Posts by JCanon

posted

50
Gentile Times reconsidered
by confused and lost in
1. watchtower
2. bible
i am half way through this book by carl o. jonsson and the more i read the more certain i become that the 607bce date for the destruction of jerusalem by babylon is nothing more than a fabrication designed to uphold 1914 and hence the "authority" of the watchtower leadership.it makes me sick to think of how they have duped millions of people with their phoney chronology.it makes sitting through studies that mention these dates irritating to say the least.especially when all the heads nod in unison at the mention of the "magic 607"
JCanon

Hi James Free:

COJ was an elder who wanted to show that 607 could not have been the date that Jerusalem was destroyed. Although you arrive at a different date than almost every other secular source accepts, it still means that you both agree on one thing - it was not 607 BCE. For most JW's that is all they need to know, since this destroys the WT end-date of 1914, followed by all authority being given to the GB in 1919. It's all in the past, and of no relevance today, whatever the date.
Yes, once the differences are set aside, COJ does become an important focus on Bible chronology and we actually agree on several things. He provides a lot of rare references that I, in turn, redate to my own chronology, but I never found some of this information in my research. So he definitely is an important contributor to general Bible chronology and where the WTS is inaccurate. BUT, while we are seeing that both I and COJ dismiss 607BCE, you must also realize that the WTS and COJ use the same date for the fall of Babylon in 539 BCE and for the return of the Jews in 537BCE, both dates I'm dismissing as erroneous. Your comment about "of no relevance today"; however, is short-sighted. Don't forget, the WISE VIRGINS are the ones who get into the kingdom whereas the foolish virgins arrive late. That's because the wise virgins brought along extra oil, that extra oil meaning understanding of chronology. Without the chronology, you cannot correctly identify the messiah since general Biblical knowledge would not provide enough light, and it is important to get into the kingdom before the door is closed, so timing is very important. To discount the importance of chronology is a grave mistake. It makes the difference of getting halfway there or all the way there. The foolish virgin class are the ones who say things like, "It's all in the past, and of no relevance today." The wise virgins know better. They know, if possible, they need to see where the chronology dates the second coming. But even with not being able to sort all this out, you still only have three choices: 607, 587 or 529 BCE, which gives you 1914, 1934 and 1992. Finally, you mentioned that this is a different date than "every other source accepts." I'll just say this. Certain Jews have always known what the original chronology was. They didn't lose sight of it and were involved in helping Xerxes fool the Greeks by claiming to be Artaxerxes. That's why the Jews suppressed Ezra/Nehemiah, which showed that Nehemiah after returning from Babylon with Zerubabbel, lived down into the reign of Darius II. Per revised chronology, he'd have to be over 143 years of age to do that if he were about 30 years of age when he returned, the age of a professional in his position generally. So plese note in COJ's book, he does mention specifically that the Jews claim there are too many kings during the Persian Period and they have their own reduced chronology. RABBINICAL DATES:

832 BCE for beginning of first temple.

426 BCE for end of the first temple.
422 BCE for beginning of 70 years of exile for last deportees

352 BCE for end of second temple, 6th year of Darius. These dates, though, are more ridiculous than even mine! For instance 352 BCE for the 6th of Darius is otherwise falls in the 7th of Artaxerxes II, with Alexander the Great already historically on the scene by this time (born 356 BCE). Do you really think the Jews believe the sixth of Darius wasn't until 352 BCE? Hardly. Point is, is this a face value date or a cryptic date? A cryptic date is suspicious because all the temple dates convert to the original chronology based upon relevant temple date intervals. YOU decide if this is a coincidence or not. Case in point 352 BCE. Per the Bible, if you date the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE then the temple is completed 21 years later in 434 BC, which is the 6th of Darius. That is an 82-year difference for 455 BCE vs 537 BCE. Tihs continues through to the 6th of Darius occuring in the revised chronology in 516 BCE, an 82-year difference. But note that 352 BCE, a completely ridiculous date for the 6th of Darius is exactly 82 years after 434 BCE. This suggests the rabbinical date is simply mocking the pagan revision of the timeline: 516 - 82 = 534; 534 - 82 = 352 Thus we potentially have either a coincidence or a confirmation of the original dating known to the Jews to be 534 BCE if they are making a cryptic reference here. This raises our curiosity to test the other dates to see if there is the same kind of relevance. Turns out every single date can be converted using a relevant interval related to the primary temple dates. Case in point the 4-year interval between 422 and 426 BCE, related to the destruction of first temple. The correct dating for this 4-year interval is 529 BCE for the fall of Jerusalem and 525 BCE to begin the 70-year desolation. 82 years does not convert these numbers. But if you add 82 years with 21 years, the length of time between 455 and 434 BCE, which gives you 103 years, then 426 and 422 convert to 529 and 525 BCE. 455-434 = 21 21 + 82 = 103 422 + 103 = 525 BCE 426 + 103 = 529 BCE Finally the date for the beginning of the first temple is dated to 832 BCE. The original dating is 906 BCE, a 74-year difference. The interval between the end of the first temple and the beginning of the second is precisely 74 years (529-455 = 74 years). MEANING? Meaning that we can't rule out that the Jews ever lost track of the original chronology but have chosen to suppress the truth. This is particularly apparent when the Book of Esther was revised so that Esther was no longer married to "Artaxerxes, the son of Xerxes" but to Ahasuerus, which is presumed to be Xerxes. The Book of Esther was not accepted into the canon until the Third Century AD. But the LXX version shows her married to Artaxerxes, clearly a contradiction to the inspired Ezra/Nehemiah. Therefore, while the Jews actively helped the Persian with their revisions done for political reasons, that is, reworking "Esdras" (Ezra/Nehemiah) with a version that places Nehemiah with Zerubbabel but skips the part where he is cupbearer to Artaxerxes, for some reason, years later long after this, we find the Jews still maintaining this as a secret. Therefore, one factor that has to be considered as to why the academic world still seems to largely support the current timeline, is that is a very old political and potentially religious cover-up. The Book of Esther, of course, is not inspired and not cross-quoted from by the NT Bible writers who quote from all the other OT books (except Ecclesiates and Song of Solomon, two more non-inspired works). This chronology involves the verification of the Christ arriving 483 years after Jerusalem begins to be rebuilt. Jews would have a natural conflict of interest to the corrected chronology since they don't believe in Christ, thus the false chronology serves them well. There may be other reasons why, down the road, the revised chronology was also preferred. One potential one is because you have to also revise the history of Socrates, Aristotle and Plato. Socrates and Aristotle were lovers; Aristotle was the protege-lover of Socrates. When the chronology was re-worked by Xenophon, Socrates who was associated with the Peloponnesian War was moved back in time 28 years. This made him die in 399 BCE some 15 years before Aristotle was born in 384 BCE. When the timeline is corrected, Socrates dies in 366 BCE when Aristotle would have been 18, the same age as Socrates lover-protege, "Phaedo" was. The fact we know that the Greek chronology was revised is born out by various things, one chief one being "The Delian Problem" where Plato is consulted to help top a plague that broke out in the first year of the PPW by solving a match problem to double the size of a cubed altar at Delos. Problem is, the redating set the war in 531 BCE which is 3 years before Plato was born in 424 BCE. Ooops! Therefore, the current chronology now in place expects us to believe and/or ignore that Plato could have been consulted about something before he was even born. Sorry. Not good enough for me. Maybe be okay with you though and the rest of the world. Instead, a better eclipse for that war was found when Plato would have been 25 years of age and it corrects the Greek part of the timeline. But having it come out that Aristotle, Plato and Xenophon were paid revisionists by the Persian government probably isn't the story the academic world who considers Plao and Socrates and Aristotle as philosophy icons would want to have come out. Why do you think Xenophon was so into Persian history? How do you think I found out that Socrates and Aristotle were lovers? I wouldn't have thought that by general adjustment in the timeline. It's because people with secrets can't help revealing those secrets at some level, even cryptically, like the Jewish having fun with the Christian revisionists by coming out with a ridiculous timeline. Therefore, lots of people already know about the revisionisms. It's just not politically correct to change it for some reason. It's too disruptive to more than what relates to Jerusalem and the Jews, but to the Classical Greek Period as well. I came across a cryptic source where the text that exists dated to year 27 of a king "Artaxerxes, also known as Arses [Xerxes]" was mentioned. This was found by someone allowed to explore ancient texts in the British Museum. He also published the text of the SK400. But it wsa cryptically done. The author though related that apparently when he confronted the Museum curators about his discoveries, they rudely and promptly kicked him out of the museum. So who knows what texts he found in there that indicated that Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king. But it didn't matter. Even if he published his suspicions, an institution like the British Museum could buy up all his books after his death and he would go into obscurity. So he did like many ancient historians did. Wrote a politically correct book of interest, like Herodotus did, with lots of practical and interesting information, and then hide secret information within the text that hints at what really happened. Like the Thales eclipse, dated to the reign of Nabonidus in the context of the time when Alyattes and Cyaxares were ruling. Nabonidus was not a contemporary of Alyattes and Cyaxares. But the substitute eclipse in 585 BCE matches the time of Layattes and Cyaxares and Nebuchadnezzar, but the original eclipse in the original 2nd year of Darius in 478 BCE matches the rule of Nabonidus. So Herodotus is playing both sides of the fence. So any hint that the majority of scholars suggess credibility has to be qualified, especially if the scholars are Jewish. That is, it is expected that a Jewish scholar would know more specifically about the rabbinical timeline and claims by them that the Persian Period was much shorter. Not as short as they officially claim, though, their dates are cryptic references to the true chronology, which they traditionally have kept to themselves and not openly discussed and acknowledged with Christians. Everybody is friendly now, but before that, obviously, Jews and Christians didn't get along, and the HOLOCAUST is just barely 65 years ago. Wonderfully, the VAT4956, likely created by Jewish astronomers in Babylon to preserve a reference to the rule of Nebuchadnezzar confirms the original dating for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar to 511 BCE. So the current dating is a JOKE now about academically out of date. It's just that simple. The current chronology remains in place because of religious and political polemics, not because of available research. JCanon
44
Antichrist
by Aleman in
1. watchtower
2. bible
who is the antichrist?

the antichrist is a liar and a deceiver, bent on destroying a persons relationship with christ and with god.

john 2:22 - who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that jesus is the christ?
JCanon

BTW - idiot - Jw's do not confess Jesus in the flesh! They believe he will come in spirit. Perhaps you missed that little point of significant doctrine!
That's right. We identify the antichrist in the last days because they would not believe Christ returns in the flesh. The IBS way back when, looking at 1874 thought that Christ would return in the flesh, but when he didn't show up, the antichrist (Russell) started teaching that Christ's second coming was invisible. "His invisible presence" is a key phrase in JW doctrine.
The Bible thus, while teaching Christ's presence would be very secretive (he comes as a thief, without much observableness) does establish that he will arrive back in the flesh at the second coming. In fact, not as a perfect man again, but as an imperfect man with sins like everybody else.
KEY TEXTS: Lev. 23:17, showing the second wave offering (as in second coming) is with leaven, meaning with sin. The first wave offering, also fulfilled by Christ becomes part of the "unfermented cakes" celebration, which everybody knows the unfermented cakes represent the "sinless" physical state of the Christ. Thus the first wave offering representing the first coming is without leaven (without sin), the second wave offering representing the second coming is with leaven (imperfect man, with sin).
ZECH 3: Christ returns the second time as a king-priest, thus the messiah depicted here by high-priest Joshua who presents with befouled garments at the time of his becoming king is about the second coming. Not the first. It doesn't make sense the messiah who is sinless is depicted with sins to be forgiven and needs new robes. That is, it doesn't make sense for a sinless messiah, but at he second coming, since Christ is in an imperfect body, he is depicted as sinful, in fact, a man of recent sins with those stains fresh on his garments.
HOW exactly does this happen? Simple. Whatever elemental spiritual factor is involved with Christ becoming human is tranferred to some "individual" human. That is, something from heaven is combined with some specific human. At the first coming, because the combination was with an unfertilized ovum (cell in Mary's womb) what was born was perfect. That's because the "life" comes from the father. This child did not inherit Adamic sin. Even so, Christ was 100% human and 100% the child of Mary. At the second coming, again the spiritual element of Christ is tranferred into and combined with another human person. Only this time, not needing to be a perfect sacrifice again, he simply "possesses" (maybe in more ways than one) the body and identity of one of his secret followers.
Thus in Revelation the woman who flees to the "wilderness" away from Satan, which means she is a secret society organization of Christ's followers, not a public one, gives birth to the messiah, represented as a child who is caught up to God before the dragon, Satan, can devour it. Satan at this same time engages in a battle in heaven with Michael, the Archangel, whom all JWs know is Jesus Christ's heavenly angelic identity. So you see, there are TWO MESSIAHS at this moment in time. One in heaven, an angel, one born from this woman who is human. The child being caught up to God though, represents that the two messiahs are combined at this time. This is the time of the second coming. When Christ becomes human again and returns to the earth, Satan is kicked out of heaven.
So everybody who is thinking Christ will have an invisible presence rather than merely a secret one, is looking for the wrong thing. And others who are expecting a visible return, but maybe by a 50-foot Christ appearing in the sky calling them up to heaven are also looking for the wrong thing. Those who are expecting Christ to be an ordinary man with a sinful past, are the ones who are looking for the true messiah.
THE NATURE OF THE MESSIAH'S SINS AT SECOND COMING REVEALED: The change out of the befouled garments and the new robes given to Joshua who represents the sinful second-coming messiah, parallels the parable of the prodigal son, who upon returning from having left God, represented by the father, also gets new robes. How obvious can you get. This is high-priest Joshua returning to God's house, at which point the father now raises him above his faithful older brother and makes him the messiah, giving him a new robe, "the best one," which is equivalent to the "robes of state" mentioned at Zech 3. That means, he becomes the chief heir, the messiah. Several other parables relating to the second coming also involve the father giving the son a banquet. But we learn from this parable that the prodigal son's sins involve sexual misconduct, as it indicates he was in the "company of harlots," that is sexually loose persons not excluding prostitutes. So what does this mean? He's a Don Juan? Or is he a pimp that he's always in the company with harlots? OR, is he in the company with harlots because he himself is a harlot and prostitute? The latter becomes apparent when we link the "Rich Man and Lazarus" parable with the second coming as well, where Lazarus likewise, full of sores representing his state of spiritual sickness and sin, is outside the house of the Rich Man, representing the slave in charge of Jehovah's organization. But his sores are licked by dogs, linking dogs with the nature of his sins. In the Bible, a "dog" refers to men who have sex with male prostitutes. In ancient times male prostitues would castrate themselves, dress as women, and have anal sex with their clients, "doggy style", from behind, thus these men were euphemistically nicknamed as "dogs." But this also, Biblically speaking, relates to the nature of the messiah's weakness and sins, relating to being a male prostitute. But not the kind of male prostitute that seduces other gay men, but the kind that dresses as a woman and has sex with otherwise heterosexual males who have sex with transvestites or transgendered males. Thus we learn from the Bible's suggestion that the messiah might have been a passive homosexual, possibly a male prostitute who dressed up as a woman in order to have sex with bi-sexual men.
So if someone reading the Bible truly had insight and was truly looking for the messiah, these details alone would help them eliminate a whole lot of people. I believe some reports claim that 75% of all men, gay or straight are cross-dressing prostitutes at one time in their lives. (Ooops! sorry. That percentage might be a little exaggerated actually...) But basically, in search for the messiah, among other things, one would not be surprised by a background of male prostitution if we are going by the context provided by the Bible, combining the prodigal son parable where he is in the company of harlots, and the Lazarus who caters to "dogs", men who have sex with male prostitutes.
This is BAD. That's why high-priest Joshua is seen coming before God with befouled garments, those stains being not simply filth but the term conveying covered with excrement. Now the WTS and others get past the obvious by saying that since Christ bears the sins of the Jews and the whole world that the soiled garments he is wearing must represent their sins, not his personal sins. That's because it is such a contradiction to who the first-coming messiah was. A perfect and righteous man. How is it that he has sins to be forgiven? But the context clearly shows these are his personal sins because when he gets the new robes it represents him being forgiven, and they are the "robes of state," the robes of the messiah.
So, even those persons who might believe Christ will appear in the flesh, probably expecting some really righteous person being chosen, maybe some monk in an isolated monastery who spent all his life research ancient Biblical texts, or some anointed Jehovah's witness maybe of the anointed who was a zealous pioneer all his life, are looking for the wrong person. You see, the messiah doesn't even show up to become the messiah until the last minute. He's outside God's organization for the most part, out sinning and being a prostitute for most of the time until he finally returns close to the time of the second coming. Thus those on the watch, would be expecting someone who was an inactive or disfellowshipped JW to be returning near the time of the second coming; someone who had a background of homosexuality and male prostitution. That is, if you were really sincere about finding and identifying the true messiah, those would be some of the primary things to look for.
Of course, only those with insight, those who are depicted as "eagles" would actually be the first to see and acknowledge the Christ when he returned. They would have figured out a lot of other things from the Bible as well, such as WHERE to expect the messiah to appear. Apparently, to narrow things down, he would appear in the "north" and in the vicinity of the modern-day "throne of Satan," which is Arcadia, California. There's lots more, but I've gotten complaints about my long posts so I'll leave it to those who want to find and identify the messiah to search the scriptures and find out more about who he would be, where, and when he would arrive. But at least you have a few of the primary clues. But BIBLE CHRONOLOGY gives the specific year the messiah would arrive, in fact, within 4- months, so that should help to identify him, and since he is associated with the Rich Man's house, meaning JWs, he would reappear among Jehovah's witnesses, presumably in one of the congregations attending the Kingdom Hall where the Aracadia congregation meets. (Arcadia is near Santa Anita-Pasadena, in the San Gabriel Valley Area of Greater Los Angeles)
Hope you folks find him! When exactly is he supposed to arrive by the way? Does anybody know how to figure out the Bible chronology?
JCanon
72
Doctorinal Question: JWs teach Jesus is Micheal the Arc Angel.....
by Lady Liberty in
1. watchtower
2. bible
dear friends,.

i have a question for you... the jws teach jesus is micheal the arc angel right?

so here is my question...according to the jws..is jesus a god or a angel??
JCanon

Not only is Jesus, Michael the Archangel, it is he that is pictured as one of the two "covering cherubs" atop the Ark of the Covenant. The angels are considered to be married. Husband and wife. The other angel, you guessed it, is none other than Satan. So Jesus and Satan were once husband and wife. Christ got a divorce from his wife in Eden and his second wife will come from among mankind since Christ is so in love with men (but who can blame him, men can be quite irresistible).
There is only one only-begotten angel, and that is Christ. Christ is unique whether or not the title of "archangel" is thrown around to apply to other angels. Christ is unique, like God. They are the "alpha and omega" of their kinds.
JCanon
50
Gentile Times reconsidered
by confused and lost in
1. watchtower
2. bible
i am half way through this book by carl o. jonsson and the more i read the more certain i become that the 607bce date for the destruction of jerusalem by babylon is nothing more than a fabrication designed to uphold 1914 and hence the "authority" of the watchtower leadership.it makes me sick to think of how they have duped millions of people with their phoney chronology.it makes sitting through studies that mention these dates irritating to say the least.especially when all the heads nod in unison at the mention of the "magic 607"
JCanon

JCanon, can I ask a question or two, since I have developed an aversion to reading your posts due to the small fonts used and your very long-winded arguments. Sadly, I no longer even manage the first sentence of each of your posts without feeling the need to move on. Although they may well be scholarly and are evidently, at eye skimming speed, seemingly well researched, the presentation is very disconcerting. So, please, if possible, give me the very short version - When do you claim Jerusalem was destroyed? I enjoyed reading Gentile Times Reconsidered. Can you bullet-point what was wrong with it? Thanks in advance.
Sure. But just in passing, "I was too busy to read the long posts" is will not cause much pause on Judgment Day... What's important to us, we prioritize. The short version of the chronology is simply the dating of the 70 weeks prophecy as fulfilled by Cyrus. Basically, it's Martin Anstey's chronology, where he assigns the 70 weeks as fulfilled by Cyrus and thus suspects, based upon the Bible's chronology that there are 82 years of fake Persian history involved. You can see his works and those who follow this doctrine online for "The Romance of Bible Chronology"
29. Jaddua, contemporary with Darius, the last Persian King, who was slain by Alexander the Great B.C. 330.

These dates given above are the received Ptolemaic dates. All except the last (B.C. 330) are probably about 82 years higher than the truth. From: http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1913_anstey_romance.html
That's the shortest root. Everybody begins the 70 weeks in 455 BCE, but apply different events. The WTS applies the 20th of Artaxerxes to that year, related to the rebuilding of the walls, which took only 52 days and took place long after the temple was completed. The prophecy was about when the word went forth to rebuild Jerusalem, given at a time when Jerusalem was in total ruins. The only reason Cyrus is bypassed for fulfilling this, is because the chronology for this Period was revised by 82 years. But some, like Martin Anstey, seeing the conflict presumed the secular records were revised and the Bible was true. That's your bullet. Choosing to date the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE or the 20th of Artaxerxes in 455 BCE. My research confirms the former is correct and brings forth evidence supporting the timeline where the 1st of Cyrus falls in 455 BCE. This is a timeline accepted by a lot of preterists by the way. That's your bullet before we even get to COJ. COJ mentions this interpretation quite faithfully, but has decided that the secular evidence disallows for this interpretation and then he goes forward with his arguments of evidence from secular records including astronomical texts that support the current chronology. But if the records were revised, it doesn't really matter. All COJ thus confirms is how many records were revised. Here is a quote from page "192" of "Gentile Times Reconsidered" that shows how obvious it is for a first-choice fulfillment of the 70 weeks prophecy by Cyrus, one of my favorite quotes from COJ's book:
"If we "just stick to the Bible," it seems to point to the Persian king Cyrus... Thus it would seem clear that according to the Bible itself the "word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" was issued by Cyrus... If this period ended at the baptism of christ, usually dated somewhere in the period 26-29 C.E., Cyrus' first year as king of Babylon would have to be dated in the period 458-455 B.C.E. instead of 538, the historically acknowledged date... The ideas was popularized in this century by Martin Anstey in his work The Romance of Bible Chronology, London 1913."
So that's really what the debate is all about. Going with the Bible and dating the 1st of Cyrus in 455 BCE or going with secular records which date his 1st year in 538-537 BCE. When was Jerusalem destroyed? If you go with 455 BCE for the 1st of Cyrus, then it gets destroyed in 529 BCE. This introduces a 70-year period of desolation while the people were off the land and in servitude to Babylon, which begins with the last deportation (Jer. 52:30). This is the traditional Jewish interpretation of the "70 years" of desolation as noted by Josephus in Antiquities 11.1.1 Thus the last deportation is dated to 525 BCE, year 23, and the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE, year 19. COJ's book presents his side of the story and all the evidence in place to support the 538 BCE dating, and I present counter arguments supporting the 455 BCE dating. SOME CHALLENGES TO COJ'S ARGUMENT: 1. He claims the "70 years" of servitude represents the nations serving Nebuchadnezzar, but in order to do that, he has to round off the 70 years to 67 years. That is from 605 to 538 is 67 years. Sorry, not acceptable. 2. He quotes from Josephus regarding a 13-year siege of Tyre which he sets from years 19-32 of Nebuchadnezzar (Page 254). However, Josephus clearly indicates the 13-year siege begins in year 7. This is a total misrepresentation of the reference so, COJ is dismissed as being fraudulent and manipulative to get a point across. He loses total credibility at this point. 3. The VAT4956 is dismissible as rebuttal evidence to the Bible's dating because it comes along 200 years after the fact. Any "copy" of a document substantially later than the fact is automatically considered a fradulent and revised document until proven otherwise. 4. But even though the VAT4956 was created during the Seleucid Period, two "errors" in the text match to the precise lunar cycle matched to 511 BCE. This information is new and has come out since his first publication and remains unmentioned even in his recent work. So the book does not address the potential for "double dating" to 511 BCE. The double-dating means that the VAT4956 can be used just as effectively to date the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar to 511 BCE as to 568 BCE and proves the document is fraudulent. COJ calls it the "most important" document for dating the NB Period. So again, COJ's book does not discuss this issue and he refuses to address the issue in debates. Smart man. 511 BCE for year 37, of course, in turn supports the Bible's 529 BCE fall of Jerusalem. Some coincidence? Hardly. The VAT4956 was a tool to secretly preserve the revised chronology. As such it dismisses effectively all other astronomical texts presented by COJ that aligns to the new chronology. That is, it confirms which texts were revised during the Seleucid Period along with the VAT4956. Until this is resolved, none of the astronomical text information he presents is relevant. 5. Zech. 1 and 7 mentions 70 years that expire in 2nd and 4th years of "Darius", respectively. 70 years after the "denunciation" (destruction) of Jerusalem and 70 years after the mourning for Gedaliah in the 7th month. COJ applies this to Darius I. I apply it to "Darius the Mede." That's because it is clear the Jews are still in exile in the 2nd and 4th years of "Darius" since they are wondering "when will God show mercy to the cities", meaning when will they be rebuilt. Another non-negotiable issue. But this is another issue COJ does not address. That is, Josephus at Ant. 11.1.1 claims that the 70 years began "when the people went off their land", meaning the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar, and ends the 1st of Cyrus. If so, then the Jews indeed would have still been in exile in 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem in year 2 of Darius. So Zechariah 1 actually proves the Jews were still in exile 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem. The Jews would not return until the 1st of Cyrus, 74 years after the fall of Jerusalem, which means that "Darius the Mede" ruled for a full six years before Cyrus came to the throne. So at this point, the book becomes untenable and it has to be shelved as a Biblical chronology disaster. There are other detail issues, but at this point there is no need to consider those other issues. SUMMARY: Everything hinges on whether you date 455 BCE to the 1st of Cyrus or the 20th of Artaxerxes. I choose the 1st of Cyrus and follow Martin Anstey. At this point, the Bible's history is used to contradict any other evidence not supporting this dating, such contradictory evidence being presumed as fraudulent or inaccurate. The 455 BCE dating aligns the fall of Jerusalem 74 years earlier to 529 BCE. COJ thus has to prove that the Bible does not indicate that Cyrus fulfills the 70 weeks prophecy, which he doesn't, and in fact, comes right out and says this seems to be the direct Biblical reference. So no contest. COJ uses the VAT4956 as the "most important" document to date the NB Period per secular records, but does not address the double-dating "errors" to 511 BCE, which when applied to the presumed original chronology, would also date the fall of Jerusalem to 529 BCE. So now you can use the Bible OR the VAT4956 to date the fall of Jerusalem to 529 BCE. So we're so done here! COJ can't deal with these issues, so he avoids publically being challenged on this. Therefore, he's quite dismissible as a credible reference for this period. CHANGING THE FONT: Sorry about the font size, but the program defaults to the smaller type. I had presumed that individual computers adjust the font. If the font is ever too small, there are several ways to elarge it using the font control. One way is to simple select the entire text. Copy it (CTL-C) and then paste it (CTL-V) into a blank "reply" page. You can then change to a larger, readable font of your choice for any blocked text. My points are long because I include all the details usually, but I used to include a SUMMARY for whatever I wrote which I will do for my posts now. That way those with not so much time won't miss out. Cheers, JCanon
17
Generation problem is a self-inflicted wound
by Doug Mason in
1. watchtower
2. bible
there is no need to go to any university of higher education to solve the wtss problem with generation of matthew 24:34. it only needs a primary school certificate in plain reading.

in each of the nine times that the word generation appears in matthew, jesus is talking about the jewish people of his time.

read: matt 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; and 24:34. .
JCanon

They can never have the correct understanding because they think Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE.
If you agree that it didn't, then how do you equate 2,520 days and 1914?
There things are applied to 1914 by the witnesses; only one is applicable. 1) Last generation, 1914-1994 2) Second Coming 3) End of the gentile times. #1 is correct. The "last generation" begins with a world war. So 1914 works for beginning the last generation of 1914-1994. #2 is incorrect. Jerusalem fell in 529 BC, meaning the second coming occurs in 1992. This is cross-referenced by the 1335-days prophecy where the messiah arrives 45 years after the restoration of the Jews back to their homeland. 1947 thus ends the "1290 days" and represents the prophesied "end of the gentile times." 45 plus 1947 is 1992. If you count 490-year periods from 36 CE, which is the end of the 70th week of the first coming, then another 70th week occurs from 1989-1996. That is 4 x 490 = 1960. Add to 36 CE = 1996. The second coming fulfills the 70th week also, so the messiah arrives during the week of 1989-1996. "Ends gift and sacrifice" occurs twice; the animal sacrifices when Christ dies the first time at midweek in 33. The second time Christ arrives he "ends gift and sacrifice" when he eats the last Memorial, that was held annually in memorial of him until he returns. Thus Christ cannot arrive more than a year prior to April 6, 1993, meaning between passover of 1992 and passover of 1993 (April 6). See? Same year for the second coming confirmed x 3. So again, the Second Coming date is not 1914 but 1992. The 2520 years is applied to 529 BCE, not 607 BCE. Biblically speaking, the 70 weeks begins "when the word goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem." The witnesses apply 455 BCE to the 20th of Artaxerxes when Nehemiah directed the rebuilding of the walls. But this was just repair work of the walls already rebuilt, plus there were other buildings built by tihs time including the temple. This work only took 52 days. So how is it this fulfills the word going forth to rebuild Jerusalem in relation to it having been totally destroyed at the time of the prophecy? Indeed, the correct interpretation is when it first began to be rebuilt and that was in the 1st of Cyrus. So we move 455 BCE to the 1st of Cyrus. That suggests 82 years of fake Persian history was added (455 vs 537 BCE), but we've located exactly where those fake 82 years are, so no problem (i.e. Kambyses ruled 7 vs 8 years (-1), Darius I ruled 6 years (per Bible Ezra 6:14,15 so no choice, 6 vs 36 (-30); Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king (-21), and the extended 47-year rule of Artaxerxes II is also reduced by 30 (-30). -1, -30, -21, -30 equal 82 years. No problem). If the 1st of Cyrus occurs in 455 BCE, then the 70 years of desolation/servitude of last deportees has to be dated to 525 BCE, which is year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar II. In that case, year 19 falls in 529 BCE. So 529 BCE is the Biblically accurate date. But we can now confirm that with either the SK400 or VAT4956 astrotexts which hide the original chronology with the other dates in a diary. Quite clever. "Hide in plain sight." There are five copies of the VAT4956 or fragments that have been found. It is clear they wanted this text to survive. It holds the key to the original chronology. The VAT4956 likewise may have been copied several times to preserve this secret. But now that we have BOTH texts confirming the same rule for Nebuchadnezzar (SK400 confirms year 7 in 541 BCE, VAT4956 confirms year 37 in 511 BCE), there's no issue about correcting the NB timeline and confirming the Persians revised the timeline when they tried to claim Xerxes was Artaxerxes. The archaeological data supports this from Persepolis, Behistun and Naqshi-Rustam. So there's no way around this at this point. You either close your eyes or accept reality. #3. As noted above, the true "end of the gentile times" is not in 1914. How could the "gentile times" end in 1914? The Jews still did not control Palestine? They were still officially in exile. Still awaiting the "great tribulation" which would exterminate two-thirds their numbers in Europe (Zech 13:8). This was the "dashing of the holy ones to pieces" associated with the 1290 days (Daniel 12) which when it was over, the Jews would see the messiah 45 years later. 1947 is when the "trampling of Jerusalem" ended when the Jews were given their land back on November 30, 1947. SUMMARY: 1914 is good for "last generation", 1914-1994 1914 is incorrect for second coming, which occurs in 1992. 1914 is incorrect for "end of the gentile times" which occurs in 1947, 45 years prior to the second coming, fulfilling the 1290 and 1335 days prophecy. Of course, the sign of the son of man began appearing when the second coming messiah was born, who would be tested for 40 years before the 70th week (1989-1996) thus 1949-1989. There would be "darkness of the sun and moon and stars" that would occurr immediately after the tribulation of those days, That is after the Holocaust and the end of the gentile times in 1947, there would be spiritual darkness in God's own house regarding chronology and when the messiah would arrive. This represents the "nodding" of the 10 virgins and their lamps burning low in regard to he correct dating of the messiah. This was necessary for the events connected with the messiah to occur. If his idenity was known in advance, it would conflict with the 40-year testing as even the messiah did not know who he was. The 70th week began in the fall of 1989 and the messiah was anointed at midweek late in 1992. A photograph of the sign was made in 1998, but the Revelation book proves it had been seen earlier than 1998 by the anointed as elements of the sign are depicted in their subliminal art. So this is REAL.
http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/clouddove.jpg (Photo of 1998 sign)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdNYXeJw_2Q (Youtube images)
People can't believe this because they weren't in on it, but the Bible says that Christ would "come as a thief" for the majority of people not paying attention, and you can see how many people think they are so smart by ignoring chronology; so, of course, they are shocked when they find out he has already been here since 1992. So EVERYTHING is occurring just as the Bible has said, right down to the very year.
I, of course, share this information so that when the "great tribulation" starts and everybody sees the "Illuminati" (BTG) along with Christendom and the False-Prophet WTS being destroyed and their funds confiscated they will have no excuse and will know that Armageddon has begun. Those not already inside the kingdom arrangement will then want to get in, but it will be too late. As the Bible points out, many will have heard these details from Christ himself, who "taught in [their] broadways". So they know the details, just didn't bother taking it seriously until it was too late. When the second "great tribulation" begins, all the above will be confirmed all the moreso.
In the meantime, the JIOR, those associated with Christ, now have the advanced understanding of the Bible and the corrected ancient timeline. They are simply waiting for the last holy one to be sealed before all hell breaks loose at the time of the great tribulation. (Revelation says the "four winds" are held back until the sealing is completed). It's been c. 15 years since the second coming in 1992. The number of the anointed must be close to being filled by now. After Armageddon, the survivors are going to have a big celebration and get anything they want out of the stores for free! I can't wait!
"And they took no note until the flood came and swept them away" must again occur. People who hear the truth and reject it, until it's too late.
JCanon
17
Generation problem is a self-inflicted wound
by Doug Mason in
1. watchtower
2. bible
there is no need to go to any university of higher education to solve the wtss problem with generation of matthew 24:34. it only needs a primary school certificate in plain reading.

in each of the nine times that the word generation appears in matthew, jesus is talking about the jewish people of his time.

read: matt 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; and 24:34. .
JCanon

Hi Scholar:
Apparently, all will be revealed to the faithful and the unfaithful as all such are vitally intererested in the spiritual food of the FDS in the next scholarly journal of the Watchtower.
The GB was "disfellowshipped" as the evil slave and the "man of lawlessness" on November 10, 1992, then cast into spiritual darkness. Don't look for any light coming from this organization before it is destroyed along with Babylon the Great. The Bible ends the "great tribulation" before the second coming occurs: "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days..." So they are clueless. That doesn't fit Armgeddon that the "sign of the son of man" needs to appear AFTER Armageddon is over, does it?
They can never have the correct understanding because they think Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE. It didn't. They made the mistake of relying on secular history for the 539 BCE date for the fall of Babylon, but now that is disproven secularly by the VAT4956. There is no way they can defend it. Xerxes and Artaxerxes were the same king and the Bible limits the rule of Darius I to just six years. They ignore the Bible here. So as long as they are ignoring what is in the Bible, they will continue to have "last generation" blues.
They don't have the truth....
JCanon
17
Generation problem is a self-inflicted wound
by Doug Mason in
1. watchtower
2. bible
there is no need to go to any university of higher education to solve the wtss problem with generation of matthew 24:34. it only needs a primary school certificate in plain reading.

in each of the nine times that the word generation appears in matthew, jesus is talking about the jewish people of his time.

read: matt 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; and 24:34. .
JCanon

Precisely my main problem with JW doctrine. For scriptures that clearly only have one fulfillment, the Watchtower invents the concept of dual fulfillment, a confusing doctrine that parallels random prophecies in the Bible to our day. This kind of chronocentrism leads generation after generation of witnesses to believe that the end is going to happen within the next couple days/years/months because their time is "special." Any truly critical analysis of JW teachings will reveal that there is absolutely no basis for the idea of dual fulfillment. There is no basis for teaching that Jesus was talking about anything other than the destruction of the temple with his "great tribulation" speech. The fact that the organization goes to such great lengths with their "kangaroo-hopping" proves that they are victims of their own wishful thinking, their dogma no more credible than seeing shapes in clouds.
Nice speech and all, but there is NO CHOICE here. Once you read "a day for a year" then it opens up that potential for every single prophecy expressed in terms of days. And it definitely works out, time after time. Are all of these coincidences? For instance, the JUBILEE WEEK. You know that 490 years is set from 455 to 36 CE, right? Christ arrives at the 70th week, from 29-36 CE? Well 490 years is a period of 10 jubilees. Each jubilee period is 49 years each. The jubilee is the first year of every 49. It celebrates the 50th year of the previous 49-year period. The 455 BCE to 36 CE 70-week period, though, is just one "day" in a week of 70 weeks. It's the 3rd day, from the time the Jews were in Egypt. That is, 2 x 490 is 980 years. Add 980 years to 455 BCE and you get 1435 BCE. That is when the "week" began. This is when Moses was 30 years old. But that gives us three days. If we add 4 more days to make a week of 7 days, that is, a period of 3430 years, guess when that week ends? It ends in 1996! That is, 4 x 490 is 1960 + 36 = 1996. But guess what. If each day is 10 jubilees and there are 7 days, then there is a total of 70 jubilee periods of 49 years each. The 70th jubilee would thus be a very special jubilee. The theme of the jubilee is restoration of land and return from bondage. If 1996 ends this entire week then it also ends the 70th jubilee which would begin 49 years earlier. Did anything happen of special signficance for the Jews 49 years earlier than 1996? 1996 minus 49 is 1947.
http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/jcovwk1996G.GIF
So pretend there are no secret numbers in the Bible all you wish. Those of us who are into the chronology know there are far too many fulfilled patterns and events not to know the calculations are not correct.
I mean, doesn't it bother you that 1947 is such a pivotal date? The date for the restoration of Israel to Palestine and thus the end of the 1290 days, the end of the "gentile times"? In that case the messiah arrives to fulfill the 1335 days, 45 years later in 1992. But 1992 also has to be 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem. Thus 1992 requires coordination with the Bible's timeline so that Jerusalem falls specifically in 529 BCE.
The 70 weeks prophecy that begins in 455 BCE begins with the "word going forth to rebuild Jerusalem." When that is correctly dated to the 1st of Cyrus, then the 70 years of desolation and servitude beginning with the last deportation occur in 525 BCE. (455 + 70 = 525 BCE). That means the fall of Jerusalem, per the Bible, 4 years earlier occurs in 529 BCE. Hmmmmm.... Now where have we seen that number before?
Plus, you know how Christ arrives during the 70th week for the first coming? Well the 70th week of the last 490-years from 1506-1996 is from 1989-1996. 1992 falls in the middle of this week. Thus if Christ did arrive in 1992, he would fullfill arriving during the 70th week again at the second coming? And why not?
The Bible's numbers and chronology were not put in there to ignore. Unless, like the foolish virgins, you don't think it's necessary to look into every aspect of the Bible. When you make that mistake through, you won't have enough light to find the messiah when he arrives. Those who are into chronology and numerical patterns of fulfillment are reassured about the dating for the messiah and when he is to arrive, thus they get into the kingdom.
Now it's one thing that some shy away from this, because they are just not mathematically inclined. That's understandable. They want it to be easier. That's one thing. But is someone works out all the chronology for you and gives you all the fulfillments that check out with all the cross-matched prophecies and then you decide you are not interested. That's another thing. You can't use "I'm not good with numbers" excuse at that point. You're held liable. Finally, if you search the web, you'll see many other individuals and churchs are into chronology and are coming up with some of the same basic numbers. Here's a quote from one:
If 1917 was the termination of 1260 years, then the 1290 years would have been 30 years later -- the year 1947-48! That is the year when the United Nations voted to establish the state of Israel in the Middle East, and Israel fought off Arab invasion and became a nation! This would mean that the 1335 years would be an additional 45 years later -- or 1992-93! That was the year of the beginning of the Oslo Peace Accords, with their signing at the White House by Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat
From: http://www.triumphpro.com/1260,1290,1335.htm 1947 is clearly a date many recognize as pivotal to Bible prophecy. JCanon
50
Gentile Times reconsidered
by confused and lost in
1. watchtower
2. bible
i am half way through this book by carl o. jonsson and the more i read the more certain i become that the 607bce date for the destruction of jerusalem by babylon is nothing more than a fabrication designed to uphold 1914 and hence the "authority" of the watchtower leadership.it makes me sick to think of how they have duped millions of people with their phoney chronology.it makes sitting through studies that mention these dates irritating to say the least.especially when all the heads nod in unison at the mention of the "magic 607"
JCanon

Hi Doug,
I don't seem to be getting through to you. Actually, you sort of remind me of Farkel. A nice little boy sitting in the middle of a big empty room with high ceilings. It's hard to keep you penned down to any issue, so I have to do a line-by-line so that you don't read things into what I say with an overactive imagination (or lack thereof?)
G’day JC,

Contrary to your assertion, I believe that it is fundamental to the WTS (and hence Scholar) that “desolation” be understood in terms of “depopulation” and “total destruction”. How else do they get from their imaginary date of 537 to their equally imaginary date of 607?
Yes, you are correct. But this thread is about COJ's book and his arguments are based more on the concept of "servitude" of the nations. But yes, the WTS does note based on the Bible that there was supposed to be complete desolation, that is depopulation. That comes from the Bible's reference that is rather specific about that...
They get that concept from scriptures like this one at Jer. 9:
11 And I will make Jerusalem piles of stones, the lair of jackals; and the cities of Judah I shall make a desolate waste, without an inhabitant.
12 “Who is the man that is wise, that he may understand this, even the one to whom the mouth of Jehovah has spoken, that he may tell it? On what account should the land actually perish, be actually burned like the wilderness without anyone passing through?”
See? NO INHABITANT. Also 2 Chronicles 36 speaks of the land paying back it's sabbaths for 70 years. Meaning no crops.
1 Chron 36: "... to fulfill Jehovah’s word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years."
Now just in case you didn't realize, the land has to be desolate for 70 years to pay back missed Sabbaths. Of note we get this from Ezekiel where Israel's error was 390 years and Judah's error was 40 years. You combine the two to get 430 years. That basically means equal error spread among the tribes. 39 years each for the 10 tribes, and 40 years for Judah, which kingdom did rule longer than Israel.
There were two types of agricultural sabbaths the Jews were supposed to keep; a 7-year sabbath and a jubilee, that occurred on the 50th year, which was also the 1st year of the next 49.
If you divide 430 years by 7 and 50, then add those amounts together you get 70.
430/7 = 61.4
430/50 = 8.6
61.4 + 8.6 = 70
Cute, huh? !!
Therefore, there is no getting around the 70 years of the land being desolate. It doesn't matter how many other 70-year periods are going on, the land has to be empty for a full 70 years to correct the error. Josephus reflects the same history, of course, noting 70 years of desolation after the last deportation.
Your views are irrelevant. In fact, you appear not to realize that JWs have had a gutful of eschatological, apocalyptic, date-setters, and that you are only offering more of the same. Unless, of course you are a joker who is parodying those guys in Brooklyn.
No. I'm offering more of the same. Some of what the WTS says is right on target and some not. They are correct about the 70 years of the land needing to pay back it's sabbaths. If you have another interpretation it means you will be teaching a false doctrine.
It’s a pity you try to drag COJ into this.
Sorry. The moment COJ decided to publish a book he dragged himself into the arena. What? He's so nice we can't stand criticism? COJ has to stand the "false prophet" test just like the WTS. If you publish something, you have to answer questions and defend your position. COJ just runs and hides. He's smart. It's best to hide from me, definitely.
I realized before he did that the servitude by the nations to Babylon was approximately 70 years. As I said, I am not going to provide bits and pieces, since it develops into a wasteful tennis match. I will put my thoughts down in a comprehensive Study.
Fair enough. That reference was to the fact that when you calculate the years of the NB Period starting with the conquering by Nebuchadnezzar in 605 BCE down to the fall of Babylon per the current secular history in 539 BCE, it only amounts to 66 years. COJ has a topic in his book on page 229 entitled, "G-1: The use of "seventy as a "round" number." From this point COJ is a laughingstock. Nobody is going to round off a 70-year prophecy which has a symbolic reference. This is so incredibly ridiculous it's not worth commenting on, not that most would be able too because we're laughing so hard.
Remember Daniel? He was concerned with trying to determine when the 70 years would end. Boy was he ever surprised when it ended only after 66 years, which is sort of 70, and that fulfilled the 70-year prophecy? This is just a JOKE. We all like COJ personally, but c'mon. He cuts way too many corners on this one and ignores the historical reference from Josephus on top of it? Everybody including Jospehus are talking about 70 years and his better interpretation involves a period of 66 years? That alone proves he's no Bible scholar. But by all means follow him! 66 is as good as 70! Everybody knows that. Also 67, 68, 69, 71, 72, 73 or 74! Yes. It's not about how "70" you are, but how "70-ISH" you can be. That's where the meat of these chronology prophecies sit!
Thanks for the good laugh, COJ!
JCanon
50
Gentile Times reconsidered
by confused and lost in
1. watchtower
2. bible
i am half way through this book by carl o. jonsson and the more i read the more certain i become that the 607bce date for the destruction of jerusalem by babylon is nothing more than a fabrication designed to uphold 1914 and hence the "authority" of the watchtower leadership.it makes me sick to think of how they have duped millions of people with their phoney chronology.it makes sitting through studies that mention these dates irritating to say the least.especially when all the heads nod in unison at the mention of the "magic 607"
JCanon

Hi Doug. You are amazing, but your questions are legitimate.
Is he still living in Babylon? Would be most interesting to see his passport. Maybe you could give us a scan of it. With your vast knowledge of the dating systems, you would be able to give him an interesting date of birth. Or do you work from his rebirth date? How old was he when you brought him back from the dead? Probably about 100. Or did he start off again as a baby? No need for doctors for him, hey!

What a distinct advantage that gives you, with someone who can read ancient languages. How long will it take to get him to speak English with an American accent? When he can converse in English, and he makes the transition from clay tablet to computer keyboard, you should get him to post for our edification here at JWD.
By "Danny" I'm presuming you mean Daniel.
First of all, note that at Daniel 12 it speaks of Daniel standing up for his reward at the end times. Meaning he is part of the first resurrection.
Now here is basically how the first resurrection works for those who died before Christ died. Only after Christ dies was it possible to then become anointed into the kingdom by holy spirit. So the way Moses and Abraham and Daniel get in, is by being resurrected back into the flesh first. That way they can get anointed and that's it. ALL the anointed are in the flesh during the millennium rule of Christ and Christ himself returns in the flesh for this period and throughout Judgment Day. Only when all their work is done in the earth, when the last human has been granted eternal life, do they then get changed into spiritual beings and go up to Heaven with Christ. Being part of the Bride Class is a great honor, but they have to do a lot of work as king-priests first.
Having noted that, one wonders how this first resurrection will take place, especially since it has to happen before Christ returns in the flesh himself. 1 Corinthians 15 explains. The resurrected being is like a seed. That seed is planted into a physical body first, to be raised later into a spiritual one. But the physical body it is planted into is not a glorious perfect one, but is called "weakness" and corruptible.
1 COR 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual.
Note those tag words: corruption, weakness, physical body, dishonor. How is the seed of the anointed one sown into a "dishonorable and weak physical body"? Precisely. God takes the life/memory of the one being resurrected and sows it or "downloads" it into the body of a modern-day anointed one. Thus they share a modern body and modern memory.
This addresses all your very good issue questions about Daniel. Like what language does he speak and all that. It's INSTANT ORIENTATION! I love it! Imagine someone speaking an ancient language being resurrected not knowing anybody and needing a SS#! It would be a big mess. Plus the anointed who are in secret would have to come out of hiding to take care of these newly resurrected ones. Imagine the time and orientation it would take to get them up to speed, not to mention the time lost of those who have to give them a crash course to the modern world. But this is the MATRIX generation! If you simply "download" the resurrected one into the body of a modern person, then they instantly speak the language and share all the modern knowledge they need. Plus, they are invisible to the world. It's INGENIUS!!!
So basically, I simply know the identity of whom Daniel was resurrected into, who just happened to know me personally.
Don't worry though. Only one seed per body!
1 Cor 15: and as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but a bare grain, it may be, of wheat or any one of the rest; 38 but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds its own body."
See? God matches each personality with someone compatible with the resurrected personality. But it gets even better!
PS 45: 16 In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons, Whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.
Had you ever thought about what this means? In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons? Sons will replace forefathers! In other words, when some of the forefathers are resurrected, they will be resurrected into the bodies of their own descendants! How's that for compatibility! They will share some of the same genes!
See? The forefathers will rule as princes in the earth in the bodies of their sons.
It's wonderful.
Now, just so that you don't misquote or misunderstand me, I'll do a LBL for you (line by line) to your questions:
Oh, and you have managed the “resurrecting-from-the-dead” bit, have you, with good old Danny from the Hebrew Scriptures? What a hoot he must be!
It is! I can't give Daniel's identity away, but his new identity is with a very, very special person. A very spiritual person.
Let me guess. You went to Babylon, identified his remains, performed your jiggery-pokery mumb-jumbo, and hey presto, here he is, good old Danny.
Good. But no. As I explained above and as 1 Corinthians explains, they resurrected ones die and then become like seeds that are then implanted into modern bodies. They come forth at the cal of Michael the Archangel so it is before Christ returns to the earth in the flesh himself, Christ himself being implanted into a "donor" body as well, and imperfect servant of his, the prodigal son.
Is he still living in Babylon? Would be most interesting to see his passport. Maybe you could give us a scan of it. With your vast knowledge of the dating systems, you would be able to give him an interesting date of birth. Or do you work from his rebirth date? How old was he when you brought him back from the dead? Probably about 100. Or did he start off again as a baby? No need for doctors for him, hey!
No. He lives in the Greater Los Angeles Area right now. He didn't need a passport, so no scan, sorry. No need for any birthdate information either. None of those issues when the resurrection occurs this way. No need for doctors because he doesn't start off as a baby. He is implanted into an adult anointed one. Clean. Simple. Brilliant. No passport needed. Instant orientation!
What a distinct advantage that gives you, with someone who can read ancient languages. How long will it take to get him to speak English with an American accent? When he can converse in English, and he makes the transition from clay tablet to computer keyboard, you should get him to post for our edification here at JWD.
As I noted, he will be able to speak English (and a little Spanish I believe) immediately. He will have a California accent, which is no accent. He's an undercover active witness, so I doubt he'll be posting on these XJW boards.
Will you be converting him from Judaism to your form of Christianity? You have no understanding of Jesus’ death and resurrection, or of the NT gospel, so it should not be too difficult for you. You are, after all, a person of the OT, anyway.
He will be a Christian JW but, of course, he brings his old Judaism with him as well. Remember, all that he lived before is memory anyway. When you're 90 years old, WHO you are is all your life's experiences which you carry in your memory. So I imagine the resurrected ones will simply remember their past life, just as if they were an old person. Only they will be living a new life, in a new body with a new identity.
You could get him a job in the local Lion Park. What an attraction. Disney would kill for him.
No need. Actually I think he has money and is a full-time pioneer. Not sure. I don't want to give too much away. He'll have whatever means or job that the modern person he is sharing will have. But I appreciate your overthinking this!
And he could correct your ridiculous dates and your misunderstanding about the “Seventy Years”. But that might be too much to ask for, since I think you don’t want to understand.
Which "seventy years"? You know, there are seventy years that expire in the 2nd of Darius, 70 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. And another "seventy years" that expires in the 4th of Darius, seventy years of mourning for Gedaliah in the 7th month. Those are two separate 70 year periods. Then there is the 70 years the "land is to pay back its sabbaths" after the last deportation. And my dates may be ridiculous to you, but they are in the VAT4956, and agree with archaeological dating for the Egyptian and Solomonic Periods. So not so ridiculous.
Wow! Please keep us informed of the next person you raise from the dead, JC. Doug
Actually, I'm on a need-to-know basis only. I know who Daniel is and who the Apostle Peter is. That is their new, resurrected identities. I have seen both the Apostle Paul when I was living in Duarte, California, which is near Aracadia (the modern-day "throne of Satan"); and I saw the Apostle John a couple of times when I was living near Palos Verdes in San Pedro. Neither of them had died since the 1st Century. Can you imagine!!! All that time...
Hope that answered your questions about the resurrection.
JCanon
29
Another Take On the New WT Format
by AllTimeJeff in
1. watchtower
2. bible
when i first heard about the change to a members only wt, i was beyond furious.

i had gone back and forth as to whether i used to belong to a cult.

the gb continues to isolate in their own unique way all of their flock.
JCanon

Generation pre-1995: Anyone old enough to have lived through 1914, then anyone old enough to understand 1914, and finally anyone born in 1914. The "END" had to come by 1994. Applied to all mankind.
We know 1994 didn't turn out for the WTS, but few have added any alternative exegetical understanding. I do believe COJ talks about it in some of his articles, and also Ray Franz. Basically they noted that Christ isn't supposed to arrive at the very beginning of the generation that might have begun in 1914, but near the very end. You know, all those signs and events lead up to the "great tribulation" and then "Immediately after the tribulation of those days..." there is darkness, spiritual darkness and then the sign of the son of man appears, signifying the Christ had returned.
Now, since the last generation begins with a world war as the first sign, that is, kingdom vs kingdom and nation vs nation, 1914 is still a good marker for the "last generation" and one that ends in 1994, 80 years later. But 1994 doesn't work for the WTS because they are not looking for the second coming near the end of the generation ending in 1994 like they should be, but are looking for Armageddon.
If we will also notice, the "great tribulation" is NOT Armageddon. Look closely! This is a "tribulation" where women with children will have a harder time than those without them? Does that sound like Amrageddon? "Flee to the mountains" to escape? How can anybody run into the mountains and escape Armageddon.
Oh yes, and here's something another anointed brother pointed out to me once. He was saying he never could figure out what it meant when it said that "unless the days were cut short, no flesh would be saved." If we presume this is a reference to mankind in general and this is supposed to be Armageddon, then it seems unless God stopped Armageddon from continuing then he might accidentally wipe out EVERYBODY, including the righteous? In fact, this suggests that... OOPS! A lot of the holy ones got accidentally killed during Armageddon, perhaps the greater number of them and if Armageddon wasn't cut short then none of the righteous would survive! But is God going to kill his righteous ones by accident?
THINK!
Finally, the Bible clearly says, "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days..." the sign of the son of man would appear. So why is the sign appearing AFTER Armageddon? I mean after Armgeddon only the righteous are alive, right? So when they see the sign, why are they beating themselves in lamentation? The WTS is clueless about how this works. But only because they have the wrong understanding.
Instead, if they actually follow Daniel, this tribulation was directed at the "holy ones" who would be "dashed to pieces" who were "Daniel's people." The Jews.
Think about the signs. Food shortages, persecution, social unrest (agitations, not "earthquakes") in one place after another. The worst event in human history is considered the HOLOCAUST. Why doesn't the Bible mention that as part of one of the signs of the last days, especially since it is primarily aimed at the Jews, God's chosen people? Well, it does! The HOLOCAUST is the great tribulation! It's a big deal. It is aimed at the woman because it was the women of Israel who became prostitutes and killed all those babies of the foreigners. So the same thing would happen to the Jews, generations later. Their children would be deported and burned alive.
THAT is what the "great tribulation" is. And it's hard on women with children because a single woman can run and literally hide in the mountains and forrests like many did. Otherwise, the Jewish ghettos were bricked in and then liquidated. It was just as the Bible says, as soon as you saw the disgusting thing in a holy place, then it was time to flee. When the Germans started persecuting the holy ones, that is the Jews and JWs, then it was time to move out of the cities, flee, flee to the mountains. But if you had small children, how could you? Small children don't work out when trying to hide. They cry, they make noice, they can't keep up. A woman had to choose whether to leave her children to be killed and save herself or just die with her children. It was horrible.
Okay, so the WTS doesn't have the correct understanding. So how can we fix the "last generation" issue; that is, for the sake of Bible truth? Answer, for one we can use the correct chronology for the NB and Persian Period. Move the 1st of Cyrus to 455 BCE where it original was. That means the fall of Jerusalem occurs in 529 BCE. How so? Because 70 years transpires from the last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar until the 1st of Cyrus. That would be 525 BCE. 4 years earlier, year 19 would fall in 529 BCE. That means the second coming is not set to occur until 1992 anyway.
But guess what? We don't need just the "7 times" prophecy with correct dating to determine the year of the second coming. The second coming also occurs to fulfill "1335 days". That is, the tribulation of the Jews ends 1290 days. That final restoration occurs in 1947 when the Jews for the last time are restored to their homeland. This is the 70th jubilee!

http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/jcovwk1996G.GIF
The messiah would thus arrive 45 years after the Jews are restored to their homeland and come out of exile. 45 plus 1947 is 1992. Our only concern is whether 1992 occurs before 1994, then, right? It does!
So the "last generation" indeed was fulfilled, since the last thing promised to occur with all those signs, is the second coming and the "sign of the son of man" appearing, which it did. It appeared to certain anointed ones who would recognize the sign and then "beat themselves in lamentation" over the sign, because the sign was a depiction of the dead Christ.
Armageddon didn't happen by 1994 because the Bible never said Armageddon would happen by the end of that generation, only the second coming.
Now the WTS, who are led by the anointed, KNOW THIS now. The flock might not be able to follow this, but they certainly can. Tell a non-JW that certain passages in the Bible are fulfilled by JWs and they will laugh at you. But the WTS believes it fulfills lots of prophecies, like being the "faithful and discreet slave" and preaching the good news! Well, in fact, that's true! JWs are/were God's spiritual temple alongside the Jews. But the GB, as also prophesied, has become apostate.
You see, someone in the Writing Committee has no problem understanding, for instance, that the sea, means the false doctrines of Christendom. They have no problem as well, understanding, therefore that the earth represents Biblical stability. They have no problem thinking that they themselves have more Biblical stability than Christendom a world that believes in the pagan trinity doctrine. So when you point out to them that the Lamb, coming out of the earth represents the GB who has now become apostate, they understand that completely. That's because they can see the earth representing Jehovah's temple arrangement.
Or if you point out to someone on the Writing Committee that 2 Thess 2:4 is a reference to the GB, they know they have to accept that argument because the "man of lawlessness" makes itself a God in God's own house. It is part of the temple of "THE God", meaning Jehovah's temple. Who makes up Jehovah's temple? They do! Tell someone not a witness that the anointed make up God's temple and they won't believe it. But tell one of the anointed that and they understand that perfectly. So you see, they KNOW that you can't be a God in God's own house unless you're in charge of it. The only entity in charge of Jehovah's people is the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" God.
The WTS is thus part of the antichrist, the man of lawlessness, and as prophesied, comes out of God's own organization, rises up in God's own house and suppresses other "holy ones" who should be gods as well. This fits the GB totally, who rule with a hard hand over everybody in the organization and makes it so that if you go against them, you are kicked out of the organization.
So THEY know! 2 Thess. clearly says that before the messiah arrives, the man of lawlessness has to be revealed. Thus the GB were notified they were being "disfellowshipped" and removed from God's favor and cast into "spiritual darkness" on November 10, 1992, 45 days before the second coming. Then president and chief Apostate, Fred Franz died on December 23, 1992, just 2 days before the second coming.
So what is the WTS up to? They know they don't have truth and are the false prophet, so what else is left for them to do but to keep the organization going so they can keep the money coming in. There is big bucks in false prophesy. It is clear to them that those following them will follow them regardless of whether they are Biblically accurate or not! So they are closing ranks. Making more and more of them loyal to the entity of the Watchtower Society. Their "private" JW-only Watchtower makes them feel like they are ever so special and belong to a private club.
They are out to fulfill their own destiny as the False Prophet. I guess they figure since they are "out" they may as well go out with a bang. Thus the 666 beast (Christendom) and the Flase Prophet (JW organization) are "still alive" when they are cast into the lake of fire, apparently the same time Babylon the Great is destroyed by the UN. That is likely all religion will be considered as part of Babylon the Great and the UN will ban all religion and confiscate all the funds from organized religion. Maybe even lock up the leaders. Forbid them to run corporations or own property. In the meantime, why not milk this organization for all it can?
When you have the correct dating and the correct understanding, then 1914-1994 last generation works. It doesn't bring Armageddon but the second coming. The "great tribulation" was the Holocaust. The WTS will never get it right, because they are the Rich Man in torment now, they are in spiritual darkness. Jehovah is out to embarrass them spirituality, to expose their shame of nakedness before their final destruction, coming very soon.
Now you know.
JCanon