djeggnog,
I apologize if you misunderstood the questions I was asking. I was asking rhetorical questions that Jehovah's Witnesses might ASK those who believe in the Trinity (and in fact some of those questions HAVE BEEN ASKED by JW's and by other non-Trinitarians in this thread).
For example, people have brought up that Jesus could NOT be God Almighty because He is "the Only-Begotten" and He could NOT be God Almighty because He is the "Firstborn of all creation" and He could NOT be God Almighty because He is "the Beginning of the creation by God" and He could NOT be God Almighty because He was praying to God.
So, in those posts, I was addressing THOSE points that were brought up earlier in this thread (not necessarily by you). I did not specifically address those posts to you djeggnog. Those were meant for ALL of those people who have been participating in this thread and have brought up those questions/arguments.
djeggnog said:
"There's nothing about the word "firstborn" as it is used elsewhere in the Bible that suggests a reference to "rank" or "position," so there is no reason for anyone to take a different view of what the word "firstborn" means at Colossians 1:15."
MY REPLY:
In Psalm 89:27 the word "Firstborn" is used as a "rank" or "position." It HAS TO BE a "rank" or "position" in Psalm 89:27 because God is declaring that He will make someone into the "Firstborn" IN THE FUTURE. Psalm 89:27 is NOT referring to someone who WAS A FIRSTBORN in the past.
djeggnog, Who is "The Firstborn, the most high of all the kings of the earth" spoken of at Psalm 89:27?
djeggnog said:
"But this point makes no sense, for the New World Translation -- the Bible translation that you stated at the outset of this thread you would be using to prove that the Bible supports belief in God being a trinity -- does not use the word "worship" at all! Is there a reason you are here violating your own rules here?"
MY REPLY:
When we agreed on the "rules" for this debate, I very clearly stated that I would be using the New World Translation WITH REFERENCES and FOOTNOTES, and that I would also use the Appendixes of the New World Translation.
The NWT Footnote for Hebrews 1:6 says "OR WORSHIP." Also, the older editions of the New World Translation do indeed render the word proskyneo (or a different form of proskyneo) "worship" in Hebrews 1:6.
Either way, call it "worship" or call it "obeisance." The Greek word remains the same. It matters most what the word MEANS. What is the definition of the Greek word proskyneo? (or a different form of proskyneo)
There is NO WAY that we can have an intelligent informed debate or discussion unless we determine WHAT words MEAN.
If you want to say that "Obeisance" only means a lesser form of "worship" and that "Worship" means the fullest form of "worship," then I would ask you to provide a source for how you are determining the MEANINGS of these words.
The New World Translation clearly shows that people gave "Obeisance" to Jehovah God:
2nd Chronicles 20:18 (NWT): At once Jehoshaphat bowed low with his face to the earth, and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem themselves fell down before Jehovah to do obeisance to Jehovah.
Are you trying to say that this "Obeisance" that was given to Jehovah was a lesser or lower form of "worship"?
Also, the Apostle Peter FORBADE Cornelius from doing "Obeisance" to him:
Acts 10:25-26 (NWT): As Peter entered, Cornelius met him, fell down at his feet and did obeisance to him. But Peter lifted him up, saying: “Rise; I myself am also a man.”
Are you trying to say that Cornelius was only bowing down in honor and NOT in worship to Peter? If so, then WHY would Peter have rejected so strongly to the act that Cornelius was performing?
Further, Hebrews 1:6 is a quotation from Deuteronomy 32:43 (from the Septuagint) or Psalm 97:7, and in BOTH of those verses it is saying that WORSHIP is to be given TO JEHOVAH. Yet Hebrews 1:6 applies one (or both) of those passages TO JESUS.
djeggnog said:
Furthermore, God can certainly make a law for human beings that would not have the same "teeth" or would even be "toothless" with regard to the angels of heaven, and, similarly, God can make a law for angelic host that would be totally inapplicable to human beings. For example, whereas it is not unlawful for human beings to engage in sexual relations with someone to whom they have become "one flesh" and procreate, it is unlawful for an angel to engage in sexual relations and procreate with a human being for sexual relations between angels and humans is unnatural. However, a law forbidding an angel to not engage in sexual relations with a human being to whom he is not married would have no teeth and would be totally unnecessary just as a law forbidding a human being from trying to enter the spiritual heavens with his or her flesh-and-blood body would be toothless since this is impossible for a human to do!
MY REPLY:
This is a very interesting argument. I have to hand it to you. You are getting somewhat more creative. By saying that God has a DIFFERENT STANDARD of Exclusive Devotion for humans than He has for angels.
That's funny, because at Matthew 4:10, Jesus was SPEAKING TO AN ANGEL (Satan) when He delcared "‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
Also, the Hebrew Scriptures repeatedly declared that Jehovah was a JEALOUS GOD who TOLERATES NO RIVALRY and that the angels MUST WORSHIP JEHOVAH. Yet, here you are djeggnog, so desperate to cling to your own beliefs, that you have COMPROMISED Jehovah's Exclusive Devotion in order to say that Jesus is not God.
So, are you saying that all of a sudden, when Hebrews 1:6 is fulfilled, Jehovah just sets aside His Exclusive Devotion and Jealousy because it's okay now for angels to worship someone other than Jehovah?
Also, djeggnog, you have never responded to what I said about ALL HUMANS AND ANGELS WORSHIPING THE LAMB AND THE FATHER at Revelation 5:13-14. And you have never responded to what I said about ALL HUMANS rendering sacred service to The Son of Man at Daniel 7:14.
In addition, Jesus commanded ALL PEOPLE to honor The Son JUST AS [or, "to the same degree as"] they honor The Father. "Just as" means "Just Like" or "To the same degree as."
djeggnog said:
"As to the addition of the word "other" used in the NWT, so what? You are supposed to be proving the trinity using the NWT, which Bible includes the word "other" at Colossians 1:16, 17. These were the terms that you set. Deal with it! We're supposed to be discussing what the Bible teaches according to the NWT and not what statements a Bible study aid like the "Reasoning" book or the "Insight" volumes might include in order to clarify what one reads in the Bible. If you cannot follow your own rules, then I'm going to withdraw from this thread."
MY REPLY:
djeggnog, first of all, I did NOT address that post to you.
Secondly, the New World Translation itself shows that those words were NOT inspired original words, because they put them in SQUARE BRACKETS.
Why should we base our arguments on NON-INSPIRED WORDS which were NOT WRITTEN by the Inspired Writers?
djeggnog said:
"it is to Jehovah and not to Jesus that Revelation 22:13 refers."
MY REPLY:
Based on what authority do you say this?
djeggnog said:
"If you are concerned how the title "the First and the Last" could be applied to both Jehovah and Jesus, consider this: At Hebrews 11:24-26, the apostle Paul refers to Moses as the "Christ." You don't have a problem accepting that the leadership of Moses over God's people as God's anointed one was prefigured by Jesus Christ as God's anointed one, do you? At Matthew 17:11, Jesus, in referring to his second cousin, John the Baptist, tells his disciples that "Elijah has already come." You don't have a problem accepting that the ministry of John the Baptist was prefigured by the prophet Elijah, do you? I suspect figures of speech and anything mentioned in the Bible that foreshadows realities haven't really been your forte."
MY REPLY:
First of all, on what authority or basis do you claim that Moses was called "The Christ" at Hebrews 11:24-26. Whenever I read that passage, I have ALWAYS understood it to mean that Moses gave up his material possessions and pleasures in order to pursue THE FUTURE MESSIAH.
What kind of "prefiguring" or "foreshadowing" are you claiming is happening in the SAME BOOK OF REVELATION when in some Verses, Jehovah is called The First and The Last, and in other Verses, Jesus is called The First and The Last?
I suspect reading the Book of Revelation IN CONTEXT hasn't really been your forte.