Posts by jed459

13

God is a person

by jed459 in

the "beginning" at john 1:1 is not the beginning of the word, but it is reference to where the story starts in the book of john.

the word comes from the mind of god (the father) by the breath (the holy spirit).

god has a mind = the father .

jed459

Farkel,

You have not really heard what I believe yet, seeing as I have not posted it.. but I can see that this threed has already been spoiled.

Perhaps I shouldn't bother..

13

God is a person

by jed459 in

the "beginning" at john 1:1 is not the beginning of the word, but it is reference to where the story starts in the book of john.

the word comes from the mind of god (the father) by the breath (the holy spirit).

god has a mind = the father .

jed459

Mackin said, "The bible is a human book that contains some factual history, a lot of embellished history, some wisdom (from Jesus and others), and a lot of fiction."

I suspect that my view of God is not as you think but yes, I do believe in a creator. But actually, I agree with you to some extent about the bible, which says, by "some wisdom", that "he who answers a thing before he has heard it, is a fool."

So if you want to be a pain and spoil the flow of my posts before you have heard it, I will just wait until I have written it all down and post it in one go.

If you want to dispute whether God is fiction or not, I will gladly join you on another threed with that subject..

13

God is a person

by jed459 in

the "beginning" at john 1:1 is not the beginning of the word, but it is reference to where the story starts in the book of john.

the word comes from the mind of god (the father) by the breath (the holy spirit).

god has a mind = the father .

jed459

I left JW's of my own accord but if I was still with them, I would definately be viewed as an apostate for saying things like the following.

......

Is Jesus the Father? No.

Is Jesus God? In a way yes but to be more accurate, it was the Word that was born into the man we know as Jesus, that (or who) is a part of God.

Jesus is at the right hand of God now, i.e. he is not the Father.. in fact when all things are done, Jesus hands over the authority that was given to him, back to God, his God.

The "beginning" at John 1:1 is not the beginning of the Word, but it is reference to where the story starts in the book of John. Yes, the Word was with God "in the beginning" because he has always been with the Father.

John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him nothing was made that has been made."

The lack of a definite article at John 1:1 doesnt show that the Word was "a god" as JWs say, but it does show that theres a difference between the Word and the Father. The Word comes from the mind of God (the Father) by the breath (the Holy Spirit). The Word is spirit but not a creature like "a god" but is part of God who is spirit. God is spirit but at the same time is a living person.

God has a mind = the Father
He has breath = the Holy Spirit
He can speak = the Word

Psalm 33:6 (NKJ) "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the hosts of them by the breath of his mouth."

But these are not the Trinity because for a start, they are not equal to each other. Is your breath equal to your mind? No, but without breath you would not be alive. Is your word equal to your mind? No, but when you speak we are listening to your mind. Its the same with God and when God speaks, we are listening to God's mind through the Word by the Holy Spirit, the breath. (Breath.. Jesus breathed on someone and said "receive Holy Spirit.")

The Father is a spirit but (obviously) not a creature. The Word is also of the same divine nature and is spirit.. and even Jesus said "the words I speak to you are spirit", because Jesus having the Logos in him, spoke the Word.

Then the bible repeatedly tells us that God is invisible and cannot be seen literally.. this is because God lives beyond this universe that he created and is like nothing we can imagine. You agree? But that leaves us with some questions..

If God is invisible, who was it that spoke and walked with Adam in the garden? If God is invisible who was it that lead Israel out of Egypt in "a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night"?? If God is invisible, who handed the commandments to Moses?

Well, the bible gives us the answer and says that "the law was transmitted through angels" Acts 7:53 and Gal 3:19 This does not mean however, that the angels are God. What it does mean, is that they represent and speak for God. In other words, when an angel speaks Gods message it is by the Word, the Logos.

Take a look at Exodus 3:2-6
"There the ANGEL of the Lord appeared to him (Moses) in flames of fire from within the bush. So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight why the bush does not burn up." When the Lord saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said "Here I am!."

Do not come any closer, God said, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." Then God said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob."

There we see that it was an angel who spoke from the burning bush, yet he is also referred to as God! So who was "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob"? It was Jehovah, yet it says that it was an angel!!!

The angels have a different way of looking at things than we do, so to them it is God who speaks when they pass a message on to us. The angels are messengers and as far as they are concerned, it is the source of the message who is speaking, not the angel through whom the message came.

The truth of the matter is that God has never appeared on this earth in person, but its always been through creatures like the angels and of course Jesus. God in person lives outside the universe but as an extension of the Father (who is the mind) the Word comes through tangible creatures of this universe. We were made in the image of God in more ways than one and just as your words are an extension of your mind the Word is an extension of God's mind, the Father.

Although the angels are individuals they also have the mind of God, who is spirit (unlike the angels who are 'spirit' creatures). The essence of the mind of God is love and this is what unites the angels together in a very unselfish way, not wanting the credit for themselves for what they do as they represent God.

Now comes the shocking bit..

The angels are collectively, the Elohim. Have a think about it.

I need to qualify what I just said, so there will be at least another page when I get the time.. So if anyone wants to reply, can they wait until I written some more please?

John

Edited by - jed459 on 18 June 2002 1:54:4

9

Are Muslims backed by the Christian God?

by TheRedPill in

i was reading in the book of a genesis today and came across an interesting set of scriptures, genesis 21:17-21. it talks about how after abraham sent hagar and ishmael from her house, hagar wandered about in the wilderness and finally, after running out of water, sat down with her baby ishmael and prepared to die.

gods angel then appeared to hagar and told her to rise up, and that ishmael would be the father to a great nation.

he then led her to water and hagar and ishmael and she lived a prosperous life in the wilderness of paran.

jed459

The following is something I was thinking of posting on a Yahoo group which is mainly Muslim (but I didn't!).

Islam, Judaism and Christianity all trace their roots back to Abraham and before. So why are they so different? Which one is telling the truth? I know it may upset some people but none are telling the whole truth.

If we are a Christian, does the worship of God mean going to a church and singing "hymns" and reading the bible? Does the worship of God mean praying several times a day and reading the Koran if we are a Muslim? Does it mean going to a synagogue if we are a Jew? If we are full of self-pride and hate toward our fellow humans, those things are NOT worship but an insult.

The bible says that God is "full of loving-kindness and mercy" and I believe the Koran says something similar too. I admit I don't know much about the Koran but I saw a quote from it the other day

"Oh people, we have created you male and female, and we have made you peoples and tribes, in order to make it easier for you to know each other. Indeed, the one Allah honors most are those amongst you who are the most righteous."

No-one is as righteous as God but who does God consider the most righteous? What does this tell us?

So what went wrong? Why has religion been the cause of so many wars and hate? In all the main religions of the world there has been terrible bloodshed, doing the exact opposite to what God intended.

"Oh people, we have created you male and female, and we have made you peoples and tribes, in order to make it easier for you to know each other."

But instead of "knowing each other" what has religion done? Kill.

"Indeed, the one Allah honors most are those amongst you who are the most righteous."

But instead of being "righteous" what has religion done? Kill.

Isn't it obvious that there is something seriously wrong? And is the wrong only by the opposing religion? Let's be honest about this, it's not.

ALL religion has been corrupted by man. God intended mankind to get along with each other but instead of doing this, they have used their religion to justify their hate for other people.

The Bible and the Koran both contain some truth but sadly, they have been twisted by people who want to justify themselves for doing wrong. And no matter how many times we pray or go to a church or whatever else we think is worship, God is not listening and has his BACK TURNED IN DISGUST if we think we are so righteous, yet are not even trying to do the very first thing He told us to do.

And when people quote the Bible or the Koran saying the opposite to that we should be "knowing each other".. either they have misunderstood what it says, or the Bible or the Koran has been twisted by religious people to justify themselves.. it is up to us to decide which it is. Or does God contradict himself?

This is a test for us. If we are hating people because of our religious pride we "swallow a camel" and have failed the test.

John

5

Can you offer some advice?

by Eyebrow in

my inlaws gave us a really awesome digital video/still camera for xmas.

(it was early) .

anyone out there have any experience with digital video editing software?

jed459

I am new on here so did not see this earlier. Did you get the Adobe stuff? If not, there is some FREE software for editing movies.. the one I use is Tmpg Encoder which is for making mpgs but it also saves to avi. There are a few others too but I find Tmpg Encoder is the best for me.

John

9

Why I left them

by jed459 in

yes, i was a jw.

i was brought up with the c of e, not that this means much of itself.

i was a misfit at school and felt i did not belong and wondered about the meaning of life.

jed459

Thanks for the welcome shelly..

"Smile, because we all have been freed from slavery!!" Well, I am trying...

9

Why I left them

by jed459 in

yes, i was a jw.

i was brought up with the c of e, not that this means much of itself.

i was a misfit at school and felt i did not belong and wondered about the meaning of life.

jed459

Hi Eli-Jah,

hmmm, I guess that means God-Jah,

"Perfection is a dirrection,, are you going to keep going? *grins*"???

You stoned? lol jk ( with more , begging your forgiveness and down at your feet for asking that).

Anyway, the 21st century.. I am dislexic!! I Though it said 12th cnetrury.. er I mean.. century.. lol. Even after I pasted it in it still looked like a 12 and not 21. I must have been tired when I did that.

9

Why I left them

by jed459 in

yes, i was a jw.

i was brought up with the c of e, not that this means much of itself.

i was a misfit at school and felt i did not belong and wondered about the meaning of life.

jed459

Hey, what can be said, been down this road myself, or at least most of it. The truth is revealed when you need it most.

Yes but it took time.. in fact it took years as I was put through the fire. There was a terrible misunderstanding and I was naive and partly to blame, but no-one was man enough to really re-prove me about my mistake.. only judgement without any valid scriptural backup. This showed me that JWs are not as theocratic as they claim, which made it much worse to come to terms with. Yet looking back, it was a good thing because it showed me that I did not belong with them and was a painful truth at the right time.

Your trust (faith) has brought you this far. Remember the Jews had a government from YHWH, NOT a religion. They turned it into a religion and Jesus condemned them for this!

Yes and the same happened to Christianity.. which was at first was "a new and living way" not at a physical temple like religion is.

Heb 10:20 · Acts 7:48-53 · John 4:21

But instead of worship in spirit and in truth, the kingdom became corrupted by leaven and got the demonic "birds of the air" in its branches, as Jesus said it would. Luke 13:18-21

You may want to look at it from a more 21st century view also.

Not very good at history and dates EliJah. What happened in the 21st century?

Besides, it was only a test of your integrity and trust. Your willingness to abandon all else to really go out and find what truth you could. I do see much understanding in these threads. Great wisdom has been given to those that prove worthy and responsible

There are many details I missed out that even now (after over 20 years), are too painful to recall... so "only" is not a word I would use for it. Still, if God did not care I would not have been tested so. I remember saying to an elder "we are all being tested over this" and by the look on his face … he knew. … I do hope that brother came though. If you are reading this, do you remember me Jeff?

Wisdom is not the same as knowledge and as you know, its about applying knowledge in the right way. So I don't know about "great wisdom" and only wish I had more of it.. especially before this began, then I would not have been deceived so easily.

Thanks for your encouraging words Elijah, I am glad to meet you. :)

John.

(re-edit for spelling mistakes)

15

Is there Religion after the Watchtower

by clash_city_rockers in

for those wha have left jehovahs witnesses is there religion after you leave the watch tower?

this is just a survey i would like to hear people share pesonal experiences on the matter.. 1. do you still believe in a god.

2. have you joined another religion.

jed459

1. Do you still believe in a God

Yes but not in the same way.

2. Have you joined another religion

I did but have left them all.

3. Do you still believe in a bible or a Holy book?

Some of it is true but some of it has been tampered with.

4. Are (you?) burned out on religion?

Yes I am done with religion at last.

5. Do you trust others who talk about God, Jesus and religious stuff?

I think many are deluded through religion, but in non-religious matters I trust them no more or less than anyone else.. It depends what the subject is.

6. For you who still believe in a God is your worship corprate or private?

Prayer is private and is said in the heart rather than words, but worship is show in the way we treat others, more than singing or praying in a church.

7. Do you believe in truth?

Yes very much so.

8. Is truth absolute?

Yes but it may not be the same as our perception of reality.

9. Are ethics and morals absolute or relitive and arbratrary?

All those things in a way. They are absolute but there is higher morality over some morals. This is where our conscience comes in.

9

Why I left them

by jed459 in

yes, i was a jw.

i was brought up with the c of e, not that this means much of itself.

i was a misfit at school and felt i did not belong and wondered about the meaning of life.

jed459

Yes, I was a JW. I was brought up with the C of E, not that this means much of itself. I was a misfit at school and felt I did not belong and wondered about the meaning of life. When I was in my teens I went through something spiritual which words cannot explain but I will try. The world is so ugly and hateful, yet some things in nature are so beautiful.. God was talking to me through nature that things were not meant to be as they are. I would go for walks in the countryside to think about things and the contrast between what mankind was doing and what I saw in my walks was so overwhelming that at times I was in tears.

So when the Witnesses came round (I was in my twenties by then), I invited them in and was very keen to learn. After a several years of study I was 100% convinced this was the truth and could 'prove' everything from the bible. I was convinced I had found the paradise I was looking for.. but it turned out that what I had with JWs was not the real truth.. not the meaning of it. I had mistaken ‘knowledge’ for the love of God.

Sadly, I did not find the love that Jesus said would be the mark of a true Christian among any of JWs when put to the test. There was plenty of talk of "Jehovah's righteous requirements" but little of what this means to a Christian (who is not under law).. to have the love (and mind) of Christ… which I now realized is something we cannot have by our own efforts… but is a gift we can never deserve or earn.

There was much emphasis placed on outward appearance both in the way we dress and in the way they think we are seen by the world. We had to put on our best suits and show ourselves to be an exemplary example morally to the world as “Jehovah’s clean people”, but many did not live up to that morality but instead were cold or even cruel and hurtful toward others… yet this was not reproved at all, especially if they held a position in the congregation. If you said anything, you had “a complaining spirit” and were questioning Jehovah’s arrangement or organization.

I saw people get hurt (including myself) and a girl I knew who was brought up a JW, committed suicide by jumping off some high rise flats. She was ‘just’ a friend but it really shook and upset me to think that “one of Jehovah’s happy people” could do this. Then around that time, when I was out “on the doors”, someone I met was very upset and told me how JWs had ruined their daughter’s life. I remember going white and feeling the cold as I thought the unthinkable... that they had literally ruined my friend’s life and I thought of how her mum and dad must have felt about this too. I didn’t want to admit that something was very wrong but my idealism was taking yet another blow.. “God does not do this to these sorts of people” I thought to myself.

Then there was the dishonesty of the Society.. like in the Paradise book I think it was, there were hidden (demonic) drawings within the pictures and this was pointed out at an assembly (convention) and it was said that some people in the art department had been disciplined for it. Yet a few years later the whole thing was denied it ever existed.. it was a false rumour they said. No doubt they quickly reprinted it but in my copy of the book, the hidden drawings were definitely there. It was not the drawings that upset me but that they denied it.

I wasn’t looking for a perfect ‘church’ but found that some people of the world had love which was more Christ-like than that of Jehovah's Witnesses, yet we were taught that the world is so wicked (which it is) and that JWs, because they have their doctrines so right (which the don’t), are in good standing with God… so its implied or even said that JWs are more righteous than people of the world. Do our doctrines themselves make us righteous? No but the JW implies this is so (yet he gets his doctrines second-hand). People in the world are looked on as “bad association” or at best not good association and this caused a barrier with my own family who are not JWs… my family still look on me as different after all these years and we have little contact.

There are many things that I now disagree with in the JWs teachings, but just one of the things that caused me to not take everything the Watchtower teach as being the same as the word of God is when they were saying that Christ will return invisibly at Harmageddon (there’s something behind that!). Nor do I believe that the 144,000 is a literal number, the remnant of which are conveniently said to be in the Watchtower Society, when all the other numbers in Revelation are symbolic… as their own "Aid to Bible Understanding" book showed.

JWs said I would die spiritually if I leave but I found that we do not need a "faithful and discreet slave class" conveniently placed in the WT Society for "spiritual food at the proper time" and although they started me reading the bible I have seen so much more since I left them. I firmly believe that God Himself has led me to the truth not governed by head knowledge and also some ‘truths’ as they would say. But I left mainly because of attitudes toward other people and the way their 'knowledge' is applied rather than any doctrinal teachings. They have a proud "us against them" attitude and the JW's faith is based on performance, not love. They may deny that they are trying to earn salvation but their attitude and practices show otherwise… "by their fruits you will know them."

I was offered paradise like a carrot dangling on a string and didn’t realize that no matter how hard we try, we cannot reach it… but instead of this, it is offered to us by someone who cares and is not playing those cruel games of the demons. The disappointment of not reaching that carrot broke my heart and for a moment I thought I had lost my hope of a future life. So for a while I didn’t want to know anything more about God and the bible but it was buried in the back of my mind.

Several years went by and I became stronger and eventually I returned to the search for “the truth” so I started looking at other religions. I have visited several churches over the years then started attending a Baptist church and enjoyed fellowship with them very much and got baptized (again) at a Pentecostal church. As I was going into the water the Pastor said, “Will you do what Jesus tells you?” and I said “yes”, not realizing that God would lead me away from all religious organizations… Rev 18:4

John