Posts by JCanon

48

Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness in

sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.

we've looked at rev.

4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?

JCanon

Just as a side note on Biblical symbolism and also allegory.

You know the reference to the "system of things" sometimes mentioned? The "system of things" is a reference to the current order or things or the way things are, the current situation dictating at the time. Well the order of things is reflected most pertinently in the order of the heavens, the predictable and consistent order of things in heaven and the rotation of the earth, it's consistency, etc. Therefore another parallel reference to the "system of things" is sometimes calls "heaven and earth."

Thus in one place where Christ mentions the "end of the system of things" and in other place "heaven and earth might pass away", he's talking about the same thing. So especially when the Bible speaks of "heaven and earth" passing away, it is not speaking of the literal heaven and earth, obviously, but the current system of things.

This is a way the Bible changes venue, if you will, from one set of circumstances to the other. It is very helpful as well to keep things in chronological order, since when it it mentioned that heaven and earth fled or passes away, it is talking about the current system of things ending, and a new order or situation now being established. Thus we find the reference at Revelation 20:11 speaking of "the earth and the heven fled away, and no place was found for them." This is at the critical juncture of a great change in the "system of things" or the current situation. This is when the world goes from when Satan is released testing mankind to when Judgment Day begins. Satan's final testing of mankind was one venue in process at that time, but when that is over and he is destroyed, a whole new venue comes in, Judgment Day and the judging of all mankind. There is no Satan. Thus that system of things, that "heaven and earth" are said to be no more and to have passed away.

Likewise, we find a similar expression when the specific circumstances of Judgment Day is ended. After all the wicked are killed and all the righteous get eternal life, the judging is over. Thus another period or system of things passes away and a new system of things then takes over. Thus at Revelation 21:1 it says, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away." This simply means one system of things is being replaced by another. One heaven and earth is being replaced by another heaven and earth, or order of things. In this case the rules and focus of Judgment Day are no more and have passed away, and the next phase of what is to happen next, a new order of things is now in place.

Understanding that "heaven and earth" is equivalent to the current "system of things" is quite helpful in preventing us from introducing events out of chronological order. Case in point once Judgment Day begins and it mentions that earth and heaven are no more and have passed away, we know that everything that happens during Judgment Day, including the second resurrection has to occur after Satan is destroyed in the lake of fire, because Satan was part of that old system of things, that old "heaven and earth" that have fled and are no more. Thus in particular, JWs generally think that the resurrection, though clearly described after Satan is destroyed, actually happens during the millennium, but it doesn't. By noting that the old heavens and earth had fled it keeps this part of the text in strict chronological order.

It is quite complex, all the allegory combined with trying to understand local colloquialisms, but once one looks closely enough with an effort to actually understand what the writer is trying to say, instead of trying to read our own agenda into the text, then these wonderful little nuances make themselves apparent and the references are understood in their true context.

Just as a note, therefore, when Jesus talked about the "end of the system of things" that would not occur until the "good news" was preached worldwide, he was not talking about the end of the world, or the end of the system of things that ends with Armageddon. Instead he was speaking of the system of things currently in place for the Jews, the system of things of the "gentile times" or the "appointed times of the nations." That system of things ended in 1947 when the Jews finally came out of exile and had a country of their own again, as promised would be granted on the heels of the "great tribulation", a tribulation like the world had never seen nor would see again. That was the Holocaust. So when Jesus said at Matthew 24:34 "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away," we can take this literally and apply it chronologically.

How so? Well he mentions that the generation would not pass away but "heaven and earth" will pass away. Thus the generation that would see all these things would extend past when "heaven and earth" would end. The translation of this is that the end of that system of things, the system of things of the "gentile times" would indeed pass away before the last signs of that generation or that generation itself would pass away. That last generation of 80 years was from 1914 to 1994. But the "end of the gentile times" occurred in 1947, thus before the end of the last generation. Now doesn't that make more sense than thinking that the literal heaven and earth would pass away before the second coming? Or that heaven, where God dwells and the earth, which abides forever, would one day be no more? Of course not.

This addresses one of the fascinations but also complications of language and culture. Trying to understand some of the idioms and alleogories and colloquailisms used in the Bible that people back there understood in their time, that have no real meaning for us in our time, any more than someone saying today "You can reach me on my cell anytime!" when translated in any other time prior to the cellular phone would be understood as an isolated reference. Thus some effort needs to be made at the very hint of a possible contradiction or inconsistency to see if we can put ourselves into the cultural situation back then, that actual setting to help understand what is being said rather than going with the contradiction.

So when Jesus talks about it being harder for a rich man to enter heaven than a "camel" to pass through the eye of a needle, he's not talking about a literal 4-legged dromedary, he's talking about the colliqualism of a knot in the thread or when the thread bunches up behind the needle, the few strands that pass through followed by the bunched up thread not passing through resembling a camel with its small head and skinny neck being able to pass through small passages but not his entire body with that hump. Or when Christ talks about the pharisees straining out the gnat and gulping down a "camel" in their drink, he's not having us imagine a huge camel that might end up in some wine glass, but instead a very large horsefly, which they called a camelfly, "camel" for short, that would be gulped down. Thus the "camel" and the gnat are compared together as of the same things, only one really, really small and the other quite huge, but still quite possible to gulp down even if they choked on it. How can someone gulp down a literal camel? Still few people actually make the distinction. Likewise "heaven and earth" as a catch-phrase to describe the order of things is often misunderstood as a literal reference to the heavens and the literal earth, which it is not.

JC

48

Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness in

sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.

we've looked at rev.

4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?

JCanon

I just wanted to note, regarding the TWO CLASSES among witnesses, those of the "other sheep" and those of the anointed. Some think there is no reference in the Bible for these two classes that were distinguished in 1935. But, indeed, there is. This reference that Jehovah's organization would be made up of two classes in relation to the heavenly hope is illustrated in the parable of the vineyard workers, where the third through the 11th-hour workers are not told they would get a "penny", which represents heavenly life, something the 1st-hour workers understood they would receive. A half-hour in the Bible is 42 months so an hour is 7 years. The TWO CLASSES in this parable are those who know in advance they will get the penny and those that don't. Those that don't know think they will get paid, but something less. Thus the 3rd through the 11th hour workers, who come after the 1st-hour workers are the so-called "other sheep" or earthly class. They are identified in 1935 at the end of the 3rd hour. That is 3 x 7 is 21. The work begins in 1914. So 21 years after 1914 is 1935. The work is done from 1914 to 1991. After that, during the "last hour", the 12th hour, Christ comes to pay the workers (1991-1998) beginning with the last to the first.

What that means, though, for those "other sheep" actually worthy and paying attention, they too are invited into the heavenly class along with those who already consider themselves of the anointed. So everyone is potentially in the spiritual class, it's just that those coming later into the organization would not realize this until after 1991. This application is one of the scriptures that proves that the witness organization indeed is the selected "temple in its right condition" organization that is used by Jehovah to preach the "good news" worldwide, this in spite of the fact that the leadership becomes apostate and Jehovah and Christ abandon the organization after harvesting the faithful ones, the "little flock" that is in this organization.

This affects the concept of who the "great crowd" is though. Per the Bible only about half the witnesses (5 wise virgins out of 10) will make it. Half will not be paying attention and will lose out. So the "great crowd" extends beyond the witnesses and evelops all of mankind chosen to survive into the millennium, a choice God can make himself with the help of the angels in determining whether one is worthy or not, whether or not they've ever seen a Bible or heard about Jesus Christ. God can see their potential for righteousness before the fact of them actually learning God's specific purpose and arrangement. So it's all wonderful, and no one really is excluded because of JW false teachings, that is, for those who are involved with or exposed to the witnesses, positive or negative.

At any rate, the fact that the temple organization would become a two-class system after 21 years is reflected in the Bible, contrary to some who claim otherwise.

JC

48

Where's the Great Crowd?

by Mrs. Witness in

sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.

we've looked at rev.

4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?

JCanon

The question is whether or not everything that is said to be "before the throne" is actually and literally taking place in heaven or whether it is figurative. The KEY text that would tell us that we have to consider this is illustrative and not literal that mentions something before the throne is Revelation 20:10-15.

Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire. "

The above versus describe JUDGMENT DAY. It's the period immediately after Satan is destroyed after being released and causing mankind's last rebellion against God. JW's want this to take place during the millennium, believing some will be resurrected during the 1000 years, but this is not so. You can see this passage occurs after Satan is destroyed. But that's another topic of discussion. At any rate, as you can see some of those judged who come back are later thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death; that is, the wicked. NO WAY ARE THE WICKED EVER GOING TO BE LITERALLY IN HEAVEN! So these versus prove that "standing before the throne" is meant symbolically.

Furthermore, the original persons judged, here called the "great and the small" are those who survive Satan's last test who come out of the millennium. We know they are on the earth. Other passages in Revelation speak of New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven to provide the waters of life to mankind, and the Bible speaks of the tent of God being with mankind, etc. So all of this certainly is understood to be related to people living forever on the earth.

So "standing before the throne" is not a reference to those before the throne being literally in heaven but that the throne of God or God's authority and judgment are what they are subjected to, even though they are still on the earth. Furthermore, if you want to get literal, even though the throne is in heaven, the earth is said to be God's "footstool". Thus the earth would be before the throne as well.

TECHNICAL MATTERS TO BE BROUGHT UP LATER: Now don't bring this up now relating to whether "standing before the throne" is spiritual or not. But some believe that only 144,000 will go to heaven and others have pointed out these are all Jews. That is correct!. At the same time, we have scriptures that speak of the kingdom as an olive tree where gentile Christians are grafted in where the Jews were lopped off for unfaithfulness. So the question is, whether or not any of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation, those seen as 12,000 from each tribe, represent the grafted-in gentiles or not? To reflect on that answer we must consider Isaiah 6:13:

13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.”

From the above scripture we see what has been further explained in the NT about the grafted-in gentiles who make up the branches but the root, the stump remains Jewish. That root is 10%.

So when we get to Revelation which speaks of the 144,000 you have a choice. This is either speaking of one-tenth of the complete number, which appropriately are made up of natural Jews, 12,000 from each tribe; or some of these Jews are "spiritual Jews" and 144,000 is the complete number of those going to heaven. So are the total number going to heaven 144,000 or 1,440,000? You do have a Biblical choice here.

What is pertinent for you is to realize that for those insisting that the 144,000 are the natural Jews, that doesn't mean the "great crowd" is everybody else, the second heavenly class. There's another potential 1,296,000 to consider as the gentile part of the heavenly class beyond the 144,000 natural Jews.

Bottom line, therefore, 1,440,000 are part of the heavenly class with 144,000 making up the natural Jewish root to fulfill God's covenant with Abraham. These are king-priests and judges who have the task of guiding and judging mankind who have not yet fully come to know God. Those who are successful to doing that, those that remain on the earth, are an indefinite number and would be considered the "great crowd." Thus the "great crowd" would not be considered as literally being in heaven.

You should also understand the issue of TIMING. This scene with the great crowd seems to be occurring right after Armageddon and in connection with being saved at Armageddon. If that's so, we know they are on the earth, because at this time, even Jesus Christ and the 1,440,000 are on the earth! The 1000-year rule, followed by the period when Satan is let loose for a short while (likely 40 years) and then Judgment Day that follows that, all occur on the earth, and the Bride Class at this time is right there on the earth when all this is going on. The Bible specifically says they do not "put in incorruption" or get their spiritual bodies until man's last enemy death has finally been destroyed. Per Revelation, death and Hades are destroyed at the end of the Judgment Day. Death is no more when the last wicked person has been judged and thrown into the lake of fire. That means the 1,440,000 king-priests are still in fleshy bodies at this time!

1 Cor 15: 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?”

Again, when is death swallowed up forever? Not until death is actually no longer a threat to anyone. That means after everyone has been granted everlasting life. That does not happen until after Judgment Day. Supplementing that the Bride Class is still on the earth at this time is 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which clearly shows that all the Bride Class, those who are alive when Christ arrives combined with those who are resurrected in the first resurrection then "together" experience the so-called "rapture" and go to heaven:

! Thess 4: 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

Note the two-phase process here. Those dead will rise first, then afterward everybody goes to heaven. But how is it that those dead in Christ will rise first and then afterward along with those living then become angels? The answer is this first rising is back into the flesh first! (1 Cor 15:46 " 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual.") They are all on the earth during the 1000 years and right through until Judgment Day when Death is no more. Then since they are all in the flesh at this point, all of them are changed "together" in the twinkling of an eye.

Bottom line, if the timing of seeing the "great crowd" before the throne is about the time immediately after Armageddon, which I believe it is, then they are still on the earth at this time about to experience the millennium reign of Christ, which is also on the earth. They don't call it a "SECOND coming" for nothing. It's talking about when Christ becomes a human a second time. His right to rule from his birthright as a descendant from the royal line of King David. These are all connected with his earthly rule. Nobody goes to heaven (or goes back to heaven in the case of Jesus Christ) until all the hard work is done during the millennium, during Satan's last challenge and during Judgment Day. Then is when the 1,440,000 of the Bride Class get their heavenly reward and become angels in heaven. Doesn't it make more sense that the 1,440,000 king-priest judges are right here on the earth ruling and judging hands-on? Of course! How could they be effective ruling from heaven? Communicating with telepathy? Or perhaps materializing into human bodies? Being on the earth just makes more sense and the Bible does indicate indeed they are on the earth; those who had died "in the Christ" first rise back into the flesh before the final transformation into spiritual bodies.

JC

16

Secular theology

by DeusMauzzim in

modernity - nietzsche's prophetic age of nihilism:.

we have come to know that the bible can not be taken literally anymore.

we have come to know that the unity of the bible is a myth.

JCanon

We have come to know that the bible can not be taken literally anymore
We have come to know that the unity of the bible is a myth
We have come to know that we arose through the process of evolution.

HA! That's what YOUR experience is because you either follow academic propaganda paid off long ago to hide the truth or you don't know the Bible well enough. Fact is, the Bible is absolute history. It is so accurate that even the date for Shishak's invasion, which we can pinpoint to within 10 years with RC14 dating is accurate! Problem is, with such a narrow range of accuracy, it also challenges the current chronology and timeline that YOU were duped into thinking was reliable. But it's not.

http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/REHOVPROB.JPG

There is not a single thing in the Bible that relates to historically confirmable evidence that doesn't work out. I'm not talking about anything that is miraculous or what Adam said to Eve when he first saw her (i.e. "Stand back, baby, I'm not sure how big this gets!") But for what we DO have archaeological evidence for or fortunately RC14 dating and several double-dated astronomical events, everything is perfectly harmoniously worked out now. But there is one thing that almost confirms a miracle. The correct Biblical timeline and history point to Akhenaten as reigning after the Exodus. The Bible says when God made a name for himself with the Egyptians they would worship him and build him an altar in the middle of Egypt. That is what Akhenaten indeed did. He converted to monotheism, big time, and suppressed and dropped the false God's of Egypt. Now what would make someone do that? Certainly some traumatic or inspirational experience. The Ten Plagues! This underscores why so many people who think the Bible's history doesn't really work out think that way. It's because you get contradictions without the absolutely correct timeline to make the right comparisons. When you DO have the right timeline, then things like RC14 dating, archaeological timing, and corrected astronomical events all line up perfectly and amazingly.

So NOW, now that we have a substantial amount of evidence to reaffirm the original timeline, people who don't believe the Bible is true history are just out of touch and out of date.

Unless you want to point out something specifically in the Bible related to history that you need an explanation for? I'll be glad to let you know what research I have on it. In the meantime, there is so much now that contradicts the current timeline and history that has been revived that you'd have to be blind not to know what the revisions were. Yet out there, all those universities and colleges and professors using the outdated timeline think they know so much and are the first to say the Bible is inaccurate. It's a joke.

Dream on!

JC

28

Prophetic Speculations - What a Sad List of Embarrasing Dissappointments

by Lady Liberty in

thank you alan feuerbacher!!http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/some-prophetic-speculations.html.

some prophetic speculationsalan feuerbacher.

1831: william miller begins preaching christ's return in the fall of 1843.. 1842: miller and followers begin publishing a journal, the midnight cry.. 1843, late: miller and followers disappointed; fix christ's return in the spring of 1844.. 1844, spring: miller and followers disappointed; fix christ's return on october 22, 1844.. 1844, late: miller and followers anticipate disappointment.. 1844, october 21: miller says: "i told some of my brethren christ would not come on the morrow" because the second coming would be "in an hour they think not".

JCanon

Jc, jc, jc... You are a strange strange fellow...
The fact that they were wrong proves they were right....

Unfortunately, it's a bit complicated. But nothing an XJW can't understand. You know the WTS appklies so many things in the Bible to itself, right? LIke bein the FDS, etc. Well they are indeed the "temple" organization. That is, like the tribe of Levi that was set aside for a special purpose apart from the other 11 tribes, so in the Christian system there would have to be one chosen organization through which the Christian messiah would arrive and to preach the "good news." This applies to the parable of the wheat and weeds though, quite specifically. Wheat was first planted. But before the wheat even came up, that means very, very early in the organization before it matured and grew at all, Satan planted weeds. So from the very beginning the weeds were present. The weeds represent Russell and Rutherford and all that Freemasonry stuff. (The Eleusian Mysteries, connected to ancient Babylonian religion had a ritual utilizing a hallucinogenic that grew on tares, weeds that resembled wheat. That is the connection represented here.) But what to do. It was quite apparent especially after Rutherford came to power and wrote the 7th volume which was designed to establish Russel as the "Faithful and Wise Servant", clearly idolatry, that the organization was infected with these apostate "weeds". But by now many true sheep/wheat had been gathered to this organization which was given insight in to certain Biblical doctrines, moreso than in Christendom. If the weeds were removed at this time, then some of the wheat might have been lost. So the decision was to let the organization continue with the wheat and weeds together until the time of the harvest, when Christ comes, and then he will separate the wheat from the weeds when it was clear which was which. Basically a "wheat" JW is more Bible-based. If you show them something in the Bible that contradicts the Watchtower or the WTS teachings, then they will follow the Bible and reject the WTS. The weed JWs are more organizational based and follow more the Watchtower. They have lost their sharp skills for examining the Bible's truths. So when a false teaching of the WTS is presented to them, they tend to make excuses for the WTS and tolerate the error, not really interested in trying to figure out WHY there is an error. They wave it off as a minor problem. So that's the test now. Whether or not the witnesses follow the Bible because the organization tells them to, or whether they follow the organization because the Bible tells them to. By allowing for some clearly false teachings to be maintained by the WTS, it exposes a witness to which one they are. It forces them to choose whether to reject the WTS or the Bible. Approximately half prefer their loyalty to the organization over the Bible, showing there is little concern for real truth. They are more impressed with the organization and the Watchtower, therefore than the Bible itself. Having noted that though, there will be things the WTS teaches that are quite accurately understood, but some things that are imprecisely understood, or connected to the wrong chronology. But ultimately, when Christ arrives, he does not correct the organization and take it over and kick out the evil slave. Instead, he takes his faithful sheep out and abandons the organization. So that's the WTS' situation now. It is lined up to be destroyed at the same time as Christendom (666 Beast) and Babylon the Great. It's much like many XJWs. They are often the negative of the weed JWs. That is, they focus on what is wrong with the WTS and ignore what is correct. But at the same time, decide to dismiss the Bible along with organized religion. Identifying the false prophet is good, but where's the interest in the Bible? Where's the interest in finding the true prophet? JC

28

Prophetic Speculations - What a Sad List of Embarrasing Dissappointments

by Lady Liberty in

thank you alan feuerbacher!!http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/some-prophetic-speculations.html.

some prophetic speculationsalan feuerbacher.

1831: william miller begins preaching christ's return in the fall of 1843.. 1842: miller and followers begin publishing a journal, the midnight cry.. 1843, late: miller and followers disappointed; fix christ's return in the spring of 1844.. 1844, spring: miller and followers disappointed; fix christ's return on october 22, 1844.. 1844, late: miller and followers anticipate disappointment.. 1844, october 21: miller says: "i told some of my brethren christ would not come on the morrow" because the second coming would be "in an hour they think not".

JCanon

A lot of this is very on point for false prophecies. But we are now past 1947, the benchmark date for when the Jews were to return to their homeland. That actual event can be used to date practically every major event in ancient history, if you understand the Bible's chronology and patterns. So while, yes, you can pile the false prophecies up as high as the Empire State Building, that doesn't mean the correct understanding of the prophecies don't work at all. Just because JWs and others in the earlier times didn't get the numbers right doesn't mean at some point they wouldn't work out.

In that regard, thus we note it was prophesied that the actual dates would not be revealed until after the fact. Take the second coming and the Ten Virgins. These virgins represent the entire body of anointed ones with JWs. But as the Bible prophesied about there being spiritual darkness after the "great tribulation" (after the Holocaust) among God's people, so likewise all ten virgins are said to nod and their lamps grow dim. That means they were not going to have the refined understanding of the chronology. They would focus on critical dates, like 1874, 1914, 1994, etc. But they wouldn't fully appreciate the meaning of those dates. Not at first. But after the second coming occurs, then the 5 wise virgins with the extra oil get their lamps in order and meet up with the messiah. That is, they get the dates right and trust the Bible rather than revised secular dating.

So while Alan's arguments are often right on point with missed prophecies of the past, especially prior to 1947, there is little criticism when aligning major chronology events to 1947, the actual date for the "end of the gentile times."

For instance, 1947 would end the 1290 days mentioned in Daniel 12. That means the second coming would occur to fulfill the 1335 days in just 45 years, which is 1992. 1992 must fulfill the "7 times" prophecy of Daniel, which is 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem, which would be redated to 529BCE (rather than 607BCE or 587BCE). That is the Biblical prophetic date based on 1947 for the fall of Jerusalem, year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar! But is that a credible date? Good question. Lots of arguments pro and con. But it is of note there is an independent reference in the VAT496, an ancient astronomical text, that also dates year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar specifically to 529BCE, because of two references found in that text, thought first to be "errors" but that coordinated to the same lunar cycle in 511 BCE, dated to year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar. The theory behind the double-dating in the text, of course, is that the diary was created to safely hide the original chronology that had been changed, so they very cleverly created a diversion by all the astronomical references in the diary matching the new dating of 568BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar, but included these 511BCE references which would be considered as "errors" by the casual reader. Thus it was an ingenius way to "hide in plain sight" a reference to the original chronology. But case in point, whether you understand that theorum or not (though you're free to confirm the matchups with 511BCE if you wish) the theoretical alternative original dating for the NB Period based on this text would confirm that the original dating for the fall of Jerusalem is in 529BCE. Thus the VAT4956 matches precisely the 1947 return of the Jews to their homeland, which marks their Jubilee.

Now note that the 529BCE dating is 74 years from the 1st of Cyrus, which would have to occur in 455BCE. This works out perfectly for the baptism of Christ after the "word goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem" in 29 CE, which is 483 years later. So you have perfect internal Biblical relative chronology. But note, that the year the Jews return from Babylon in 455BCE is a jubilee year and thus it must match the final jubilee year as well when the Jews return to Palestine. That is, 1947 not only has to match up with the chronology prophecies, say for the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE, it must also be the 49th jubilee date, 29 jubilees after 455BCE. A jubilee is the first year of every 49. Thus 455BCE would be a jubilee year in a 490-year period of ten jubilees. We need only count down 490-year periods from 36CE to determine whether or not 1947 is a jubilee year. 4 x 490 is 1960. 1960 plus 36CE is 1996. Thus a 490-year period for the last days ends in 1996 and begins in 1506. The first year of the last 49 years would be the last jubilee of this period. 1996 minus 49 is 1947. Therefore, 1947 fulfills the jubilee pattern of years as well.

The lesson here is, in the early days when so many events were still to occur (i.e. the great tribulation/Holocaust, 1940-1947, the "end of the gentile times" and 1290 days in 1947, the 1335 days and second coming in 1992) there was doubt as to the fulfillments. But now those dates are past and so we can RETROCALCULATE the timelines by the modern events themselves!!! So it's not the same chronology argument pre 1947. In other words, 10 different people could have come up with predictions that were wrong about when the gentile times would end, when the Jews would officially come out of exile. But once 1947 actually occurred and we see the Jews in their restored promised land again as prophesied, then we don't have to speculate any more nor can we, since the event marks it's own fulfillment date. NOW what we have to do is RETROCALCULATE to double-check all the coordinated prophecy dates based upon the modern fulfillment. So it doesn't matter how many people were wrong in the past about when the gentile times would end now, we know it happened in 1947, so that locks in all the chronology events from the Exodus to the Second Coming connected with this event. It's just a matter of correcting the Bible dating at this point based on 1947 to see if the Bible's prophesies and timelines really were fulfilled correctly. Of course, obviously they were. We can especially use the VAT4956, for instance, to confirm the fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE, and we have excellent RC14 dating for Shishak's invasion c. 871BCE which also confirms archaeologically that the Bible's timeline is not only right on point, but far superior to the revised and incompetent timelines based upon secular history that the academic world is using, partly because they don't know any better and partly because it's the same old game of pagans (Freemasons) using whatever they can to do their intellectual Bible and messiah bashing.

So move out of the past folks!! Everybody who didn't predict 1947 as the correct date for the end of the gentile times, was wrong. So noted. But the more important issue now is coordinating all the prophecies now to that event to correct all the dating, now that that event has been fulfilled.

JC

POSTSCRIPT: Oops, sorry. Basically there are only really a few major dates as follows that are based on 1947:

1947 - End of gentile times, end of 1290 days.

1992 - 1335 days, 45 years after 1947, second coming.

529 BCE - 2520 years prior to second coming, fall of Jerusalem, year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar, confirmed by VAT4956.

525 BCE - Year of last deportation, year 23 of Nebuchadnezzar. VERY IMPORTANT! Josephus and Bible both date the 70 years from this event to the 1st of Cyrus.

455 BCE. 70 years from last deportation in 525BCE, 74 years after fall of Jerusalem in 529BCE. This begins a new 490-year period where the 1st coming in the 70th week begins in 29 CE. Jesus, indeed was baptized in 29 CE. So that 29CE FIXED DATE and 1947 are perfectly coordinated.

1386 BCE - This is date of the Exodus, 19 jubilees prior to 455BCE, the return from Babylon. Also a jubilee year coordinated with 1947. 1947 is the 69th jubilee, the Exodus is the 1st Jubilee, in a week of 7 days of 490 years each. See 3430-year Covenant Jubilee chart below:

http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/jcovwk1996G.GIF

906 BCE - The 4th year of Solomon, based upon 480 years after the Exodus in 1386 BCE. His rule thus occurs from 910-870BCE. Shishak's invasion in his 39th year (5th of co-ruler Rehoboam) in 871 BCE is supported by radiocarbon 14 dating for this event from short-lived grains found at Rehov, a city mentioned by Shishak's inscription during his invasion. This RC14 dating, likely our best and only other means of actually determining any "absolute" dating, does not agree with the current chronology for that event dated 54 years too early based upon the revised timeline! Thus the Bible's timeline gains scientific and archaeological credibility by new discoveries, likely not addressed by any of the old arguments, not even by Olof Jonsson in his new book, JTR, 4th edition.

http://www.geocities.com/siaxares/REHOVPROB.JPG

ALL DATES prior to the Exodus can use JW dates by simply subtracting 127 years. That is, the relative timeline from the creation of Adam down to the Exodus is very straightforward. JWs use the date of 1513 BCE for the Exodus, which is off (too early) by 127 years. So for the Creation of Adam or the Flood or any other event, in case you wanted the absolute dating rather than just the relative dating, you simply subtract 127 years.

10

Yesterdays meeting and the prophecies about cyrus and the fall of babylon

by freeme in

yesterdays meeting had a conversation talk about cyrus and the prophecies in isaiah 45:.

(isaiah 45:1-3) 45 this is what jehovah has said to his anointed one, to cyrus, whose right hand i have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that i may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut:2 "before you i myself shall go, and the swells of land i shall straighten out.

the copper doors i shall break in pieces, and the iron bars i shall cut down.

JCanon

Note that the conclusion of 2+ authors is not based only on the premise of naturalism (ie prophecy is always written after the fact). If this were so, it would be circular reasoning (prophecy is always written after the fact > Cyrus and Babylon part looks like a prophecy > so per premise, it was recorded after it happened). There are in fact many reasons to give for splitting the book into two or more authors

Zech. 13:8 prophesied that two-thirds of the Jews would be killed during the "great tribulation", specifically occurring at the end of 62 weeks of the last 70-weeks leading to the messiah (490 years, beginning in 1506BCE). Two-thirds would die and one third would be restored to their homeland, making the end of the gentile times. This must occur within a 7-year period from 1940-1947 per the Bible. It happened. How do you explain a prophecy by Zechariah at least 2400 years earlier being fulfilled?

Oh, I know what you will say. Anybody can make any prophecy work. It's just a coincidence! Thus I find it interesting that the Cyrus prophecy would have been taken seriously and considered impressive being dismissed as "circular" when modern prophecies are fulfilled though they were written thousands of years earlier.

Another incredible fulfillment is that of the four beasts of Daniel where four major world powers existing at the same time during the end-times show one single clear-cut military superpower. The Lion in the prophecy depicted with wings at first, but those wings being clipped and the world power becoming less like a beast and more human, represents Japan when it was an aggressive military power. But after the A-bomb attack on two civilian cities, Japan totally did a reverse and became anti-nuclear. That fits that prophecy. The Leopard with four heads and four wings and "power indeed" was thus the only world power with absolute military dominance. And that is precisely the case today. The USSR has faded off the scene as a great military threat and power in the world.

200 years doesn't compare to 2000 years. Knowing the correct fulfillment of prophecies in our modern times makes a big difference in understanding the Bible truly is a book of impressive inspiration.

Here's even one for Jehovah's witnesses! You know that prophecy about the vineyard workers? Where the 3rd through the 11th hour workers don't know in advance what they will get paid? That's about the witnesses. But we can extract chronology from this parable since a half-hour is 3.5 years, an hour is 7 years. Thus the 11 hours of work are the 77 years from 1914 to 1991. The messiah arrives in the "last hour" which is the 12th hour (i.e. 1991-1998). Even so, there is a distinction for the workers beginning with the third-hour workers which distinguish them from the 1st-hour workers. That is, the first-hour workers were contracted for a specific amount, the day's wage of a "penny". The penny represents the heavenly calling. So those first in the organization were all of the anointed and understood they were going to heaven. But then, some of the later ones coming in truly did not feel they were of the heavenly class. This became so apparent that in 1935 a secondary "eartly class" within the organization was officially recognized. Thus the organization was made up of two classes now, the heavenly class and the early class. But that is precisely what the parable refers to. You see the appearance of the 3rd-hour workers would be present 21 years after 1914. 21 plus 1914 is 1935. Now how did the Bible know that. That prophecy came from the time of Christ, now close to 2000 years ago as well.

And there are many more, so.... That old excuse about claiming the prophecies were written after the fact, that things could not be predicted is an incompetent claim made by persons who are inexperienced and amateur Biblicalists. On the other hand, it's amazing to see prophesies fulfilled in modern times and so precisely when you look at those things that have to happen in a specific year to fulfill certain prophecies or pattern.

Just one more! For instance, the Jews were prophesied to return to their homeland after this "great tribulation" (the Holocaust). Naturally, this would occur as a major jubilee event for them. Well guess what? 1947 falls on the 70th week jubilee for the Jews since that week began at the time of the Exodus, where the Exodus is the 1st jubilee. The return of the Jews in 455BCE from Babylon was the first jubilee of the third day of this 3430-year long week. So in other words, if you actually bother knowing and understanding the scriptures, there are lots of things that are implied involving chronology. Once that 3430-year long week (7 days of 70 weeks = 7 x 490 = 3430) was FIXED by the 70th week ending in 36CE based upon the 70th week of 7 years occurring from 29-36CE, then you can project the entire 3430-year long week and determine when the 70th jubilee period occurs. That is, for those not following, every 490 years is 10 x 49. Jubilees occur after every 49 years and is a sabbath year. But it is also the 1st year of the next 49 years. So every 490 years has ten jubilees (except the very first, of course). So if you have seven days of 70 weeks, a 70th jubilee period of 49 years will occur during the last 49 years. That would be something special for the Jews to celebrate their 70th jubilee week, right? If ever there was a time for them to be restored to their homeland to celebrate this major jubilee. Well, if the third day ends in 36CE, then four more days would end in 1996, since 4 x 490 = 1960, and 1960 +36 + 1996. So the last 49 years, the 70th jubilee week would begin 49 years earlier, which is 1947. 1947, of course, is the year of the Partition Agreement giving possession of Israel back to the Jews. It also marks, of course, the "end of the gentile times." So what this another coincidence? Is "circular reasoning" involved? No.

So those who do not want to believe the Bible is inspired or true, come up with imaginary contradictions and challenges, some of which can't be proven, like claiming what was written after the fact, etc. But make sure they stay uninformed about any prophecies during our day so that they think the Bible's prophecies are either fabricated or don't work. Fine for them. But for those to take a step further to actually look at the fulfillments or have been blessed with holy spirit to understand with "insight" many of the hidden secrets in the Bible, we know the prophecies work and so are thus quite impressed, indeed, that the Bible is inspired, absolutely; and so for this group, the faith in God and the Bible is reassured and confirmed. But you can't see the light if your eyes are tightly shut and you refuse to look. So the non-believers want to have their cake and eat it too. They don't bother with the details of the Bible that might be impressive as far as prophecy, and for others who are impressed with some of the older prophersies, they try and challenge that with unfounded excuses they've made for themselves. Isaiah's prophecy was indeed written 200 years before Cyrus conquered Babylon and they can't prove otherwise, but it's hard to disprove absolutely as well. Dismissing what they can of old prophecies based upon "circular reasoning" theory, and refusing to understand or look at the more impressive modern prophecies that clearly were written 2000 years or more in advance allows them to dismiss the Bible in their own minds and continuing sleeping. Well... it's not the reality. Especially not now that we have all the chronology prophecies all worked out and coordinated, even the modern ones.

BOTTOM LINE? Indeed, prophecies are impressive. Seeing into the future is impressive. And the Bible does that quite well and quite specifically, both with relative chronology as well as absolute dating. Unfortunately, the faith-building that can be derived from chronology and prophecy are often the very things ignored by the non-believers and even many believers. But for those who actually want to get the true picture of how effective the Bible is about fulfillment of prophecy, the information is out there. They need only search for it. A small price to pay in lieu of being deceived by Satan into thinking the Bible is just another book and has no ability to tell the future. No so.

JC

47

Luke 16: 19-24

by vlad in

19but a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence.20but a certain beggar named laz arus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers21and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man.

yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.22now in course of time the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom [position] of abraham.. also, the rich man died and was buried.23and in ha des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw abraham afar off and laz arus in the bosom [position] with him.24so he called and said, father abraham, have mercy on me and send laz arus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because i am in anguish in this blazing fire.. my old account does not seem to be working, so i am not a new member but i did not post loads anyway.

i am an now an athiest myself but anytime i ask jws about a scripture they say its pointless discussing it with me becuase i am only doing it to tear them down.

JCanon

Consider John 1:18, then go from there.

JOHN 1:18 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

JCanon

59

Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty in

dear friends,.

lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.

for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.

JCanon

Here is the pro-Biblical answer to most evolution vs Creation and science versus Flood discussion!

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

It's a field day!

JCanon

59

Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty in

dear friends,.

lately i have been re-researching some things i learned as i was leaving the borg.

for lurkers and newbies, i thought i would share this with you.. apparently long before the flood of noah, was a story told and recorded on 12 clay tablets, of a flood so simular to noahs that it will be shocking to you if you have never read about it.

JCanon

This something that annoys me with creationists, they don't do their own work, Their claims are dismissed because they haven't bothered looking at the evidence. They take one statement about vegetation being is the mouth of a mammoth, and suddenly pick it up and run with it, then it becomes, a complete in tact mammoth frozen with vegetations in its mouth.

Well, it may actually be worse than that. Apparently this had been claimed before but I actually read a quote from someone who actually found some of these mammoths and they explained in detail about the condition of the flesh, that it was edible and presumed these animals must have been grazing. Even saying some were still standing up! And others kneeling. So they were not dead when they were frozen. (I'll try to find that quote again).

Or this one:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i2/geology.asp

This is a detailed reference but when I presented it to evolutionists on a board recently, they immediately said it was "fraudulent." Now this was shocking to me since generally, of course, this was not that religious or personal, just discussing research and stuff, comparing facts. Then suddenly they sounded like the Creationists-fundamentalists who claim fraud when something isn't working out just right. I thought to myself: "It's the same on both sides!" It's a big mess I can likely never figure out. So I just gave up once it deteriorated to that point. Once your argument gets to the point of saying the evidence presented must be fabricated then you know the point is made but there is a roadblock to objectivity; not that sometimes there aren't things that are fabricated or fraudulently presented.

I'll try to find the quote about the mamoths at the anti-evolution webpage I saw it at. I always try to bookmark some of these but inevitably don't the ones I always end up needing again!

In the meantime, can you provide a source to this as well, where they found the meat rotted and everything. This was a herd of them. Were they all killed at the same time and same place and in the same general condition? You find your quote and I'll try to find mine and we'll compare over a glass of wine (or something stronger!)

JCanon

POSTSCRIPT: I just found this looking for the quote I wanted. This talks about the Siberian find. It doesn't necessarily go with the Flood theory of the fast-freezing, but it still would contradict that these animals were rotted/rotting at the time of being frozen or had died before they were frozen for any length of time. Though presenting a theory about the quick-freeze and preservation, they still can't explain why these grazing animals would be in Siberia if there wasn't plenty of vegetation there at one time. This so clearly shows a sudden drastic change in climate and brings up issues beyond whether these mamoths had died and were rotting when frozen, as if by the next winter storm explaining everything. So, your move!