Posts by Larsinger58

11

Mystery of the week, still trying to figure this one out.......

by EndofMysteries in

after reading the 2nd half of the bible about 3 times in a 3 month period, i felt i needed to start from the beginning.

for the most part, been told most important things which apply to us and that is needed are the books of matthew - onward.

well i found out quickly from psalms onward how untrue that is.

Larsinger58

Here is an example of how obvious it is to Jews that there are two messiahs, from the link I provided earlier.

Moshiach Ben Yosef

Jewish tradition speaks of two redeemers, each one called Moshiach. Both are involved in ushering in the Messianic era. They are Moshiach ben Dovid and Moshiach ben Yosef. What is the difference between them?

The term Moshiach unqualified always refers to Moshiach ben David (Moshiach the descendant of David) of the tribe of Judah. He is the actual (final) redeemer who shall rule in the Messianic age. All that was said in our text relates to him.

Moshiach ben Yosef (Moshiach the descendant of Joseph) of the tribe of Ephraim (son of Joseph), is also referred to as Moshiach ben Ephrayim, Moshiach the descendant of Ephraim. [2] He will come first, before the final redeemer, and later will serve as his viceroy. [3]

Thus Jewish tradition understands even more specifically the messiah would come through the lineage of Ephraim! Thus we see in Revelation where the 12 tribes are mentioned with 12,000 from each tribe that Ephraim is not mentioned, but Joseph's other son, Manesseh is! Instead, Joseph himself is mentioned as a tribe. This just indicates the messiah would come through Ephraim and fulfill the prophecy about the messiah coming through Joseph. Joseph is substituted for the tribe of Ephraim.

Of course, both Ephraim and Manesseh were half Egyptian. Thus it is fulfilled a second time, "Out of EGYPT I called my son."

Now keep in mind the Jewish commentators who do recognize the 2 messiahs likely are not going to understand exactly how it works out so they speculate the details of fulfillment. But it is important that it is very recognizable in scripture and for the most part, all of Christendom including JWs totally ignore this reference because it doesn't fit their concept of Jesus Christ returning in the flesh and ruling for 1000 years on the earth as a human. So they avoid this.

So it is great you noticed this and bring it up! The Bible teaches the 2nd coming messiah is in the flesh and out of the tribe of Joseph. The actual fulfillment is unusual since Christ takes up the body of one of his followers to accomplish this, but still it is fulfilled.

LS

11

Mystery of the week, still trying to figure this one out.......

by EndofMysteries in

after reading the 2nd half of the bible about 3 times in a 3 month period, i felt i needed to start from the beginning.

for the most part, been told most important things which apply to us and that is needed are the books of matthew - onward.

well i found out quickly from psalms onward how untrue that is.

Larsinger58

HOW IS THE 2ND COMING MESSIAH BORN IN THE TRIBE OF JOSEPH?

A bit complicated but for the record.

As you know, Jesus said "some standing here would not die" until he arrived. He meant that literally. Some from the 1st century called the "living" would never die at all. That included John and Paul that we know for sure. But why? Why would Jesus keep some alive all that time?

Well, one reason is because 144,000 members of the Bride Class must be natural Jews, 12,000 from each tribe. These 144,000 make up the "root" of the tree which Isa 6:13 assigns the value of 1/10th. Thus 1/10th of the entire Bride class is 144K and the entire number, 90% gentiles, is 1,440,00. But the 12 tribes didn't exist as 12 tribes even in Jesus' day. While that is true, it still only takes one individual to become a nation just as the original 12 brothers were individuals. So in order to rebuild the 12 tribes, individuals who had lineage back to the original 12 tribes were selected to live down to our day and then marry into the modern population which in 200-300 years could produce over a million descendants, especially if the families were large, and that is precisely what Jehovah indicated, that he would "speed it up in its own time..."

ISA 60v22 " 22 The little one himself will become a thousand, and the small one a mighty nation. I myself, Jehovah, shall speed it up in its own time.”

My great grandmother had 17 childrens, my aunt had 18 children. So you can see if God was going to "speed it up" in its own time with these descendants have really large families, it wouldn't take long before maybe several million in each tribe were present during the 2nd coming.

How the second coming works -- At the first coming Christ is born as an infant so that he has no human father and is perfect. But that is only necessary once and he gives up that perfect body in sacrifice. In order to re-enter the flesh at the second coming, therefore, he simply takes up the body and identity of one of his chosen servants. One of the elect who has been tested for faithfulness until the death allows Christ to express himself physically through him. In the Bible this is the "prodigal son" and "Lazarus". This individual is a descendant of the new tribe of Joseph.

That's how it works. But even so, since it is the same person, Christ maintains the "legal right" to the throne of David.

LS

11

Mystery of the week, still trying to figure this one out.......

by EndofMysteries in

after reading the 2nd half of the bible about 3 times in a 3 month period, i felt i needed to start from the beginning.

for the most part, been told most important things which apply to us and that is needed are the books of matthew - onward.

well i found out quickly from psalms onward how untrue that is.

Larsinger58

And the ANSWER is-- Two advents of the messiah-king. It deals with the messiah in the flesh in the first and second coming. Simply put, Jesus comes through the tribe of Judah at the 1st coming and through the tribe of Joseph for his second coming. That's all this is.

But you need to research what is already noted in Jewish tradition who always recognized there were TWO redeemers, like at this site

http://www.moshiach.com/topics/in-depth/moshiach-ben-yossef.php

Google "moschiach ben yosef (or Joseph)" and "moschiach ben Judah (or David)" and you'll find much written about this based on Genesis 49 in Jewish exegetical writings.

But we can solve this ourselves by paying close attention to Genesis 49. It says the scepter would remain with Judah UNTIL Shiloh comes. Now if this were a reference to Jesus Christ at the 1st coming then the scepter would still be in Judah since Jesus was of the line of Judah. So "until Shiloh" means that there will be a change from Judah to another tribe. What other tribe that is is not mystery. It's the tribe of Joseph. So "Shiloh" is the second coming messiah out of the tribe of Joseph. This, therefore, proves that Jesus must return in the flesh again, and through the tribe of Joseph to be fulfilled. This contradicts current WTS teachings that Jesus will never return in the flesh but that his second coming is spiritual.

Of course, this belief identifies them specifically with the prophesied "antichrist" as 1 John clearly says...

2 Y OU gain the knowledge of the inspired expression from God by this: Every inspired expression that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh originates with God, 3 but every inspired expression that does not confess Jesus does not originate with God. Furthermore, this is the antichrist’s [inspired expression] which YOU have heard was coming, and now it is already in the world.

Fulfillment. Right now JWs believe JC arrived in 1914 and they say he did not arrive in the flesh, so they fulfill this prophecy.

LS

52

Jehovahs Witnesses are banned in Russia

by Quadraphoenix in

http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=1385.

this is very exciting news for all of us, especially for the ones that want to leave that are in russia.. .

quadraphoenix.

Larsinger58

This is great news for those looking forward to Armageddon coming soon.

LS

52

Jehovahs Witnesses are banned in Russia

by Quadraphoenix in

http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=1385.

this is very exciting news for all of us, especially for the ones that want to leave that are in russia.. .

quadraphoenix.

Larsinger58

Well! This could happen in the US and worldwide for ALL religions. This may be the beginning.

Let's face it, the WTS has way too many ties to the Illuminati, Freemasonry, etc if you listen to the conspiracy theorists. And we know they do not support local government. That could be construed as being extremist since if everybody in the country were witnesses there would be no government, right?

Remember, when we see the UN ban world religion and the Federal Reserve, that signals the death of Babylon the Great and the takeover of the UN as a world authority. It will then be "a time and a season" until the UN is destroyed at Armageddon. That is, the UN is given 15 months to rule before Armageddon.

I can't believe this! JWs are banned in Russia!! Their assets seized!

Amazing, but consistent with what will happen worldwide!

LS

40

I find it illogical for people to believe in "Religion"

by sinis in

i just don't understand.

i was raised a jw, believed the whole line of bullshit, hook, line, and sinker.

after leaving i still believed in the bible.

Larsinger58

Well, I can understand and truly, the Bible is a closed book for only the elect at some point.

But for me, since I'm really involved and one of the anointed, I have no doubt there is a god because I've seen and talked with him personally.

But that's ME. You still have reason to doubt. But I know for sure.

LS

28

The annointed/elect AND holy spirit

by EndofMysteries in

later i can post tons of scriptures to reference, but no point if nobody has run into this.

have you seen what appears to be 2 different groups of annointed?

perhaps one selected/predestined by jehovah and another not predestined by invited by jesus?

Larsinger58

Does anyone really care? I don't.

Hmmm, reminds me of the five foolish virgins who didn't care about the extra oil and the five wise virgins who cared deeply about the extra oil.

Which group got into the kingdom? One must exert themselves vigorously to get into the kingdom. The lazy and apathetic don't get there in time.

LS

28

The annointed/elect AND holy spirit

by EndofMysteries in

later i can post tons of scriptures to reference, but no point if nobody has run into this.

have you seen what appears to be 2 different groups of annointed?

perhaps one selected/predestined by jehovah and another not predestined by invited by jesus?

Larsinger58

I find no reason to think that parables (teaching tools for the present) have anything at all to do with prophecy (foretlling the future, describing future events, applying to "classes" of people...).

Yes, for more of the non-elect, they are made to look like parables with a moral meaning. But you can tell by the detailed context when it is prophetic. For instance, the prodigal son parable is very basic, about forgiveness of those who turn around. But what's with the faithful older brother? What does his murmuring mean? And what is symbolized by his being outside the banquet and the father coming out to him to reassure him that "what is mine is yours"? This suggests a prophetic fulfillment and that the older brother represents some future group in relation to the younger brother messiah group.

When it breaks down, it shows there is a public group and a private group that do not mix but who are both approved. The older brother is not cast off. He did his duty and was faithful. He just can't figure out why his more sinful younger brother got to be the messiah and not him. And maybe rightfully so.

So you can close your eyes to the meaning if you want and pretend there is nothing there. Or you can explore what it could mean, leaving the option that it really doesn't mean anything. If you do explore it, it is clear the prodigal son would be the messiah since the banquet is linked to the secret "kingdom of the heavens" in other prables, the wedding feast.

This also shows that some will reject the messiah and God won't hold it against them, because it is rather startling to choose the younger brother over the older one.

But anyway, since the elect who are part of the banquet are the ones who need this understanding, those outside won't particularly understand or benefit so it doesn't matter if they think this is just a parable about the moral of forgiveness, or at least content themselves with that presumption. Those who know better and understand the prophetic aspect understand it is specifically for them.

Remember, the five foolish virgins are the ones who don't look past the oil in their own lamps, but the five wise virgins look into these extra things, like chronology and prophetic parables and prophetic numeric patterns like the jubilee cycles, many things others like to look over and consider insignificant. But the extra oil made all the difference as far as getting into the kingdom on time.

LS

28

The annointed/elect AND holy spirit

by EndofMysteries in

later i can post tons of scriptures to reference, but no point if nobody has run into this.

have you seen what appears to be 2 different groups of annointed?

perhaps one selected/predestined by jehovah and another not predestined by invited by jesus?

Larsinger58

Also note that the only reason Abraham and the ancients were not "anointed" was because they died before Jesus' sacrifice. But all that is necessary for them to be anointed is to rise again in the flesh.

In other words, some of the holy ones died just before Jesus did. When he died, they were resurrected and came out of the memorial tombs. That means that they were alive at Pentecost and could get anointed, even though they had died before. So same with Abraham. As long as he comes back in the flesh, he can get anointed and then become of the elect heavenly class.

The 1st resurrection though is totally back into the flesh first since all will rule on the earth for 1000 years in the flesh. So when Noah and Abraham and other faithful ones come back in the flesh, they can get anointed at that time and then become of the elect. That's how they get into the kingdom. The WTS concept that some are going to heaven now is totally unscriptural. ALL get heavenly life at the exact same time, but not until after Judgment Day. By now they would have been in the flesh over well over 1000 years being resurrected back into the flesh before the 2nd coming in 1992.

So where are they now? 1 Cor says they are "sown" into a physical body, sown into dishonor, sown into weakness. All these mean an imperfect body that they are raised in. The caveat there is that these are not dead imperfect bodies but living! So the resurrection is into living persons just as Jesus reenters humanity through another human when he returns. So the resurrection has already taken place, prior to 1992 but it is invisible because the resurrected ones share the body of living anointed ones, one per body.

Point being, again, that this is the way the ancient ones become part of the anointed as well. So God does not deny Moses or Abraham or Daniel being part of the heavenly class after all. It's just that they get anointed later after their resurrection.

So really, it's quite wonderful. The heavenly hope is offered to many if they are worthy, including ancient prophets and the "other sheep" of JWs after 1991.

LS

28

The annointed/elect AND holy spirit

by EndofMysteries in

later i can post tons of scriptures to reference, but no point if nobody has run into this.

have you seen what appears to be 2 different groups of annointed?

perhaps one selected/predestined by jehovah and another not predestined by invited by jesus?

Larsinger58

And, do the anointed ever feel that they might lose their anointment after all?

There are two phases. The "anointing" after which you must prove faithful. The anointing is like the calling. Then you must be faithful until death or symbolic death. The second phase is the SEALING, wherein you are sealed into the kingdom. So to understand, the early "anointed" ones are still not sealed until Christ returns. The "other sheep" are not anointed at all until Christ returns when they are both anointed and then sealed at the same time. This process would be from the last to the first so likely took the full "last hour" from 1991-1998 though Christ did not arrive until 1992 and did not eat the first passover until 1993.

Ironically, after that, they cannot sin any more. That is, the law is removed from them and they are no longer subject to the law. So they can commit fornication or homosexuality or anything and Jehovah doesn't count it against them. So technically, Satan cannot tempt them to do anything. Otherwise, you do have this contest of Satan trying to get the elect to sin. They are still human. So God just removes for them the moral code and so it's not a sin for them to commit adultery or anything else. That's why they are also called "Jehovah Is Our Righteousness" because Jehovah decides what is a sin for them.

Think of it as being like an undercover drug agent, who goes out, uses drugs, sells and buys drugs as part of his cover to get a drug bust. When everybody is arrested, they are not convicted even though they did technically break the law. Thus the Justice System is their judge and decides these crimes were not crimes. So same thing. In order for Satan not to tempt the elect after they are sealed, they are no longer under law and they can no longer sin. They can "sin" but it is not held against them because they are no longer under law.

This is why in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus a "chasm" is said to be between the spiritual and the fleshly and one cannot cross over to the other because the rules are so different. An elect person who wants to claim he's of the elect and maybe try to help someone understand the Bible can't do it because they can't recommend themselves most of the time since they have to claim that committing fornication or adultery is permissible now. No one will accept that. So they have to keep their mouths shut. The rules for them don't apply to the non-elect.

But at the the same time, it answers that question we all ask about if someone already sealed can then become unfaithful. Well, I won't say 100% no, but the usual circumstance for Satan doesn't apply because what is he going to tempt them with? If they are single and have desires and maybe are tempted by a prostitute, Satan could take advantage of that, normally. But since they are free to have as many prostitutes as they want to now, it's not a sin and there's no point to it. So they remain sealed and in God's eyes, still chaste. This is way too out of the box for the average person so the elect remain a secret society but out of range for Satan's usual schemes to get them to sin.

Strange. But that's what is happening.

I'm of the elect and if I wanted to have sex with another man I'm free to do so. I'm old so I'm not that tempted but it wouldn't be a sin for me as far as Jehovah is concerned. Satan is out of the picture. It is as if he sees the potential under perfect conditions rather than these imperfect ones, so he ignores the details now. LS