Posts by UnDisfellowshipped

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

djeggnog,

The meaning of Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13-14 is that Jesus is NOT one of the angels who were created by The Father and The Son. The Greek experts agree on this.

Since you yourself admitted that you are NOT a Greek expert, then I would ask you to provide a Greek expert who supports your belief.

If you can provide me with ANY bona fide Biblical Greek expert or scholar who says that Hebrews 1:5 and 1:13-14 are INCLUDING Jesus as being one of the angels, then I will consider that possibility.

Until then, I am sticking with what EVERY SINGLE Greek expert and scholar I have seen has said about those verses: Namely, Jesus is NOT one of those created angels.

Also, can you provide ANY Scriptures which say that a person only becomes a "REAL GOD" when they have immortality, and can you provide ANY Scriptures which say that "Immortality" is THE DEFINING characteristic of being a "REAL GOD" or a "TRUE GOD"?

All the way through the Bible, and especially in Deuteronomy 32, Isaiah chapters 40 through 48, Romans 1:20, 25, and the Book of Revelation, THE DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC of being the TRUE GOD or "REAL GOD" is that He is THE CREATOR, the One God that MADE ALL THINGS.

Nowhere in those verses does it say that "Immortality" is THE DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC.

Jeremiah 10:6, 10-12 (NWT):

In no way is there anyone like you, O Jehovah. You are great, and your name is great in mightiness. ... But Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God and the King to time indefinite. ... This is what YOU men will say to them: “The gods that did not make the very heavens and the earth are the ones who will perish from the earth and from under these heavens.” He is the Maker of the earth by his power, the One firmly establishing the productive land by his wisdom, and the One who by his understanding stretched out the heavens.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

djeggnog:

Why do you feel the need to bring up many, many off-topic things that are irrelevant to this discussion, such as:

* Once Saved, Always Saved is a False Doctrine.

* You must be participating in preaching the Good News in connection with God's "Channel of Communication" in order to be saved.

* People stealing computers.

* Penises.

* Fornication.

* Contradicting yourself and saying that actually, Jesus only requires you to be meek and teachable, and that the truth is not found in "The Channel of Communication"'s publications.

* Posting at least three different posts in this thread which were not much more than an advertising campaign for the Jehovah's Witnesses. (Although, I've got to admit, I enjoyed reading that one post where you said that JW teachings can change every few months and "the truth" they were teaching 6 months ago may no longer be "the truth")

* Disfellowshipping.

* Jesus was a spirit when He was resurrected.

* The "spirit" Jesus spoke of at Luke 24:37-39 was a demon.

What does ANY of that have to do with this topic of the Trinity?

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

Think About It and Podo:

Why do you feel it necessary to use the "ad hominem" (personal attacks) logical fallacy and the "name-calling" logical fallacy and the "straw-man" logical fallacy when attempting to debate with Trinitarians?

If the Biblical evidence and teachings are supporting your beliefs, then why would you ever need to resort to logical fallacies?

So far in this thread, you two have used at least three different logical fallacies instead of actually reasoning or using logic.

You two have also introduced things which are off-topic and are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand (which is, whether the Bible supports the Trinity teaching). These off-topic things include: Whether or not the early church fathers or early Christians taught the Trinity, and when the Trinity was first officially taught by the church, and wicked deeds committed by some who claimed to serve the Holy Trinity. These things have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Bible teaches the Trinity.

These are known as "propaganda" techniques. I suggest you research these logical fallacies on Wikipedia or another Encyclopedia to see how bad and weak your arguments truly are, and how immature they sound.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

For those of you who do NOT believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, this is for you:

* WHY do you believe that Satan the Devil is a person and not an impersonal force?

* WHAT specific characteristics or qualities or actions does the Bible describe Satan as having that convinced you that he is a person?

* Same question for Gabriel and Michael and the angels?

* Same question for demons and the "unclean spirits" in Jesus' day?

Now, if we examine what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit, does the Holy Spirit have the same characteristics as Satan, the demons, or the angels that prove that they are PERSONS and not impersonal forces?

WHY would you believe that Satan, the angels, and demons are all PERSONS, while at the same time teaching that the Holy Spirit is NOT a Person?

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

For those who were asking what the Holy Spirit's Name is (and He does have a Name according to Matthew 28: "Go baptizing in the Name of ... the holy spirit"):

THE HOLY SPIRIT'S NAME IS JEHOVAH (and this is in the New World Translation):

2 Corinthians 3:3, 6, 8, 15-18 (NWT):

For YOU are shown to be a letter of Christ written by us as ministers, inscribed not with ink but with spirit of a living God, not on stone tablets, but on fleshly tablets, on hearts. ... who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive. ... why should not the administering of the spirit be much more with glory? ... In fact, down till today whenever Moses is read, a veil lies upon their hearts. But when there is a turning to Jehovah, the veil is taken away. Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.

The context, as you can clearly see, is speaking about the Holy Spirit. Then the Apostle Paul says at the end "Jehovah is the Spirit", while at the same time, showing a distinction among the different Persons, by also saying "The Spirit of Jehovah."

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

Great point Kenneson!

Along the same lines, Jehovah's Witnesses (and many others) believe that "Wisdom" in Proverbs chapter 8 is the Pre-Human Jesus.

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Proverbs 8:22-25 proves that "Wisdom" was created by God.

But, how could Jehovah's own wisdom have been created?

How could there ever be a time when Jehovah did not have His own wisdom?

And, how could God "create" His own wisdom?

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

In John 1:1, when it says the Logos was "a god" in the BEGINNING with God, what kind of "god" was He?

Remember, John says the Logos was "a god" BEFORE one thing ever came into existence (John 1:3).

So, then, we can rule out that the Logos was "a god" in the sense of being a representative or spokesman of God, because there were NO other creatures to speak to.

According to the Appendix of the New World Translation Reference Bible (as well as the Insight Book, Reasoning Book, and Trinity Brochure), the real meaning of Jesus being called "a god" in John 1:1, is that the Logos has THE SAME DIVINE NATURE AS GOD.

So, according to the New World Translation, The Logos had the SAME DIVINE NATURE as God IN THE BEGINNING.

So, I would love to see djeggnog try to explain that away, claiming the Logos was not a "REAL GOD" until after His resurrection.

So what kind of "god" was He in the beginning? A FAKE GOD? A true God? A half-god? A mini-god?

Or, did the Inspired John choose the WRONG words to descibe the Logos?

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

A gorilla father begets a gorilla son.

An elephant father begets an elephant son.

A peacock father begets a peacock son.

A human father begets a human son.

God the Father begets God the Son.

In each and every case, the father who begets the son, begets a son of the SAME EXACT NATURE.

A gorilla father does NOT beget a peacock son. A human father does NOT beget an elephant son. God the Father does NOT beget a lesser angel son.

God The Father CREATES other types or species, but He can only BEGET the SAME NATURE AS HIMSELF.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

Podo and Think About It:

What does the fact that some Trinitarian believers have acted wickedly have to do with whether the Bible teaches the Trinity?

Also, djeggnog, what difference does it make if the first year it was officially taught was 325 CE?

The teaching about the Great Crowd of Other Sheep was not taught until 1935 CE, and the teaching about 1914 CE was not taught until the late 1800's.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

UnDisfellowshipped

PSacramento,

Thank you for your insightful post! :-)

Tec:

Thank you for your excellent point on John 1:1.

Peacedog:

Outstanding posts as always.

Mkr:

No Trinitarian on this website (that I have seen) has EVER tried to teach that one Person is three Persons. That is a ridiculous belief.

Trinitarians teach that Three Persons share the Divine Nature of being God.

Some Trinitarians also believe that the three DIFFERENT Persons share the same "Family Name" of YHWH/Jehovah.

djeggnog:

I will post a lot more on this thread after I get back from my mini-vacation.