Hi snowbird:
My take is that the more prominent visitor is the pre-Incarnate Jesus of Nazareth.
The other two? Regular angels or messengers. Perhaps Gabriel and Michael?
Sylvia
Per JW, Michael and Jesus are the same person. Had you thought of that?
JCanon
JoinedPosts by JCanon
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Gen 18:1-15 - who are the 3 visitors
by MOG inwho were these 3 visitors to abraham and sarah?.
its looks like one of them is god since the lord talk to abraham and sarah was afraid thereafter for having doubt, but i do not want to take this in a literal sense.
2 of them seems to be angels... help with the translation.
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JCanon
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Stoning Moses
by Nathan Natas in"high on mount sinai, moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard god deliver the ten commandments, an israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.
such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of israelites in biblical times, benny shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the hebrew university of jerusalem wrote in the time and mind journal of philosophy.
see: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080304120710.ad7gm7i6&show_article=1
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JCanon
Well Nathan, that is very clever of you...
"High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.
Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy. .."Especially since... the "A" you have circled in your avatar is what my dirty fingernail is pointing to on this $1000 fake bill. We all know how Freemasons like including their cultic symbolisms in plain view like on dollars, right? So what is the significance of the "A"? On a cultic level? Geez I can't figure that out since all I see is just another PYRAMID. Wow...
http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/1000ka.JPG
I hope you didn't mind my blowing you...(oops!) I mean blowing up your avatar...
Anyway, as far as the psychedelics and the drugs go, they are directly related to the Mysteries...
The central mystery of the Eleusinian mysteries pertains to the nature of the kykeon—the mixture drunk by initiates at the autumnal Eleusinian festival. It was no doubts of palpable nature, so that something was drunk in the telesterion in reality and not only in effigy as some historians supposed. This is well supported by the infamous scandalous event that took place in 415 B.C. when the powerful political and military leader of Athens Alkibiades stole the kykeon at Eleusis and entertained by it himself and his friends. Another conclusion can be inferred from this incident: the ingestion of the kykeon must have been a pleasant and therefore sought-after experience. This was confirmed by many writers of antiquity who participated at the mysteries, and to my knowledge there are no reports on bad trips in the ancient texts that have been preserved.
On the contrary, many wrote about the joyful, revealing, truly psychedelic or entheogenic experience (ta hiera—the holy was the only term that initiates were supposed to say when describing their mysterious experience).
The ingredients of the kykeon were revealed in the seventh century B.C. in the so called Homeric Hymn to Demeter (it was written by an anonymous poet and not by Homer) as follows; water, barley and blechon or glechon—a fragrant Mediterranean mint, probably Mentha pulegium or Mentha aquatica (RÄTSCH, 1992). This is the only known reference to the composition of the kykeon and it seems somehow incompatible with the secret tightly guarded by the two hierophantic families who were in charge of making it and dispensing at Eleusis. After all, if the recipe for the kykeon had been as simple as that mentioned in the Homeric Hymn, many in ancient Greece would have been mixing their own kykeon, which was, of course, not the case..Go here for more: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/valencic.htm
But, of course, since this psychedelic fungus grows on barley, it makes one wonder what "else" Russel was up to with his "Miracle Wheat" incident!
http://www.watchman.org/jw/jwwheat.htm
Russell was at such a high degree of Masonry and Satanism, everything is suspect. That is, did the "Miracle Wheat" have something to do with the Mysteries and Satanism?
Pyramidology? Freemasonry symbolisms on money so that no one can buy or sell without the "mark of the beast"? The use of psychedelic drugs in the Eleusinian Mysteries?
Interesting post Nathan. Very interesting...
JC
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10.000 B.C. movie...
by greek inhi, anyone thinks that in 10.000 bc there was altars, sacrifices of jehovah s worshippers ,or something like " divine revelation" to the humans of that epoch -to wit,neanderthals, cro-magnon, etc.?.
for if god really existed billions of years back, so he should care of the spiritual necessities of mankind.. think this:.
cro-magnon = 1500 cc.
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JCanon
According to the Bible, modern man is less than 6000 years old.
Now who is to say other man-like creatures didn't exist earlier? According to the Bible as early as the beginning of the 6th creative day, say 7K earlier. That's about 11,000 BC. And if the "great sea monsters" are considered dinosaurs then that goes back another 7K to 18,000 BC at the most.
Having noted that, since man was created in "God's image" meaning with the capicity for moral judgment and free moral agency, anything resembling man prior to that would indeed have only been an "animal", like the apes and chimpanzees as far intellectual capacity, so it is doubtful they would have been concerned with worship.
On that note, for Christians who believe the Bible and stick to the Bible's chronology for the creation of man, is it reasonable to believe that man or other creatures existed outside of the Creative Days' timeline? If you go by scientific theory based upon their interpretation of rading methodologies, that is, those beyond RC14 dating since that is not really accurate past 1500 BCE it seems? I'd say, sure! But who is to say the theories of scientists today will be the same later on when they find out some curve or phenomenon that occurs that distorts their readings?
JC
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LORD vs Lord
by bite me ina thought came to my mind which is (obviously) why i am posting this.
most of us were taught to understand that lord refers to god and lord refers to jesus.. in amos chapter 3, for example both are identified.
3:11 talks about "therefore thus says the lord god...".
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JCanon
Hello RC:
I believe your position is valid and recognized Biblically, because on Judgment Day, many who were not Jews are Christians will be judged by their choices of conscience! The positive "no harm" conscience you are relating to!
It is why I feel panentheism is a more soulful connection of who I am within the cycle of all nature. Life is in all things as it is in me! And I feel no need to pour out blood for my sin or that God would want it or even that sin is what some say it is.
Harm none seems a fair 'way' for me! It is enough!
Ancient beliefs are interesting and useful for pondering what others have believed.
So indeed, no, it is not necessary to convert to Christianity to find god. BUT.. you cannot exclude that specific scenario in the whole, per my view. That is, the Bible, Judaism and Christianity are part of everything and God's plan, though all are not directly involved with it. I don't think generalized panentheism invalidates the Bible or Christianity, but needs to be harmonized with it.
Case in point, there was always YHWH worship going on in other cultures before Judaism even took place. Melchizedek was a high-priest of YHWH at Jerusalem during the time of Abraham. What was that about? And Akhenaten, after experiencing the ten plagues, converted to a monotheistic recognition of YHWH as well in the form of the sun-god "Aten", a form of worship acknowledged and accepted by Jehovah (Isa 19:19), the Bible even mentioning the altar to YHWH that would be built in the middle of Egypt for him immediately after the Exodus.
Generally, during this transition period, thus, God does recognize the response to the internal good all men sense. The Bible, Christianity and Judaism are just SPECIFIC to the direct means of the salvation of mankind. Sort of like the priestly tribe of Levi being set aside for the specific, holy things.
God is perceived positively, I believe, in general ways by what he demonstrates in nature and in the heavens. So that positive response is recognized. But the Bible takes it to another level and adds the specific reality of God's mean for the salvation of mankind and the ridding of the universe of evil.
JC
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LORD vs Lord
by bite me ina thought came to my mind which is (obviously) why i am posting this.
most of us were taught to understand that lord refers to god and lord refers to jesus.. in amos chapter 3, for example both are identified.
3:11 talks about "therefore thus says the lord god...".
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JCanon
PS. 110:1
Of David. A melody.
1 The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”Here, as Jehovah's witnesses have specifically pointed out, "Lord" is a definitive reference to Jesus.
Elsewhere in the Bible, Jesus is the "angel of Jehovah" (Zech. 3:3) and has the specific name of "Michael" (Daniel 1:1), or the title of "archangel"; but more often carries the title of the "son of man."
Of anthropological literay interest, the heavenly identity of Jesus and Satan is quite clearly understood in Jewish tradition, with competition between the two and their followers first appearing in Eden. When Jehovah made the pronouncements to all those in Eden, there were five entities involved: The snake, Adam, Eve, Satan and Michael/Jesus. Satan and his/her followers are called "the woman and her seed." That is because in heaven Satan and Michael were actually considered special "companions", like man and woman, husband and wife, and Satan served the complimentary or feminine role of the wife. These two angels, husband and wife, Michael and Lucifer, are depicted as the two angels on top of the Ark of the Covenant. On the temple curtains the identities of the two angels alternate between the cherub with the face of a man, the consistent reference to Jesus himself, and the feminine figure of the "palm tree." Thus even in paganism, the palm tree figure becomes identified with the Mother Goddess whom Satan inspires in her own worship.
On yet another esoteric level of identification for Satan vs Christ, the symbolism for Christ is the number 12 and for Satan the number 9. Thus the twelve stones on the breastplate of the high priest, representing Jesus, are identifical to the stones depicted decorating Satan, except Satan only has nine stones compared to Jesus' 12. This lends to the diagramatic images for Jesus and Satan in the form of the square and the triangle, respectively. Likewise the 3-dimensional counterparts, the cube and the pyramid.
Ezk 28: 13 In E´den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys´o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.
(Compare with breastplate 12 stones, Ex. 28:17-20)
Further confirming the Jews in particular knew precisely this conceptual connection of Satan as a woman is demonstrated in their influence in Christian art via the image of "Lilith" a goddess depicted as a snake-woman who temps Eve in the Garden of Eden. It even appears that way on the Sistine Chapel:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/aNePics.html
In paganism, therefore, inspired by Satan himself/herself in competition with Christ, I believe the general references are found in the concept of DUALISM, where Satan has presumed that Jehovah created him for a purpose and thus is responsible for Evil, Satan claiming, therefore, that he/she had no choice to to fulfill her destiny to become the epitome of evil, while Christ becomes the epitome of good. But Satan shows himself killing Jesus in various ways, since it was prophesied she would bruise Christ in the heel. This very edenic and fundamental competition takes many forms, but an obvious one is the "Lion vs the Bul." This is seen in Persian and Assyrian art. The Lion is linked with Satan and the Bull with Jesus.
This loosely reflects how the four living creatures that represent the entirety YHWH's qualities, is split loosely between Satan and Christ. That is the Lion, the Bull, the Man and the Eagle. The Bull and the Man are focussed toward Jesus, representing POWER and LOVE. The qualities of the eagle and the lion are more centered around Satan, which are WISDOM and JUSTICE; that is, intellectual and legal focal aspects.
But getting back to this esoteric competition, the lion versus the bull, Satan bruising the heel of Jesus, became Mithras killing the bull. Of course, Mithras is very much associated with the Lion, as Mithras is often depicted as the lion-heded:
http://www.farvardyn.com/mithras5.php
But please notice specifically the so-call "Phrygian" or "Persian" cap worn by Mithras. No symbolism is wasted in the esoteric imagery. I hvae my own theories as to why Mithras wears the Persian cap, maybe there is something written on it, but it is the same cap worn by a versian of Artemis, the mother goddess in the form of a new goddess from the Classical Period: BENDIS. Thus the Mother Goddess is connected specifically with Mithras and thus Satan:
Additionally, getting back to how the hair of Jehovah and Jesus are depicted as having hair like "wool" (Daniel 7:9, Rev 1:14), there is also a racial-ethnic overtone in the dualism. The shepherd versus the farmer. Jesus is associated with being the shepherd, Satan with the farmer. Thus Jesus' preference by Jehovah is esoterically contrasted by Cain and Abel, the farmer versus the shepherd. Satan is seen as the farmer, who only gives praise superficially, whereas Abel's sacrifice spills blood and thus is seen as more of a sacrifice.
In Eden, Satan is the beautiful woman, the epitome of that beauty being seen in the refined, recessive genes within humans, that is the Causian genes. Adam, the dominant male would carry the dominant human family genes, which are the Afroasiatic genes. Thus at some point in the competition between Satan and Jesus, the racial aspects are highlighted. That is, those of fair complexion versus those of dark complexion, which is one of the disturbing aspects occuring in "The Mysteries." It came to a forefront among the Canaanites, in particular, who being descendant of the black man Cain, the son of Cush, inspired to become fair-skinned, white and sophisticated. To accomplish this, they focussed on ethnic cleansing, killing off (and eating) their dark-skinned children. This was a form of Satan, the beautiful white goddess killing of Jesus, the wooly-headed black god. Below is a famous ivory motif of the Canaanites showing the Lion (Satan) killing the black child, just another form of the Lion vs the Bull, Mithras killing the Bull, Satan killing Jesus, the triangle dominating the square, etc.
Getting back to "Lord", therefore, in connection with Jesus. One has to consider that the Baal and Asherah marriage in the minds of pagans, this marriage between the male and female, is related to Jesus and Satan on some level. And thus the concept of "Lord" is a complex and deeply esoteric reference, not to be handled superficially or casually. Over time, obviously the clear figure of Michael the archangle and his beautiful wife, Lucifera?, got fused together and interchanged, etc.
But most importantly, the concept of Michael, the angel and son of god, as well as Satan and who she was, is quite extractable from Jewish pagan tradition as well as in the Bible, though some claiming to be such authorities in the matter claim there is on such reference, saying such absurbly inaccurate things like "but there is no figure of Jesus in the OT itself", which is quite simply either profoundly ignorant, or profoundly deceptive; and thus ultimately, profoundly ANNOYING and TIRESOME.
Thaaanks. That's all...
JCanon
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Why make prophecies cryptic?
by LtCmd.Lore inok, this thread is not about whether or not the bible prophecies are valid.
i just want to know why god would inspire a prophecy about a giant tree, bowls of anger, seven headed animals, the moon turning to blood, the sun going dark, the sea turning to blood, everything else turning to blood multiple times.. counting things in days when he actually means years, using 'times' which don't meen anything.
symbolizing rulers with trees, horns and mountains.
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JCanon
Don't worry if you like you fellow bothers as much as you love yourself ... everything's just ok ... keep on track ... you'll be judge da way you judge each other ... it talks as much as it does ... you'll be treated like you treat others ...
It would be nice if this was the case. And to an extent it works, but ONLY IF you don't have an opportunity to understand the prophecies.
Now granted, the understanding was "sealed up" until the last days, but now they are UNSEALED. Prophets are here revealing the truth so you can examine it. Now, IF you turn your nose up at this point, given the opportunity to understand, then being nice to your neighbor and thinking that's all that is required will not be enough. You won't lose out for being nice, but you'll lose out for ignoring God's word.
Therefore, the scenario will take place, that many, many MANY people who love Christ and God who should have been in line for the kingdom, people who accept the Bible, will be DISAPPOINTED when Christ rejects them. Because they are considered as goats. Those who are stubborn in their own ways.
Satan does that. Christmas is a good example. Let's face it. People are CHARITABLE at Christmastime. More kids get clothes and toys and usually there are lots of free meals. Everybody feels good about giving. Christmas trees smell nice in the house and Christmas caroles are fun to sing. It's just a FEEL GOOD pagan, Satanic holiday. Satan makes it easier. So the fact that much "good" is done while worshipping Satan at Christmastime erase the sin of it? NO. You have to understand how Jehovah works and sees things.
THUS: The Bible says, if you have been GOOD all your life, and then at the last minute turn to do something bad, then you will be judged by that one bad act. If you've basically ignored God all your life and led a life of sin, but at the last minute turn to doing good, then all the bad you have done will be forgotten.
So that's WHY, one must be faithful in "little" so they will be faithful in much. If you're unfaithful in the little things, then you can't help but to be unfaithful in the bigger things when they come up. Your judgments will not be fine tuned enough.
Therefore, it is a FOOLISH VIRGINS laziness that thinks that only the minimal and basic things are necessary. The oil IN THE LAMPS are "charity" and brotherly love and all those things. The basics. But that doesn't get them into the kingdom. The wise virgins bring the "extra oil", which are the other things provided in the Bible, which are the prophetic prophesies, the chronology and prophetic patterns.
Now granted, this is COMPLEX. But one tale-tale sign of the falacy of some of the people who think "charity" is the ticket into the kingdom is the fact that they often put down and ridicule those who actually DO make the special effort to look into the prophecies and try to gain understanding. That's a PROBLEM. They've decided for themselves it's too complex to deal with the prophecies. Fine. Maybe they have reason. But then for those who do make the effort they want to discourage and condemn them? NO. At the very least they should admire those who do have the patience and interest, and maybe hope to learn from them. But to dispise chronology some some do and to speak of it disparagingly? Oh NO! Definitely the wrong attitude.
SO HERE'S THE UPDATE: On Judgment Day if it happens to turn out that showing lack of interest in the Bible ends up getting you tossed into Gehenna. Whom do you have to blame? Jesus? No. Jehovah? No, since he provided you with a BIBLE. Oh then whom? What was that? You want to borrow a mirror?
So, gamble with your own life if you want.
Now, indeed, there will be great mercy shown since Satan is so pervasive. But be VERY CAREFUL about condemning those who do make the effort to at least TRY to figure out the chronology and make sense of the prophecies.
Besides, what excuse to YOU have now since I've explained all the prophesies for you? You need only check them out.
LAZY Christians will not get into the kingdom, I can assure of that. Cavalier does not go over well with God and Christ.
JC
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JCanon
Holy hair picks, JC.
Isn't Jehovah supposed to be a spirit, devoid of any physical characteristics?
But, just in case, I offer this as a token of friendship to your "Jehovah"...
Thanks for the pick. Of course, YES, Jehovah is a spirit, but is illustrated in human terms as are the angels and Jesus. And his hair simply happened to have a specific description of being like "wool". That probably makes ZERO sense as far as appearance until you realize the Bible is talking about a hairstyle similar to a round Afro.
By the way, I also saw Satan. You know how Jehovah was making bets with Satan about Job? Well Jehovah likes to bet and Satan takes him up on it. So I was privy to Jehovah betting against Satan on how much pain I could take (--I'll skip the details...); anyway, there was Satan and Jehovah above me while I lay there confused. But I observed that Jehovah creates his appearance as a midd-aged man, about maybe 55. But the angels are like in their 20's. Satan looked about 23. He had short hair, was white and resembled Brad Pitt, in both size and incredibly beautiful to look at. He was sort of hyper. I was surprised Jehovah and Satan were still on such good terms, frankly. Anyway, he got kicked out of heaven that day.
As far as the angels go, once the Bride Class goes to heaven, then they will reflect all the races as well. So I think certain angels reflect "ethnic" themes. Jehovah just happens to be right in the middle. He's mullato, half black and half white. But if you take a very dark African and mate with a fair, blonde from Scandinavia, then the children will look "black". So Jehovah was not dark skinned, but his hair was in an Afro style, which is appropriately described as looking like "wool"... what else can I say?
JC
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Why Is Relgion So Focused on Eschatology - to the Point of Obsession?
by Rapunzel inone of the major concepts that seems to be found in virtually all of the world's major religions is that of eschatology - the study of the end things, specifically the end of the world.
this is one idea that unites the disparate religions of the world.
furthermore, eschatological concerns constitute a link or a bridge between the religions currently practised in the world, and other ancient, forgotten religions.
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JCanon
Whether one buys into eschatology or not, I think it is noteworthy that the Bible's end-times has LIMITS. Some here talk as if people will talk of the end of the world for eons into the future and nothing will change in that regard. But the fact is, the Bible's eschatology has some definite chronology attached.
The critical general reference I think that most understand is the 6000 years of man's existence running out and the millennium fulfilling the 7th day. That was a key point for the WTS and their focus on 1975. Chronology revisions occurred in the ancient past that has distorted this but not more than slightly over 100 years max. So this IS a critical time in the history of man. Point being, if the millennium date passes by then it would suggest the Bible is not a true book of history or prophecy. So the obsession with eschatology as far as the Bible is concerned is limited. The end of the world has to happen before 6000 years runs out.
2011 AD is a rather critical marker for that 6000-year chronology. It's a concervative cutoff point that some are looking into. So we're still within that overlap time for the end of the world to happen in line with the 6000 year theory and so I think, in particular, until that period clearly runs out, based upon the chronology options now in place then eschatology will remain an interest to those looking to the Bible for answers to man's existence.
JC
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Why make prophecies cryptic?
by LtCmd.Lore inok, this thread is not about whether or not the bible prophecies are valid.
i just want to know why god would inspire a prophecy about a giant tree, bowls of anger, seven headed animals, the moon turning to blood, the sun going dark, the sea turning to blood, everything else turning to blood multiple times.. counting things in days when he actually means years, using 'times' which don't meen anything.
symbolizing rulers with trees, horns and mountains.
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JCanon
Because they are only for people who really love god. And are willing to spend the energy "seeking him out".
Yeah, thats how I parent my kids. I stay out of their sight and sent them a book of instructions through a mediator. I never speak to them, but they better worship and adore me or I'm gona squash them like bugs.
I'm the best parent ever, just ask me, that proves it.
It's not "exactly" like this, but your perception is addressed legally. Basically, it boils down to this. Suppose you simply reach old age and die? What account would you have against God?
Or let's say you don't survive Armageddon, though I'm hoping you would. Say you're 50 now. On Judgment Day you will be able to come back and live out the rest of your days to old age, say 80 years old. That way, Jehovah would not have taken anything away from you that you potentially have right now. Which is a chance to live into old age, hopefully without any major illnesses, but many do die younger due to sickness, which is the legacy from Adam. No one escapes. Everyone DIES. Even Jesus Christ.
The difference is, that theoretically, after everyone has had their temporary life, been born, lived and then died. Jehovah can then select from among everyone who has lived and grant them a second life. One which will last forever.
So God is not really out to squash people in desperation, but to see who appreciates life enough to be obedient.
But the basics still apply. If you're nice to Jehovah; he can be very generous and nice to you. If you want to flip him off, well... he did create the sun, so... the lake of fire awaits, sorry to say.
IT'S UP TO YOU.
JC
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23
Why make prophecies cryptic?
by LtCmd.Lore inok, this thread is not about whether or not the bible prophecies are valid.
i just want to know why god would inspire a prophecy about a giant tree, bowls of anger, seven headed animals, the moon turning to blood, the sun going dark, the sea turning to blood, everything else turning to blood multiple times.. counting things in days when he actually means years, using 'times' which don't meen anything.
symbolizing rulers with trees, horns and mountains.
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JCanon
To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted
You really are special, aren't you, JCanon?Yes. But I'm not the only one going to heaven. And maybe those who get to understand more are those who are ACTUALLY INTERESTED in the Bible. Wise virgins who bring along the "extra oil" rather than expecting to just get by with the minimum effort. Every man's salvation is in his own hands. You can be "special" too.... JC
