Posts by JCanon

26

The WT's muffled message: Where's the ``Good News of the Kingdom" in This?

by Room 215 in

it's been commented on several times on this forum, but it would seem that the billions of hours lavished by jws in purportedly getting their message to the public has been a dismal failure, at least if measured by the extent to which they've been able get their core beliefs (i.e., god's kindom has been established invisibly in 1914 and you had better get with our program or face annihilation -- and soon) -- across to the public.

take a look at some of the front-page titles of this current year's magazines (especially the awake!

which most jws like to feature in preference to the wt) and ask yourselves: where the !#!%!

JCanon

The witnesses do preach GOOD NEWS!

Life eternal possible in a paradise earth. No more death, no more sickness! That's good news!

As far as Armageddon goes, only the wicked will be destroyed and possibly not right away. That is, those directly opposing the kingdom just won't wake up morning and the world will be in the hands of the living. Others not chosen to actually qualify to enjoy the millennium perhaps due to some neglect, etc, might be allowed to live out their "normal life" of 80 years or so at the beginning of the millennium. This might be a large number and will help to keep the earths stabilized due to the sudden population drop.

Then after that, there will be JUDGMENT DAY, but not a "choice" to serve God or die. No. Judgment Day will be based upon the comparative judgments of mankind's experience, handicapping for circumstances, Satan's influence, imperfection, etc. and that will be used to judge what you did during your life. You are judged on what you did up to the time of your death. In that regard, some from Jesus' day are already condemned to Gehenna but they will still come back anyway to compare notes with everybody else. Thus like Noah's day, they will know the truth before their final death. That's why the Lake of Fire is considered a place of supreme torment night and day. It's not only those there are not alive, it's that those who live on will have such a wonderful life God planned for them.

The Bible does not support the idea that God will kill lots of innocent people who would have otherwise qualified for life. Besides, he is leaving the judging to Jesus and the 1,440,000 judges from all walks of life who will decide what is what. Some of them will likely think just as you would as far as granting mercy and life.. Actually, the bar will be fairly low with those in Jesus' day, who knew exactly who he was but still didn't want him (much like Satan knows God but has decided he would rather rebel) being the criteria. So you have to sort of deliberately have chosen consciously to go the wrong way not to be invited to have life.

Take for instance a group of bank robbers. One might be a young brother who is influenced by his older brother. Four of them may have been desperate for cash to help pay for medical expenses or food. But one of them, already rich, just likes the idea of challenging authority, breaking the law and wants all the money in the world and wants to be king over everyone. After getting the money, he decides to then kill at least ten people just for the sake of it, after first raping a few of them. Some of the others might be shown some mercy and consideration of the circumstancs, but if you know intentfully what you're doing and your intent is to do harm and challenge god, then you've made your own choice.

In fact, Jesus Christ at the second coming will probably rub some people the wrong way so badly, they will think being dead in the lake of fire is far better than being alive to serve the new Christ who must be worshipped as a god. They have their standards, after all. So they will voluntarily dive into the lake of fire just to get away from the new Messiah.

On the other hand, though, again, some have already been written in the "book of life" before they come back, so they are already "judged" righteous and will be coming back to get their prize of eternal life. So it's not going to be a lot of preaching and pleading at Judgment Day. What you were up to the last week of your is likely what you'll be judged on.

JC

97

Was Jesus Created?

by 9thWonder in

was jesus created?

this question came out of a discussion i was having with a preacher of a no-denominational church.

he was trying to convince me of the truth of the trinity doctrine.

JCanon

“If only some ancient unknown apostolic letter was discovered that would clarify the issue one way or other or if we could travel back in time and ask all the apostles to clarify the issue. Was there a time when the Firstborn Son did not exist? Is he inferior to the Father?”

I can't believe some of these comments.

There is no getting around that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, he has an "archangel's voice" (1 Thes. 4) and is called a "son" of God. How convenient all of a sudden "son" means somthing else when applied to Jesus. I don't think so.

It's very simple. Jesus is God's SON, therefore he was created. End of story. God calls the other angels "sons", they were created. No issue.

When Christ returned after his sacrifice, he was given a "higher position" than he had before. Hello? I thought he was equal to God and God himself? I guess not?

Maybe this was Jesus "created" or not really not a doctrinal issue but an I.Q. issue. Hmmm....

14

Link between BTG and Roman empire seeking information

by Ticker in

can someone who knows about this please elaborate as i have never heard this explanation.

i had no idea that their was a possibility that john was depicting babylon the great as figurative to rome.

this is new to me but very interesting, can someone please provide some references or examples as to how this is probable.

JCanon

Just a note, that if you've decided that Rome is BTG that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own interpretation, but that is not what witnesses teach in case you didn't know. The witnesses believe that BTG is the "world empire of false religion." They also believe that the scarlet-colored wild beast is none other than the United Nations and thus the setting of BTG riding the back of the UN is a modern interpretation and would not have anything to do with Rome. So Rome as BTG is a teaching not related to what JWs teach. Was not sure that was clear in case that was part of your question. I personally have my own view who BTG is but will not interrupt this Rome discussion thread on those thoughts. Hope this was helpful.

JC

42

Another 607 / 587 BCE question, How do JW's fix the 20 years ??

by run dont walk in

ok, since all the evidence and people/scholars etc, all agree that jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 bce and not 607 bce.

how do the jw's get the extra 20 years, i understand the 2520 years and going back from 1914. but alot of the proof goes by adding up the kings reigns, and it gets you to the 587/586 date, do jw's simply add on a few years for each king, or is their a mystery king that ruled for 20 years that only they know about.. hhhhhhmmmmmmm.

hope my question makes sense.

JCanon

How do the JW's get the extra 20 years, I understand the 2520 years and going back from 1914.

The 20 years comes from the acknowledgement of JWs of the Biblical reference at 2 Chronicles 36;21 is simply too straightforward to sidestep. That verse talks about 70 years of desolation of the land to pay back it's sabbaths...

JWs read this and interpret this as a reference to mean the land was supposed to be desolated for 70 years. That being the case, Babylonian records aside, they side the the Bible in this regard and dating the return of the Jews that ended the 70 years in 537BCE, they count back to 607BCE for the fall of Jerusalem. This just happens to be 20 years askew from the Babylonian chronology that dates the 18th of Nebuchadnezzar in 587BCE.

So the way they deal with this is Bible versus secular records in which case, where there is a direct or unresolvable contradiction, the Bible is trusted as the superior and true reference, being the inspired word of God and the pagan records considered defective.

That's where the 20 years comes from. It's actually based on the Bible.

As a trivial note, though, Josephus at Antiquities 11.1.1 likewise claims there were 70 years from the last deportation (4 years later) to the 1st of Cyrus and thus he too agrees with both the Bible and JWs that the land was desolate for 70 years, though not exactly the same 70 years as the witnesses, but certainly expanding the NB period, making it 26 years longer than the Babylonian records, which if the Bible is correct, would be presumed to be revised records.

JC

7

607bce ? thanks and my background info

by adversary in

thanks for all the welcomes and advice., i especially liked jcanon's line of biblical only reasoning, also thanks to mrsjones and that great link to the k.i.s.s.

approach of alleymom.... a little background info for those interested.

i am 55 yeras old and was raised as a roman catholic, i went to catholic schools for 8 years.

JCanon

Thanks for your kind words, Adversary. This is just a research note for you since you were interested in the canon..

.after that i read a couple of books on the history of the n.t. canon and found that there was much disagreement about which books should be considered scripture ( i still have some serious questions about this ), the 1st 27 book canon the same as our current canon wasnt listed until 367 ce by athanasius. i found that in some christians didnt accept all of our 27 books, some accepted10-12 books others 22 books, some 24 books and some had additional books which are not part of our current canon. i concluded that it was impossible to know which books are inspired by god and which are not. i subsquently lost faith in the bible,

There is de facto Bilical canon implied by the cross-quoting of the NT Bible writers of books in the original canon. Of these, as noted by JWs, 3 books in the current cannon are not quoted from which as Esther, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon.

I believe to resolve doubts about authenticity, even though other bokos might have been truthful and accurate those that would be included in the Bible were quoted from, thus those excluded considered non-inspired. In that regard, Esther and Song of Sololom are definitely not inspired based upon their own contextual reasons. But having noted that, you should be aware that some of us (as myself) do not consider Esther, Ecclesiastes or Song of Solomon part of the "Apostolic Canon" estabilshed by cross-quoting. You might want to consider eliminating or questioning these books as part of the inspired canon since the Apostles and Christian Bible writers excluded these books, but consider the others as inspired.

JC

9

607 bce ?

by adversary in

hi i am new to this forum and have been studying with the jehovah's .

witnesses for about 8 months.

i am considering becoming an unbaptized .

JCanon

Welcome adversary. You are in a unique position since you are in the JW context. So though the debates over the date for the fall of Jerusalem has many sides and JWs have their own take on the evidence, I think it is more pertinent for you to understand why the 607BCE dating also does't work Biblically.

The 607BCE dating quite simply derives from dating the return of the Jews in 537BCE and adding 70 years to get 607BCE for the fall of Jerusalem. However, the last deportation was not the year Jerusalem fell but 4 years later in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar:

Jeremiah 52: 30 I n the twenty-third year of Neb·u·chad·rez´zar, Neb·u´zar·ad´an the chief of the bodyguard took Jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls. All the souls were four thousand and six hundred.

JW teach the land was completed desolated the same year that Jerusalem fell. But this is not the case. The actual Biblcial detail is that Gedaliah was killed the following year in the 20th of of Nebuchadnezzar and not the same 19th year though this is not specific. But we learn from Zechariah 1 and 7 that the 2nd year of Darius the Mede marked 70 years after the fall of Jerusalem and 70 years after mourning in the seventh month for Gedaliah fell in the 4th year of Darius the Mede. Thus there is a 2-year gap from when he began to be mourned and the fall of Jerusalem. This is consistent with his being mourned the year after his death which would have been the 20th year. The context of what happened as well, the word circulating about Gedeliah and then his offering they come in and harvest summer fruits including wine which is harvested as early as the fourth month points to the following year.

But more importantly, witnesses do not make it clear what happened to Jeremiah and Baruch after they were kidnapped and taken to Egypt. We know that God promised to send a sword to kill those who did not return to Jerusalem. But what happened to Jeremiah? The answer is that he was deported to Babylon in the 23rd year and thus the 23rd year deportation includes Jeremiah. This fulfills the prophecy regarding a few remaining ones from the sword who would return to Jerusalem.

28 And as for the ones escaping from the sword, they will return from the land of Egypt to the land of Judah, few in number; and all those of the remnant of Judah, who are coming into the land of Egypt to reside there as aliens, will certainly know whose word comes true, that from me or that from them.”’”

Therefore, Jerusalem was inhabited right up to the 23rd year. Thus the 70 years of exile which witnesses correctly recognize historically from the Bible did not begin in year 19 when Jerusalem fell, but at the time of the last deportation.

This is further confirmed by Josephus who comments on this in his Antiquities at 11:1:1. In this regard, while the witnesses use Josephus to confirm that the Jews indeed consider the 70 years to have occurred following the fall of Jerusalem and this is a literal 70 years, they misquote Josephus' reference in the specific since he dates the 70 years not with the fall of Jeruaslem but in line with the Bible with the last deportation. Here is his quote:

Josephus, Antiquities 11.1.1 IN the first year of the reign of Cyrus (1) which was the seventieth from the day that our people were removed out of their own land into Babylon, God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity.

"These poor people" is a reference to the people left in the land to do harvesting after Jerusalem fell who were finally deported and taken off their land at the time of the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. This is when Josephus begins the 70 years. This is when the Bible begins the 70 years as well.

In conclusion, the best way to defeat the 607BCE argument, without getting involved with all the archaeological discussions is to attack the date Biblically and simply show that the 70 years did not begin until the last deportation. Further confirm that Gedeliah was still in the land the following year. Thus their claim that the 70 years was literal and post Jerusalem's fall per the Bible is correct. They quote Josephus to help confirm the Jews understood it this way generally, but misquote Josephus as to precisely when the 70 years begins which he dates at year 23 and not year 19 as does the Bible. So 607BCE can be dismissed regardless of what "pivotal" date one might be convinced to accept based upon conflicting records from this period.

607 BCE is wrong because it starts out Biblically wrong, dating the 70 years from the return back to the fall of Jerusalem when the 70 years do not begin until the last deportation, four years after the fall of Jerusalem.

OPTIONS: If you thus date the return in 537BCE as the witnesses do and secular history in a rare time when JWs actually agree with secular dating, then the last deportation occurs in 607BCE and Jerusalem would have fallen 4 years earlier in 611BCE. If you date the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE as does Martin Anstey, believing 82 years of fake Persian history was added by revisionists, then the last deportation occurs in 525BCE and the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE. So ostensibly 607BCE is always a wrong date no matter what.

I suggest you use this approach to challenge 607BCE as the wrong date when confronting witnesses since it is purely Biblical. The JW position will be that all secular sources not agreeing with the Bible are to be dismisssed; which is a good policy if you want the truth. But you must represent the Bible accurately when this is done. They do not do this with regard to the 70 years and thus 607BCE becomes a wrong date. If JWs truly believed the Bible as they say they do and had faith, they would be honest and date the last deportation in 607BCE and the fall of Jerusalem in 611BCE. But they don't and likely won't because it works out with their 1914 date would be too traumatic to adjust doctrinally for them. WWI beginning in 1914 gives that dating some strength. The 611BCE dating would move the 1914 event to 1910 AD, not such an eventful year, though pressured, they have been known to be quite creative in coming up with explanations. But so far, they choose to quietly be in error.

I hope the above was helpful. Plus if you use this approach, you can avoid the "apostate" marking since this is strictly a Biblcial discussion and you are not promoting 587BCE (also a wrong date Biblically though) as a better date to refute 607BCE. You can do it Biblically. This way you retain the Biblical JW belief in the literal 70 years ending with the return of the Jews, but you just begin it more accurately in year 23 rather than year 19. The fact that the Jews as well per Josephus understood the 70 years began with the last deportation also keeps things consistent with JWs quote from Josephus regarding the 70 years.

So you can challenge them on (1) the mathematics, year 19 vs 23, and (2) misqouting a historical source that agrees with the Bible.

JC

29

Watchtower Blotch of Alpha and Omega interpretation

by Ticker in

now to cover a point of a different nature but one i feel very important, a point in which the society has deliberatly tried to gloss over in their manipulating of scripture.

we see in rev.

1:7,8 a mention of the alpha and omega, the one who is, who was, and who is to come.

JCanon

Use of "alpha and omega" is a conceptual reference for someone unique in their class. In this case it was used to apply to the uniqueness of YHWH and Christ.

YHWH is unique and thus the beggining and end of being ultimate God and Creator.

Christ is the "alpha and omega" of his kind since he is the only angel created directly by God.

Thus God and Christ can be uniquely "alpha omegas" because they are the only unique beings in the universe generally. That is, Christ is an angel but the only one created directly by the Father, all others were created "through" Christ as the Word.

It's not a "title" but a "distinction."

JC

24

Evidence for the Exodus?

by Cardinal Fang in

one for the historians here...

was round visiting my jw mother and bro (who stays with my folks when he's in the area working) the other night.

the conversation swung round to a documentary they'd been watching on video earlier that evening, supposedly putting forward all sorts of archaeological evidence for the exodus, including coral-encrusted remains of chariots at the bottom of the red sea, no less.

JCanon

You know, it might be interesting if someone actually looked up whether or not the chariot wheels were made entirely of wood or if the Egyptians used metal. I bet we could find out. If it was metal maybe one would expect to find some rusty remains, but if of wood, forget it, there would be nothing by this time.

Furthermore, where are all the other chariots down through time? Has a single chariot survived otherwise?

On the other end of the EVIDENCE, though, the dating for the Exodus per the Bible now coordinated with astronomical texts show the king who would have died in the Red Sea was Amenhotep III. His mummy is the most mangled of all the mummies even being beheaded and with a special process introduced with them in an effort to restore missing flesh. There were fractures of both legs beyond the beheading and a crushed in chest. Was this done by grave robbers or was the original recovered body traumatized? The net has information about the mummies and the details including Amenhotep III. The condition of Amenhotep III's body is not conclusive but consistent with his dying in the Red Sea.

Anthropologically, Akhenaton's focus on monotheism, perceiving a god that insisted on no image being made of him and outlawing all the gods of Egypt sounds like a post 10-plague "epiphany" if ever there was one, especially since we can reliably coordinate the dating via an astronomical text (KTU 1.78).

Did the chariots of Amenhotep III's time have metallic parts? Or were they all wood?

JC

7

Desolation of Tyre and Egypt (Pro-JW Arguments for 607)

by TheListener in

i found this on touchstoneforum.com which is a totally pro (and full of themselves) website.

i may take a look at this over the next week or two to digest it, but has anyone already reviewed these points?.

http://www.touchstoneforum.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=read_count&om=1299&forum=dcforumid2.

JCanon

Well, interesting debate! We finally get past the 70 years of desolation an to the 40 years of Egypt. I doubt if anyone will follow this but here's the ACTUAL chronology critical points.

1. the VAT4956 "errors" in lines 3 and 14 are not smiple "scribal errors". They specifically belong tot he same lunar cycle and can be matched to 511BCE. That is, Line 3 that says the Moon was 1 cubit in front of the Rear Foot of the Lion on the 9th of Nisan can be astronomically matched to 511BCE. Use an astroprogram to look it up. And the other ntoed error in Line 14 (by Neugebaurer) of the moon 1 cubit above/below the bright star behind the Lion's Foot, which matches beta-Virginis per Line 18, on the 5th of Sivan, the third month, is in the same lunar cycle and precise match to 511BCE. It is not likely that two "scribal errors" from those guesing about this information would be included in such an important text rather than be simply left out versus an intentional reference to an original chronology that had been revised in which case 511BCE would be alternatively dated by the VAT4956 as year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar.

2. The SK400. Same goes for this text. More "errors", but the interval between the two eclipses that don't match perfectly to 523BCE for "year 7" of Kambyses is the precise eclipse interval in 541BCE. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. It's too specific not to presume an intentional reference. But if so, dating year 7 in 541BCE to Nebuchadnezzar is the same chronology as the VAT4956 dating year 37 by "errors" to 511BCE. Coincidence? No way! These are cryptic references to an original chronology changed for political reasons. Once you get to this point, then you can deal with the reality of the 40 years of Egypt.

THE 40 YEARS FOR EGYPT, WHEN? The Bible dates the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE by the 70 weeks prophecy since the "word going forth to rebuild Jerusalem is 483 years from the baptism of Christ. If 455BCE is the 1st of Cyrus then 70 years earlier in 525BCE dates the last deportation in year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar which now matches #1 and #2. That is, dating the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE and adding 70 years gives you year 23 in 525BCE, which matches year 7 in 541BCE per the SK400 and year 37 in 511BCE per the VAT4956, based upon the cryptic "errors" in the latter texts.

Having noted that, we include the reference by Josephus in Antiquities 11.1.1 where he notes that the 70 years of "servitude" to fulfill Jeremiah's prophecy was fulfilled by the "poor people" who were last deported in year 23 of Nebuchandezzar.

This contradicts the Babylonian chronology of course, making the Babylonian Period 26 years longer than the surviving Babylonian general records show, but not the cryptic double-references in the VAT4956 and the SK400 if it is presumed these reference the original chronology. Having noted that, ther eis no problem with Egypt being desolated for 40 years as the Bible prophesied which would begin around the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar in 511BCE and end 40 years later in 471BCE. This is 9 years before the fall of Babylon in 462BCE per this chronology which fits other historical references that Egypt was repopulated by the time Cyrus conquers Babylon. This 40 years of desolation of Egypt is not possible with the revised and reduced Neo-Babylonian Period, however.

Those discussing this topic at the other newsgroup don't have the up-to-date information that the "errors" in the VAT4956 and the SK400 can be manipulated to match the 455BCE chronology for the 1st of Cyrus. That is, the double-dating in each text dismisses their validity for the promoted dates of year 7 for Kambyses in 523BCE and year 568BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar. But when you use the cryptic dating in both texts, which is in complete (coincidental? hardly!) agreement with the Biblical chronology for the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE, the 40 years of Egypt being desolated has no problems.

Of note, though, about the time the 40 years of desolation was to end, an Egyptian dyansty ends. It would interesting to look at precisely which kingships we are looking at and what supports their reigns for this period. It shouldn't be that difficult since Pharoah Necho is well-established in the Babylonian chronology during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar and the king ruling in his 37th year is the king that would have been deposed. I havent' lookd recently (perhaps I should now) but a dynasy ends around this time per Egyptian chronology. But Egyptian chronology is a BIG MESS with little able to be confirmed sometmies, so that's another story.

HERE'S THE BASICS FOR WHAT THE BIBLE LAYS OUT FROM THE FALL OF JERUSALEM TO THE RETURN, NO DATES:

19th of Nebuchadnezzar, Fall of Jerusalem, 74 years to the 1st of Cyrus. Jerusalem to drink the bitter cup before the nations including Tyre.

23rd year of Nebuchadnezzar, the 70 years for Tyre and other nations and complete desolation of the land including deportation of the last Jews. Archaeology confirms a 70-80 year period of desolation for some excvations such as Ashkelon to confirm this period of destruction by the Babylonians followed by the Persian Period.

24-25th years of Nebuchadnezzar: After Nebuchadnezzar had conquered all and desolated the entire land of Israel and Judah, though Egypt was spared, he felt pride and bragged about his greatness. A year after this bragging God smote him and he became a beast in the field for 7 years. Thus sometime from his 31st to 32nd years, where we have no records from Babylon. But his throne was preserved.

Year 37: We have Babylonian records plus the Biblical record that Nebuchadnezzar invaded Egypt this year. From here we can count 40 years. From year 23 to yar 37 is 14 years which leaves 56 out of the 70. After 40 years you have 16 years left. Babylon falls 6 years before the 70 years is over, so Egypt has 10 years to redevelop after the 40 years is over allowing plenty of time for them to assist the Babylonians in opposing Cyrus and Darius the Mede when the Medo-Persians began to attack Babylon during the reign of Nabonidus.

FINAL COMMENT: Those believing in 537BCE and 607BCE and even 539BCE are in error for not initially trusting the Bible and dating the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE instead of relying upon revised Babylonian and Persian records. Those who originally accepted the Biblical chronology which dates the 1st of Cyrus in 455BCE now have both the VAT4956 and the SK400 as extra-Biblical evidence of this chronology and every reason to dismiss the two texts as manipulated and conspiratorial. In the end, the Bible is vindicated totally!

BUT DON'T STOP HERE!!! Use RELATIVE CHRONOLOGY to figure out which pharoah/s were ruling after the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar to see what is said about them and if their rulerships are truly substantiated or just filled in! There should be some scanty evidence for this period of pharoahs if the Bible is true and Egypt was desolated for these 40 years.

I suppose I'll have to look into this now further, but if the Bible is true, there sould be some inconsistencies in the Egyptian record 37 years or so after the fall of Necho by Nebuchadnezzar, and event you can coordinate with Babylonian, Biblical and Egyptian records. Do the research. Who knows? Something interesting might just pop up.

JC

20

"And war broke out in heaven" - Why and how?

by truthseeker in

i don't know if anyone has brought up the subject of "the war in heaven" before, but i have a few questions.

maybe leolaia could help out with this one.

revelation 12 talks about a war in heaven - now this is not just any war.

JCanon

I was there so I can confirm the particulars.

First of all it happened in 1992 which matches three Biblcial references for the second coming. But interestingly enough, it is as you said rather "victimless." What it resembles in human terms was simply a court battle. Satan was on trial for many things of the past. Satan's arguments were many including that God created him the way he was, extremely beautiful with a needy personality making it impossible to be happy and he sort of had a right to do what he wanted. The final argument boiled down to, though, that if he were so happy and wanted to commit suicide that was one thing, but deciding to murder millions of others in his anxiety attack was totally unacceptable. If he wanted to die and was so unhappy he could have arranged some sort of self destruction. What's the justification of killing innocent men? No excuse. So he was condemned and cast out of heaven.

But continue to read revealtion. A star fell from heaven to the earth at the same time. When Satan was kicked out of heaven it made it possible to set up the kingdom with those of the saints of Christ but this was the time Christ also reappeared in the earth. This was done by taking up the body of the "prodigal son", one of his followers chosen to embody his identity at the second coming. This is the prophesied second "wave offering" with leaven as Leviticus 23 points out.

At any rate, it was a court battle, legal arguments. That was the war.

But please note another reference that both the "earth" and the "sea" are to have woe when this happens. The heavens were joyous, in fact, they actually parited in heaven for three whole days! They were really glad Satan was gone. But in Revelation the "earth" and the "sea" have special references. Note the Lamb-Dragon beast comes out of the "earth" and the "666" Beast comes out of the "sea." The sea represents Christendom and the "earth" represents the witness organization. The 666 Beast is the powerful leaderships that are part of Christendom and "Western" culture which is almost synonomous with Christianinity. The Lamb-Dragon Beast represents the apostate Governing Body of the WTS. The earth represents things related to things that are connected with the accurate Bible knowledge and God's organization.

As far as why God cast the demons to the earth, ths is only temporary. After the short while allowed for setting up the kingdom and sealing the anointed, Satan will be abyssed along with his demons for the 1000-year rule of Christ. He will be let loose a short period of time after that to test mankind who come out of the millennium. We are in that critical period of time right after the war in heaven when Satan is kicked out but before Armageddon at which time he is abyssed.

Angels generally had access to both heaven and earth before, but at this point Satan was excluded from heaven and confined to the earth.

Again, this is also the time the "woman" gives birth to the Messiah, meaning one of the members of Christ's secret society (she has a place in the "wilderness" that is safe from Satan) becomes the Messiah. So the second coming and the war in heaven occur at the same time.

JC