Sorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but I'm at work and don't have time to search...I'm having a discussion (argument) with my JW hubby about the location of the great crowd. We've looked at Rev. 4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... Does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject? Or perhaps can link me to an old thread?
Where's the Great Crowd?
by Mrs. Witness 48 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Amyfa
When I read revelation 19 v 1 it tells me the great crowd is in heaven. I told this to my JW friend and he then said "maybe there is more than one great crowd"
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Leolaia
First of all, see my lengthy post on the subject:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/96705/1.ashx
But to get to the point.....
Where was the "throne"?
"Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne" (Revelation 4:2).
Who else was "before the throne" and "before the Lamb"?
"John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before his throne" (Revelation 1:4).
"Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder, and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God" (4:5).
"The twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne" (4:10).
"The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense" (5:8).
"I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands" (7:9).
"And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God" (7:11).
"Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne" (8:3).
"And they [the 144,000] sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders" (14:3).
Finally, where was this "great multitude"?
"After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitudein heaven" (19:1).
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JCanon
The question is whether or not everything that is said to be "before the throne" is actually and literally taking place in heaven or whether it is figurative. The KEY text that would tell us that we have to consider this is illustrative and not literal that mentions something before the throne is Revelation 20:10-15.
Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire. "
The above versus describe JUDGMENT DAY. It's the period immediately after Satan is destroyed after being released and causing mankind's last rebellion against God. JW's want this to take place during the millennium, believing some will be resurrected during the 1000 years, but this is not so. You can see this passage occurs after Satan is destroyed. But that's another topic of discussion. At any rate, as you can see some of those judged who come back are later thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death; that is, the wicked. NO WAY ARE THE WICKED EVER GOING TO BE LITERALLY IN HEAVEN! So these versus prove that "standing before the throne" is meant symbolically.
Furthermore, the original persons judged, here called the "great and the small" are those who survive Satan's last test who come out of the millennium. We know they are on the earth. Other passages in Revelation speak of New Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven to provide the waters of life to mankind, and the Bible speaks of the tent of God being with mankind, etc. So all of this certainly is understood to be related to people living forever on the earth.
So "standing before the throne" is not a reference to those before the throne being literally in heaven but that the throne of God or God's authority and judgment are what they are subjected to, even though they are still on the earth. Furthermore, if you want to get literal, even though the throne is in heaven, the earth is said to be God's "footstool". Thus the earth would be before the throne as well.
TECHNICAL MATTERS TO BE BROUGHT UP LATER: Now don't bring this up now relating to whether "standing before the throne" is spiritual or not. But some believe that only 144,000 will go to heaven and others have pointed out these are all Jews. That is correct!. At the same time, we have scriptures that speak of the kingdom as an olive tree where gentile Christians are grafted in where the Jews were lopped off for unfaithfulness. So the question is, whether or not any of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation, those seen as 12,000 from each tribe, represent the grafted-in gentiles or not? To reflect on that answer we must consider Isaiah 6:13:
13 And there will still be in it a tenth, and it must again become something for burning down, like a big tree and like a massive tree in which, when there is a cutting down [of them], there is a stump; a holy seed will be the stump of it.”
From the above scripture we see what has been further explained in the NT about the grafted-in gentiles who make up the branches but the root, the stump remains Jewish. That root is 10%.
So when we get to Revelation which speaks of the 144,000 you have a choice. This is either speaking of one-tenth of the complete number, which appropriately are made up of natural Jews, 12,000 from each tribe; or some of these Jews are "spiritual Jews" and 144,000 is the complete number of those going to heaven. So are the total number going to heaven 144,000 or 1,440,000? You do have a Biblical choice here.
What is pertinent for you is to realize that for those insisting that the 144,000 are the natural Jews, that doesn't mean the "great crowd" is everybody else, the second heavenly class. There's another potential 1,296,000 to consider as the gentile part of the heavenly class beyond the 144,000 natural Jews.
Bottom line, therefore, 1,440,000 are part of the heavenly class with 144,000 making up the natural Jewish root to fulfill God's covenant with Abraham. These are king-priests and judges who have the task of guiding and judging mankind who have not yet fully come to know God. Those who are successful to doing that, those that remain on the earth, are an indefinite number and would be considered the "great crowd." Thus the "great crowd" would not be considered as literally being in heaven.
You should also understand the issue of TIMING. This scene with the great crowd seems to be occurring right after Armageddon and in connection with being saved at Armageddon. If that's so, we know they are on the earth, because at this time, even Jesus Christ and the 1,440,000 are on the earth! The 1000-year rule, followed by the period when Satan is let loose for a short while (likely 40 years) and then Judgment Day that follows that, all occur on the earth, and the Bride Class at this time is right there on the earth when all this is going on. The Bible specifically says they do not "put in incorruption" or get their spiritual bodies until man's last enemy death has finally been destroyed. Per Revelation, death and Hades are destroyed at the end of the Judgment Day. Death is no more when the last wicked person has been judged and thrown into the lake of fire. That means the 1,440,000 king-priests are still in fleshy bodies at this time!
1 Cor 15: 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?”
Again, when is death swallowed up forever? Not until death is actually no longer a threat to anyone. That means after everyone has been granted everlasting life. That does not happen until after Judgment Day. Supplementing that the Bride Class is still on the earth at this time is 1 Thessalonians 4:15 which clearly shows that all the Bride Class, those who are alive when Christ arrives combined with those who are resurrected in the first resurrection then "together" experience the so-called "rapture" and go to heaven:
! Thess 4: 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.
Note the two-phase process here. Those dead will rise first, then afterward everybody goes to heaven. But how is it that those dead in Christ will rise first and then afterward along with those living then become angels? The answer is this first rising is back into the flesh first! (1 Cor 15:46 " 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual.") They are all on the earth during the 1000 years and right through until Judgment Day when Death is no more. Then since they are all in the flesh at this point, all of them are changed "together" in the twinkling of an eye.
Bottom line, if the timing of seeing the "great crowd" before the throne is about the time immediately after Armageddon, which I believe it is, then they are still on the earth at this time about to experience the millennium reign of Christ, which is also on the earth. They don't call it a "SECOND coming" for nothing. It's talking about when Christ becomes a human a second time. His right to rule from his birthright as a descendant from the royal line of King David. These are all connected with his earthly rule. Nobody goes to heaven (or goes back to heaven in the case of Jesus Christ) until all the hard work is done during the millennium, during Satan's last challenge and during Judgment Day. Then is when the 1,440,000 of the Bride Class get their heavenly reward and become angels in heaven. Doesn't it make more sense that the 1,440,000 king-priest judges are right here on the earth ruling and judging hands-on? Of course! How could they be effective ruling from heaven? Communicating with telepathy? Or perhaps materializing into human bodies? Being on the earth just makes more sense and the Bible does indicate indeed they are on the earth; those who had died "in the Christ" first rise back into the flesh before the final transformation into spiritual bodies.
JC
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TD
JW's will sometimes attempt to answer a few of the things Leolaia has pointed out by saying, "All things are in the sight of God. You don't have to be in heaven to be before HIm."
I think they are taking liberties with the phrase, enwpion tou qronou autou --before his throne. The author of Revelation consistently used this phrase and the word enopian prepositionally, to locate things and beings in the presence of god. The JW explanation makes the "Great crowd" and exception to this usage for no good reason except that it doesn't fit their theology.
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sir82
What's really hysterical is that in the "Studies in the Scriptures" (I forget which specific one) where it identifies the "Great Crowd" as a "secondary" heavenly class, it uses Revelation 19:1 to prove that the Great Crowd of Revelation 7 is in heaven.
Funny, look in the Watchtower CD, there aren't a whole lot of references to Revelation 19:1 over the past 57 years or so...odd, huh?
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JCanon
I just wanted to note, regarding the TWO CLASSES among witnesses, those of the "other sheep" and those of the anointed. Some think there is no reference in the Bible for these two classes that were distinguished in 1935. But, indeed, there is. This reference that Jehovah's organization would be made up of two classes in relation to the heavenly hope is illustrated in the parable of the vineyard workers, where the third through the 11th-hour workers are not told they would get a "penny", which represents heavenly life, something the 1st-hour workers understood they would receive. A half-hour in the Bible is 42 months so an hour is 7 years. The TWO CLASSES in this parable are those who know in advance they will get the penny and those that don't. Those that don't know think they will get paid, but something less. Thus the 3rd through the 11th hour workers, who come after the 1st-hour workers are the so-called "other sheep" or earthly class. They are identified in 1935 at the end of the 3rd hour. That is 3 x 7 is 21. The work begins in 1914. So 21 years after 1914 is 1935. The work is done from 1914 to 1991. After that, during the "last hour", the 12th hour, Christ comes to pay the workers (1991-1998) beginning with the last to the first.
What that means, though, for those "other sheep" actually worthy and paying attention, they too are invited into the heavenly class along with those who already consider themselves of the anointed. So everyone is potentially in the spiritual class, it's just that those coming later into the organization would not realize this until after 1991. This application is one of the scriptures that proves that the witness organization indeed is the selected "temple in its right condition" organization that is used by Jehovah to preach the "good news" worldwide, this in spite of the fact that the leadership becomes apostate and Jehovah and Christ abandon the organization after harvesting the faithful ones, the "little flock" that is in this organization.
This affects the concept of who the "great crowd" is though. Per the Bible only about half the witnesses (5 wise virgins out of 10) will make it. Half will not be paying attention and will lose out. So the "great crowd" extends beyond the witnesses and evelops all of mankind chosen to survive into the millennium, a choice God can make himself with the help of the angels in determining whether one is worthy or not, whether or not they've ever seen a Bible or heard about Jesus Christ. God can see their potential for righteousness before the fact of them actually learning God's specific purpose and arrangement. So it's all wonderful, and no one really is excluded because of JW false teachings, that is, for those who are involved with or exposed to the witnesses, positive or negative.
At any rate, the fact that the temple organization would become a two-class system after 21 years is reflected in the Bible, contrary to some who claim otherwise.
JC
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still_in74
*** w80 8/15 pp. 14-15 pars. 2-4 The "Great Crowd" Renders Sacred Service Where? ***
2 However, we are interested in a special crowd, a "great crowd" foreseen by an old man exiled to the island of Patmos by the government of the Roman Empire. After seeing a vision of 144,000 spiritual Israelites, he writes, saying: "After these things I saw, and behold! a great crowd, which no one could have numbered, out of every nation, and of all tribes, and peoples, and languages, standing before the throne, and in the presence of the Lamb, invested with white robes, and palm-branches in their hands; and they cry with a loud voice, saying, ‘The salvation be ascribed to that God of ours who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.’"—Rev. 7:9, 10, The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson.
3 What an honored position this "great crowd" is said to occupy, and what a dignified appearance they are said to have! Even in modern times it is proper for one to stand when in the presence of a monarch who is seated on his throne. But here those of that "great crowd" are seen standing before the throne of God himself. Also, in order to suit the occasion, they are clothed with spotless white robes. Are they seen standing in some out-of-doors gathering? No, for Revelation 7:15 (ED) says that "they . . . publicly serve him day and night in his temple [na·os´ in the Greek original text]." Well, now, does this mean that those making up this "great crowd" finally go to heaven where the God is to whom they ascribe their "salvation"? The answer generally given is Yes! Why? Because it is said to be "in his temple" (ED), or, "in his sanctuary" (Rotherham), that they render to him public service or "divine service."
4 However, does that view fit all the detailed facts set out in the last book of the Bible, Revelation? Also, as regards those who today consider themselves part of that "great crowd" that is now being formed, do they expect to go to heaven and become spirit creatures like angels? Do they even want to go to heaven? They will tell you No! and they do not consider themselves to be begotten by God’s spirit to such a heavenly hope. The question revolves around that original Greek word that is variously translated as "tent," "temple" and "sanctuary." For example, in the Bible account of where Jesus Christ drove the money changers and merchantmen out of Herod’s temple, the original Greek word used is na·os´. There we read: "Jesus answered, ‘Destroy this sanctuary [na·os´], and in three days I will raise it up’. The Jews replied, ‘It has taken forty-six years to build this sanctuary [na·os´]: are you going to raise it up in three days?’ But he was speaking of the sanctuary [na·os´] that was his body." (John 2:19-21, The Jerusalem Bible) By "sanctuary," what did those Jews mean?
Matthew 27:5 reports: "Judas threw the money into the sanctuary [na·os´] and left them; then he went off and hanged himself." (Good News Bible; The Jerusalem Bible; Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible) Why did other modern Bible versions translate na·os´ as "temple"?8 Evidently because they recognized that the Greek word here did not mean the inner sanctuary with its porch, Holy and Most Holy, into which the high priest brought the blood of the sacrifices on the annual Atonement Day. It meant the temple with all its courts.
9 Thus the "great crowd" may be said to be in the "temple," or na·os´, of God and yet not be in heaven as spirit creatures with the 144,000 spiritual Israelites who make up the "little flock" of God. (Rev. 7:1-9, 15; Luke 12:32) Na·os´ may also have a limited sense, for Jesus Christ addressed the first-century congregation in Philadelphia, Asia Minor, and said: "As for the one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple [na·os´] of my God; he will be secure, and will go out no more; and I will write my God’s Name on him, and he will be a citizen in the city of my God—the New Jerusalem, coming down from heaven from my God; and he will have my new Name inscribed upon him."—Rev. 3:12, The Living Bible.
12 "Look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. . . . And they are singing as if a new song before the throne . . . and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. . . . These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb."—Rev. 14:1-5.13
Do those descriptive details fit also the international "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9-17? No, for nowhere are they said to stand upon the heavenly Mount Zion. (Heb. 12:22) They are excluded from the original singers of the "new song." They are not said to be "bought from the earth," "bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." Consequently, those of the "great crowd" expect to remain on earth forever and to share in bringing it to a Paradise state. They do not belong to the company of 144,000 "bought" ones that began to be formed on the day of Pentecost of 33 C.E.You need to also remember that prior to 1935 the "great company" (great crowd) WAS believed to be in heaven with the 144k but as an inferior class (not first fruits) Although it was Rutherford that presented it history demonstrates all too well that if was likely Fred Franz that brought this point to "light". Franz always seemed to be the most vocal about the GC being inferior (recall the "Tom, Dick and Harry" comment his nephew paraphrased in C of C)
Hope this helps!
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Leolaia
Actually in my reading of Revelation, the dichotomy of heaven and earth vanish on Judgment Day, leaving only the Throne and the One sitting on it and the dead to be judged (20:11). So it isn't a matter of wicked ones being taken up to heaven (as heaven has already vanished), although that is within the scope of apocalyptic literature on the eschatological judgment (cf. the Testament of Abraham on this). There is a close parallel in the contemporaneous Jewish apocalypse of 4 Ezra in which the Messiah reigns first for 400 years (= the millenium) and then the world turns about to primeval silence as it was at the beginning of God's creation (= the return of the earth to chaos and the creation of the new earth), after which the dead are raised and judged with the Most High on the seat of judgment (7:26-36). After judgment takes place, then another heaven and earth appear in Revelation 21:1 and the Throne is established on the earth. The vision of the great multitude in ch. 7 has them not only "before the Throne" but also "in the sanctuary" (7:15), which again is within the heavenly sphere before Judgment Day comes (cf. 14:17, "another angel came out of the sanctuary which is in heaven"). Only after Judgment Day does the sancutary (or rather God's direct presence) become established on the earth, the "new earth" (21:22). The great multitude are "in heaven" because they have underwent the "great tribulation," i.e. they have been martyred in the same way as the saints beneath the altar (i.e. also "in the sanctuary") in 6:9 "who had been killed on account of the word of God". These saints must wait before they are avenged (i.e. at "the great battle of the day of God the Almighty") because their number is not yet complete, i.e. there will still be more Christians dying during the great tribulation still to come (from the standpoint of ch. 6). This tribulation is narrated in ch. 12-13.
What makes ch. 7 tricky is that "time issue" since we have both an audition (relating to the 144,000) and a vision (relating to the great multitude), and the first relates to those still on earth prior to God unleashes the plagues that follow the tribulation (see 7:1-3 and ch. 16) and the second looks at faithful Christians AFTER the tribulation has taken place. The victory that is then ascribed to God in 7:10 is the same victory narrated later in ch. 18-19 (see the similar victory song and mention of the great multitude in 19:1-2), which celebrates the avenging of those who carried out the persecution -- the same avenging that is foreshadowed in 6:9-11. The vision that occurs in c. 7 is thus a similar foreshadowing of this moment in ch. 19, where the great multitude are mentioned again. This moment, meanwhile, is prior to Judgment Day itself in the "plot" of Revelation, which takes place in c. 20. I am sure there are other possible interpretations, but this reading makes the most sense of the "plot".
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Leolaia
Seems like the Society has more recently backtracked on the 1980 claim about the meaning of naos:
*** w02 5/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
Fifth, the Greek word (hi·e·ron’) translated "temple" that is used with reference to the Court of the Gentiles "refers to the entire complex, rather than specifically to the Temple building itself," says A Handbook on the Gospel of Matthew, by Barclay M. Newman and Philip C. Stine. In contrast, the Greek word (na·os’) translated "temple" in John’s vision of the great crowd is more specific. In the context of the Jerusalem temple, it usually refers to the Holy of Holies, the temple building, or the temple precincts. It is sometimes rendered "sanctuary."—Matthew 27:5, 51; Luke 1:9, 21; John 2:20.