Posts by Diogenesister

120

The right to shun - wrong?

by Simon in

many people are understandably upset and angry at the notion that jws have the right to shun people.

it seems such an obvious "no brainer" cruel and inhuman thing to do - it must be wrong ... surely?.

of course we look at things from the perspective of those hurt and harmed by shunning.

Diogenesister

do agree Simon but I think something will give somewhere. It's religious intolerance, and as isis and other maniacs make more headlines the Prarie of religious hatred and intolerance is going to get less and less popular and by extension jw shunning could get lumped in with that at some point. Laws made to protect Muslims or others could be used for jws in the future.

Adding to DD's thoughts I'd like to say that maybe shunning, particularly when practised on someone who DA's or is DF'd due to no longer believing JW doctrine, hence called 'mentally diseased'or 'demonised'could become illegal as either slander and/or come under the hate crime laws. I don't know what others think?

I certainly agree with Datadog that muslim extremism is pushing it more to the forefront politically and it's bound to get caught up in any legislation against religous extremism.

37

What’s the deal with all the Smart-Educated JWs?

by John Aquila in

we talk a lot about most jws being uneducated, uninformed, and that they lack critical thinking skills, but in my area there is a lot of jws that went to the university, medical school, law school, and came back to the organization.

in my circuit, that i know of, we had two electrical engineers, one computer engineer with a ph.d. eight teachers with a bachelors degree and three of those with a masters in education.

we had two medical doctors, one was a pediatrician who closed his business about 3 years ago and went to bethel.

Diogenesister

Btw I am not saying that all people with vocational degrees lack intellectual rigour - far from it. I am saying that some degrees, medicine for instance, would be easier to undertake and not find your JW worldview too unchallenged if you had a mind.

With regard to the cultural aspect of studying in the USA, I think your less likely to have your beliefs challenged on a personal basis by fellow students.

37

What’s the deal with all the Smart-Educated JWs?

by John Aquila in

we talk a lot about most jws being uneducated, uninformed, and that they lack critical thinking skills, but in my area there is a lot of jws that went to the university, medical school, law school, and came back to the organization.

in my circuit, that i know of, we had two electrical engineers, one computer engineer with a ph.d. eight teachers with a bachelors degree and three of those with a masters in education.

we had two medical doctors, one was a pediatrician who closed his business about 3 years ago and went to bethel.

Diogenesister

I think you will find most of those degrees are going to be vocational degrees. I am not saying they are not hard work (law in particular entails a huge workload )and yes, you do have evidence to evaluate to some extent, particularly at the higher level. However some (vocational degrees in particular)are less intellectually challenging than others, in the sense of thinking creatively or/and with real intellectual rigour as opposed to 'learning facts.' With a degree in medicine or education I would argue you could maintain a JW worldview unchallenged. Apart from the above mentioned post pointing out the brainwashing aspect there is the cultural aspect of their being Americans. Having a strong faith is considered far more mainstream in the US than Europe. A fundamentalist Christian would be considered eccentric in a European university - less so in an American. I mean you even have Christian uni's in the states whereas education is strictly secular in much of Europe.

I will eat my hat the day you get a European with a masters or phd in philosophy become a JW.

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

Diogenesister

er...dictionary

definition of a cult:

a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. eg

"the cult of St Olaf" or ahem.."the cult of the fds" proof of which is seen by the fact you will not be disfellowshiped if you express doubts around the exsistence of God but you will be disfellowshiped if you say the faithfull and discreet slave is not Gods representative on earth. That to me is worship of the GB/fds.

Most religons/Christians would say that a cult is anything that denies the basic tenets of a faith/ Christianity. For Christianity this would include the JW's as they deny the deity of Christ & preach that salvation is obtained not by faith alone (ergo by Christs sacrificial death)but by works.

I personally also think the 2 tier system of the saved (fds & great crowd) is also antithecal to Christianity.
A cult has undue influence over its members forcing otherwise rational people take decisions they would not normally make. By the standard and my own definition the wbts is a cult.

120

The right to shun - wrong?

by Simon in

many people are understandably upset and angry at the notion that jws have the right to shun people.

it seems such an obvious "no brainer" cruel and inhuman thing to do - it must be wrong ... surely?.

of course we look at things from the perspective of those hurt and harmed by shunning.

Diogenesister

In Europe there's an interesting development in the non-discrimination legislation. While at the moment it only applies in the context of employment, it's in the works being extended to other areas. It's the concept of 'instruction to discriminate'. If an institution of any kind instructs its members / affiliates / students to discriminate based on, among other things, religion and belief, that in itself will be considered a crime. It is an easy thing to demonstrate that shunning an ex-JW is a differentiated treatment than that given to a 'wordly' person who was never a JW, and, therefore, discrimination. The crime is considered to be perpetrated indirectly, that is, by the institution that is teaching or instructing to discriminate.

Edenone This is really interesting. I guess it could be classed as discrimination due to religon/belief system. As Mickeymouse mentioned, almost impossible to legislate on an individual basis but do-able when it comes to organizations that instruct its members to shun. Certainly it could be used as a reason to take away an organizations charitable statu - as is being talked about with regard to orgs that lack good child protection practices.

138

My Mother Died Two Weeks Ago

by Perry in

jw
friends

none of my jehovah's witness relatives called to tell me or my family.

just found out this morning.

Diogenesister

😥Perry my thoughts are with you, that is so so cruel, you must be devastated.

I know you know this already but how on earth is that the action of christians. Really I mean I am speechless. I take it you have children, what about them? JW's often forget the suffering of children in their whole shunning thing.

I am so sorry.

65

Introducing...ME

by Heartsafire in

jw
friends

long time lurker here.

i'm a fifth gen born-in baptized jw.

to say i've been struggling with doubts is an understatement.

Diogenesister

welcome heartsafire (great handle)

It's always interesting how people relate back with the things that really resonate with them the most. For me it was really the whole 607 thing, also the way they hid their history - there is nothing wrong with making mistakes , its lying about them that is wrong, I mean isn't that one of the first things we teach our kids?

And yes, I agree with you the child abuse thing is dreadful. Christians should want complete transparency - its the very opposite of loving to sweep it under the carpet. I used to think that it was wrong to talk about how awful violence is and yet PRACTICE that very violence on our little ones. I know its a generational thing to some extent but surely Gods organization should be leading the way when it comes to protecting the vulnerable not dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century .

Anyway, you sound like a brave lass, 5 gen eh? Wow,you are going to need a lot of strength I really really hope you can get through to hubby. Many people say that its not the bare facts but the emotional side of things eg lack of love that wakes them up. Might be worth thinking about re: hubby.😀

20

Do you have J-dar?

by JWdaughter in

today at work i had an interesting set of co workers.

one was telling us about her side job selling sex toys(also a l&d nurse).

the other one, very beautiful, intelligent woman told us of her 2 kids.

Diogenesister

J-dar, love it!! Yes, after a fairly short general conversation mine goes off- the clothes are often a give away in london but more often its ending each sentence with a big sigh and a "well what do you expect in this system of things!".😜

Harder to spot in born-ins that are being co-erced though.

29

Have you ever shunned someone and then later regretted it?

by 00DAD in

lately, i've been reading a number of thread lately that deal with this topic.

one particularly poignant experience came from simon.

in simon's story he shares: .

Diogenesister

Captain Obvious I just want to like like like your post a million times, except of course I don't or rarther I don't like that a so-called loving religon would not just destroy through manipulation the natural affection & bond between mother and son but also punish a women for being ill by ostracizing her from the person she should naturally turn to for support.

I just wanna scream. It's sick. And you poor soul see this sword of damacles dangling above your head. You must be in agony.

Heck I wish I could put your post first page on every national newspaper in the world. 😡

Is there any way at all you could speak to her doctors/therapist and engage their help in de programming her?Normally they dont interfere in peoples spiritual beliefs but this cannot be helping her mental state.

19

"New Light never contradicts Old Light, but simply adds to it"

by stuckinarut2 in

does anyone remember this classic quote from a society publication??.

i remember it has been quoted many times, but i cant find the reference.. if this comment is to be taken literally, it condemns the organization anytime there has been a complete changes in teachings and doctrine!

.

Diogenesister

It's just like the English legal system, when a new precedent is set...

The law never changes ... only our 'understanding'of that law changes..

(Ahem..said in pompous stentorian tone)😜