They do not share their oil with the foolish virgins, not one drop. This is the point where the sheep are separated from the goats within this organization. This is where the wise virgins leave the broad road and find the narrow path. The foolish virgins, not paying attention, continue down the same broad road that now leads off into destruction.

Salvation comes through the INDIVIDUAL RELATIONSHIP you have with Jehovah and the Bible and not through an organization. Then once you develop this individual faith and connection, then you "gather together" with others who have a direct relationship with Jehovah with no organizational "mediator" to connect them to God and Christ, which is the error of the WTS.

Witnesses fall into idolatry by worshipping the angel that gives them spiritual food. Remember, John was tempted to do this by bowing down to the angel who gave him the vision, but he was told, "Be careful! Do not do that! Worship only God." So yes, it is tempting to be impressed by the WTS who promotes itself as the "faithful and discreet slave" and to rejoice in finding the true religion. But that only goes when they actually are still teaching the truth. When you find them not teaching the truth, then they are not impressive. They want to claim they are the FDS and have you accept that whether they qualify or not or are teaching the truth or not. That's where the division between the sheep and goats or wise and foolish virgins occurs. The foolish virgins don't care about truth and embrace the lies the WTS weaves for them in the darkness. They don't really care if the WTS is right or wrong, they just know this is the only true religion around. But others, who embrace what is in the Bible vs. what is in the Watchtower, like the Bereans who check things out, find out the WTS errors and then they "Get out of Babylon the Great, My people" and find out where else Christ is gathering his flock.

The CRITICAL ERROR is staying with the WTS by default since they see no public organization with these values. But if they read the Bible carefully, they would see that all the other NINE SLAVES where Christ is gathering his sheep are secret societies. The woman is hidden in the "wilderness." The woman represents the primary body of Christ's followers. The "wilderness" represents being hidden and secretive.

Thus the WTS now fulfills an organization where everybody is always taking in knowledge but never coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth. Thus an organization having a form of Godly devotion but proving false in its power.

Yes, the WTS served as the "temple in its right condition" after the 2300 evenings and mornings from 1886 to 1996. Since 1996 Jehovah deals directly with spiritual Israel. Further, the GB was identified as the "man of lawlessness" on November 10, 1992 when a letter was sent to them by an inspired anointed brother informing them of this. Now the WTS has been abandoned into spiritual darkness and is now an apostate organization.

the question you need to ask yourself is: ARE YOU PROMOTING TRUTH? OR YOUR FAVORITE ORGANIZATION?

We are told to KEEP TESTING to see if we are still in the faith. You're not doing that. The WTS might have been the "true religion" in 1960 or 1980, but is it NOW?

LS

64

To all christians...

by wolfman85 in

...should we celebrate the memorial in our homes?

will you do it?

any ideas.

Larsinger58

leavened bread

This bread looks good, but it sure isn't UNLEAVENED bread. This bread has leaven. A quick and easy unleavened bread would be a tortilla chip.

tortilla chip / unleavened bread

This is a good topic though.

64

To all christians...

by wolfman85 in

...should we celebrate the memorial in our homes?

will you do it?

any ideas.

Larsinger58

For those of the elect who pay attention to chronology, regardless of when you think Jerusalem fell, either in 607, 587 or 529 BCE, you should have stopped partaking at the related passovers either in 1914-1915, 1934-1935 or 1992-1993.

It is meaningless to partake to memorialize Christ's death and absence after he has returned. Those still partaking are not recognizing his return.

LS

57

Difficulties understanding passage.

by s-c-3-1-3 in

i am reading colossians 1:15-18, and understand it to mean that jehovah created jesus who then created all other things in the world, thus jesus crall things except for god who created him.

is this correct?

thanks in advance!.

Larsinger58

It's so simple. One is the FATHER. One is the SON. Go to your dictionary and look up "father" and "son" if you don't know the meanings.

If you come up with anything else, then it's wrong. Plain and simple.

"The truth shall set you free."

LS

9

if the Gospels and Revelation were written at different times then how...

by sinis in

did one know that only 144k were only chosen back then?

it would seem that everyone took of the emblems in the first, second, + centurys.

yet, 2000 years later the wts puts a limit on the partakers?

Larsinger58

The 144,000 master the "song of Moses" and also are specifically 12,000 from each tribe. isa 6:13 describes Israel as a tree that is chopped down due to disobedience, with only a remnant left, the root, a royal stump to fulfill the Abrahamic covenant. That stump, though, is likened to 1/10th of the entire tree.

So if, indeed, the 144,000 just represent the root or royal stump, then the total number chosen to be king-priests would be 10X 144K = 1,440,000.

But one then asks how would you literally seal 144,000, 12K from each tribe if the 12 tribes of israel don't exist any more? The answer is that the 12 tribes have to be reborn again. How? Well, just as it took only one individual to start the 12 tribes, only one individual from the 12 tribes need recreate the 12 tribes in modern times. So Christ chose at least one person from each tribe with their genealogy records to prove it to live down to our times and then marry into the modern population so that by 1992 (the second coming) enough Israelites from all 12 tribes would be alive in order to select 12,000 from each tribe.

Did the early Christians know such details? Well, certainly those chosen to survive down to the Lord's day would.

Tje Bob;e says. tje "little one will become a nation and the small one a 1000" and that God would speed it up in its own time, meaning it would take a shorter time than usual. In other words, if each generation produced 5 children each it would take so long before a million descendants would be reached. But if the first couple of generations produced an average of 15 chlidren, it would take a third of that time to reach a million, etc. My grandmother came from a family of 17, my father from a family of 10, and I have one aunt who had 18 children.

Then, again, polygamy has never been condemned in the Bible and in some countries polygamy is legal. So if just one man from each tribe had 5 or six wives each, each of whom produced say 10 children each, you'd have 100 descendants in the next generation. If each of the girls produced 10 children each in the next generation and each male married 10 wives who produced 10 children, then you can see how quickly each tribe could grow in just a short while.

Anyway, the total number is 1,440,000 and the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation is a literal number, with a literal 12,000 from each tribe, made possible by those who could identify their tribe legally during Jesus' time.

Now this will affect no one and doesn't have to be known specifically by anyone to be fulfilled. This is why Jesus says he puts "new wine" in new wineskins and does not put that "new wine" into "old wineskins", because it is just too hard to believe and too distracting and not necessary to believe at this point in time. After Armageddon, all the chosen can get updated onto the same page.

I'm just explaining what the scripture means for those with the spiritual capacity to grasp and recognize the true interpretation.

LS