Posts by Wonderment

9

What is "PRESENT" truth? Who understands the Greek ?

by hamsterbait in

i dont know greek, but cant help wondering what the word "present" in that phrase means.. the borg uses it to mean "what we tell you at this time is true".. i wonder if it means present in the sense of somebody you know being present in the room with you.. "the truth present in our lives" "the truth that is here with us".. just wondering..... hb.

Wonderment

Thank you Leolaia for the excellent summary!

3

Grace vs. Undeserved Kindness

by bats in the belfry in

just doing some research on the wt lib cd - - wow, the balls these people have is just unbearable.. .

is not the new world translation of the christian greek scriptures verbose, for instance, in using catches sight of for sees at 1 john 5:16 and undeserved kindness for grace?j.

s., united states.. .

Wonderment

moggy lover:

The aorist and the subjunctive are dealt variably in translation according to the context. There is quite a bit of leeway in translation. In certain contexts, the aorist is best rendered in a punctiliar sense, in others, with a past tense, and so on. The subjunctive does not always require to use "should," "may," etc. in translation.

This tense and mood have brought many a headache to translators. For instance, at John 17:3, some translators render the Greek, "that they may be knowing you" as an infinitive "to know you." It is possible to do so.

At 1 John 5:16, one could say it is not modern English to render it literally: "If ever anyone should see the brother of him sinning..." The expression "If anyone catches sight of his brother sinning" brings out the aorist subjunctive well, in my opinion. Moffat expresses this way: "If anyone notices his brother committing a sin..." Other translators read: "If anyone sees his brother sinning..." All of these readings view the condition as a possibility, without having to use "should," etc. It is virtually impossible to translate aorist subjunctives exactly the same way in a modern translation.

9

What is "PRESENT" truth? Who understands the Greek ?

by hamsterbait in

i dont know greek, but cant help wondering what the word "present" in that phrase means.. the borg uses it to mean "what we tell you at this time is true".. i wonder if it means present in the sense of somebody you know being present in the room with you.. "the truth present in our lives" "the truth that is here with us".. just wondering..... hb.

Wonderment

The Greek expression for "present truth" is: te paroúse aletheía, which can be translated literally as: the being beside truth; the being present truth; the present truth.

The second word in the Gr. expression paroúse is related to parousía which we being taught in the KH that it means "presence." Both paroúse and parousía are related to páreimi which basically means, (from pará, beside and eimí, be). Various versions below can help us understand the expression:

ISV: Therefore, I intend to keep on reminding you about these things, even though you already know them and are firmly established in the truth that you now have.

Darby: Wherefore I will be careful to put you always in mind of these things, although knowing them and established in the present truth.

Weymouth: For this reason I shall always persist in reminding you of these things, although you know them and are stedfast believers in truth which you already possess.

Young's: Wherefore, I will not be careless always to remind you concerning these things, though, having known them, and having been established in the present truth,

NSB: I will always be ready to remind you of these things. Even though you know them, and are established in the truth that is present with you.

21st Cent: "...in the truth as presently revealed."

Twentieth Cent: "...in the Truth that you now hold."

Vincent's Word Studies: In the present truth (ε?ν τη?? παρου´ση? α?ληθει´α?)

i.e., the truth which is present with you through the instruction of your teachers; not the truth at present under consideration. See on 2 Peter 1:9; and compare the same phrase in Colossians 1:6, rendered, is come unto you.

Barnes' Notes: And be established in the present truth - That is, the truth which is with you, or which you have received - Robinson's Lexicon on the word πα´ρειμι pareimi. The apostle did not doubt that they were now confirmed in the truth as far as it had been made known to them, but he felt that amidst their trials, and especially as they were liable to be drawn away by false teachers, there was need of reminding them of the grounds on which the truths which they had embraced rested, and of adding his own testimony to confirm their Divine origin. Though we may be very firm in our belief of the truth, yet there is a propriety that the grounds of our faith should be stated to us frequently, that they may be always in our remembrance. The mere fact that at present we are firm in the belief of the truth, is no certain evidence that we shall always continue to be; nor because we are thus firm should we deem it improper for our religious teachers to state the grounds on which our faith rests, or to guard us against the arts of those who would attempt to subvert our faith.

35

At long last - Six Screens of the Watchtower website now Open!

by Incognito in

jw
friends

hi everybody.. i've been a long time lurker here (as are sooo many others.

further to following mouthy's thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/129936/1.ashx , i noticed that the 'six screens' website is finally shown as being able to be 'checked out'.. i believe minimus first posted about this some months back.

some here have been waiting & asking about it ever since.. http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com.

Wonderment

Proceed with caution!

As someone stated, I found the website "overdone" and inaccurate. I don't mind error exposure of the WT (heck I enjoyed Ray Franz' and J. Penton's books), but this is not something I can label as "reliable."

For instance, the site's treatment of John 1:1 is unfair and totally one-sided, factwise. Ex-JWs deserve more respect. Go elsewhere for criticism.

49

What are the best Bible Translations?

by Londo111 in

growing up in a jw family, my parents and my grandparents had many versions of the bible...not just the new world translation.

sometimes i read these.

but i always bought the hype that the new world translation was the most unbiased and most consistent in rendering hebrew and greek into the modern language.

Wonderment

Londo111 asked: "So...what modern translations are the best? Which are free from preconceived doctrines? Which have the most consistent renderings? Which have the most accredited translators who know ancient Hebrew and Greek?"

Which are free from preconconceived doctrines?

None! No one translator is totally free of personal bias.

Which have the most accredited translators who know ancient Hebrew and Greek?

It doesn't matter as much as many are led to believe. The "most accredited translators" will not necessarily produce the best translation. Of course, a good knowledge of the ancient biblical languages is necessary, but general "attitude" and the level of "dogmatism" displayed is just as important in translation work. When I mention "attitude," I refer to the translator's disposition toward truth and fairness to potential readers, how "open" is the translator to other views.

One common mistake many folks make at the time of selecting a Bible translation is to choose only the ones that agree with what they are inclined to believe. For instance, a JW that only uses the NWT and rejects others is not going to get the full benefit of Bible translation work. Those Evangelicals who only choose to use versions that are "conservative" in line with their preconceived views would also fail to see other equally valid views, etc.

Thus, I recommend to at least get a few Bible versions of various denominations in order to keep a more balanced, open approach. That is, get some Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and any other versions you can get your hands on. Of course, keeping the NWT and the Kingdom Interlinear helps in this matter.

18

KIT availability

by Joey Jo-Jo in

i have questions about this book:.

is it still able to be ordered at the counter?.

would this be a book that many people that are currently jw's aware of?.

Wonderment

Just to be sure, are you referring to the Kingdom Interlinear Translation?

If so, I heard it is out of print. Not sure is still available.

11

Blog - Jehovah's Witnesses and (Academic) Dialogue with Non-Members at the Society of Biblical Literature?

by Mickey mouse in

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-gilmour/jehovahs-witnesses-and-ac_b_987545.html.

excerpt (bold added):.

intrigued by this gap in the scholarly conversation about contemporary uses of the bible, i recently proposed an sbl session examining the watch tower bible and tract society's use of scripture.

Wonderment

Mr. Gilmour makes some interesting observations in this article. I also appreciate his respectful tone in approaching the subject of one seeking dialogue with WT insiders on religious subjects and getting frustrated by not getting meaningful "conversations" with them.

14

Curious: How Does 1 Tim 6:4 Appear in the Interlinear Greek (aka "purple bible")?

by DarioKehl in

we've all seen the line-by-line comparison of john 1:1 with the addition of "a god" when "was god" is visible in the left margin under "theos" in the infamous grimace/barney/grape crush purple bible book.

i'd check for myself, but unfortunately, i hastily rid my house of all things wt in a purging fit while beginning my fade.

and let me tell you, the fire was spectacular!

Wonderment

Even though I made a previous observation as to the meaning of the Greek word rendered "mentally diseased" in the NWT, I do not approve of the application the WT Society is making of the Greek term to those who disagree with the Society.

It is wrong for the WT to suggest that anyone not agreeing with their organization is "mentally diseased," even if the Greek term allows for such translation. It is the application of 1 Timothy 6:4 to those who have left their organization for not believing everything they teach which is wrong.

14

Curious: How Does 1 Tim 6:4 Appear in the Interlinear Greek (aka "purple bible")?

by DarioKehl in

we've all seen the line-by-line comparison of john 1:1 with the addition of "a god" when "was god" is visible in the left margin under "theos" in the infamous grimace/barney/grape crush purple bible book.

i'd check for myself, but unfortunately, i hastily rid my house of all things wt in a purging fit while beginning my fade.

and let me tell you, the fire was spectacular!

Wonderment

Correction... cognate:

"In classical Greek the noun nosos and the cognate verb noseo are used primarily in connection with illness. It can also be used generally of ‘distress, anguish’ and figuratively of character defects and mental illness." (TCBL, Hebrew-English Dictionary)

14

Curious: How Does 1 Tim 6:4 Appear in the Interlinear Greek (aka "purple bible")?

by DarioKehl in

we've all seen the line-by-line comparison of john 1:1 with the addition of "a god" when "was god" is visible in the left margin under "theos" in the infamous grimace/barney/grape crush purple bible book.

i'd check for myself, but unfortunately, i hastily rid my house of all things wt in a purging fit while beginning my fade.

and let me tell you, the fire was spectacular!

Wonderment

Interestingly, the Portuguese NWT edition translates 1 Tim. 6:4 this way:

"ele está enfunado [de orgulho], não entendendo nada, mas tendo mania de criar questões e debates sobre palavras."

A translation into English would be something like this: "he is puffed up [with pride], not understanding anything, but having mania [obsession, delusions, craze] of creating questions and debates about words."

A related term to Portuguese "mania" is "mental illness."

Some English translations used for the Greek word, noson are:

doting, morbid, morbid interest, morbid appetite, morbid fondness, morbid craving, morbid passion, sick, touch'd with a spirit of chicanery and wrangling, delirious, infirm, a sickly longing, an itch, unhealthy concern,unhealthy craving, obsessed, driven mad, etc.

"In classical Greek the noun nosos and the congate verb noseo are used primarily in connection with illness. It can also be used generally of ‘distress, anguish’ and figuratively of character defects and mental illness." (TCBL, Hebrew-English Dictionary)

"Noseo signifies 'to be ill, to be ailing,' whether in body or mind..." (Vine's)

"The use of noseo in 1 Tim. 6:4 corresponds to the Hel. usage of the vb. Craving for controversy and disputes about words point to a sick condition in the inner self." (N.I. Dictionary of NT Theology)