Posts by Wonderment

20

New World Translation Assaults on Language and Phrases that Always Wigged Me Out!

by DarioKehl in

i listened to the august 4th episode of the healingxjws podcast where they interviewed a former jw circuit overseer.

he shared many great examples of how original meanings (especially poetry) were lost in this terrible translation.

it's worth listening to.

Wonderment

Leolaia:

I could not agree with you more. The NWT is not pleasant overall to read page after page.

But because it's so unique, it has its place as a Study Bible (my opinion). The translation challenges many common views, and introduces many refreshing thoughts throughout the rendered text. Of course, I realize that is why many here and elsewhere dislike it.

One thing that I found striking when reading Bible reviews of various versions (by the like of Lewis, Kubo/Specht, etc.), is that if a person were to focus on one of their chapters dealing with any of the many versions and its oddities, he or she could walk away with the "godawful" impression that that specific version fails the test. Granted, the NWT perhaps beats them all in the oddity department, but my point is that those same reviewers could take the positive renderings of any of those versions and produce a more estimulating experience.

So, Leolaia, out of curiosity, have you ever come up with a list of NWT favorable renderings, if any? If so, could you share such a list with us?

20

New World Translation Assaults on Language and Phrases that Always Wigged Me Out!

by DarioKehl in

i listened to the august 4th episode of the healingxjws podcast where they interviewed a former jw circuit overseer.

he shared many great examples of how original meanings (especially poetry) were lost in this terrible translation.

it's worth listening to.

Wonderment

dropoffyourkeylee said: "Here's one that always irked me:

John 5:30, "I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me", where the wording should be "him who sent me". At least that is what I was taught in every English class, if it refers to a person the word should be 'who'. The NW translator did this repeatedly, especially in John:

John 3:36,5:30,5:32, 6:45, 7:16,8:26, as well as Matt 5:28.

You would think they could at least gotten the English grammar right."

Did you check John 5:30 in the NWT against these others?:

Wycliffe NT; Douay-Rheims Bible; Darby Translation; American Standard Version; Rotherham Translation, to name a few. Either the NWT translators were influenced by these older versions, or else, influenced by the Greek construction there (articular verbal participle aorist with a noun/adjectival force). [Literally: "...but the will of the (one)having sent me."]

On another subject, in translating "my breasts are like towers, the NWT is not alone doing so, since that is the Hebrew reading. This well illustrates the disparity of languages, and the difficulty the Bible translator faces when having to choose between the original, and modern paraphrases to bring the writer's message across. The versions below communicate easier to modern readers, but the Hebrew analogies are lost. It's your choice. I like both.

The Message Bible: "my breasts are full." Living Bible: "full breasted." Clear Word: "now I'm grown."

16

Does the Watchtower still print the "Kingdom Interlinear Translation" book?

by Resistance is Futile in

jw
friends

it was last updated in 1985. does the watchtower still print it?

could a jw place an order for one at the kingdom hall?.

Wonderment

I agree with Bobcat that "The Word Study Greek-English New Testament" by Paul R. McReynolds is the one to buy.

It and the Kingdom Interlinear Translation, in my opinion, are the most useful of the bunch. Most of the other interlinears are of little use, compared with these two.

I disagree with Bobcat, though, on the issue of Luke 23:43: I don't think the NWT Committee was obliged to follow the comma placement of the WH Greek Text. There was no punctuation in the original manuscripts, so WH used their theological judgment on that one, and the NWT Committee did the same. It is not a matter of dishonesty, it is a matter of interpretation. It is not unusual for Bible translators to deviate from the Greek Text they follow at times. It is standard practice. In many cases they acknowledge so with footnotes or other, like the KIT did at Lu 23:43.

7

Does anyone know who Ray Franz wrote this letter to? The date?

by Wonderment in

the letter (copy below) was submitted by pixies on 8/13/2006 on page 2 of link below:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/118479/2/a-fair-view-of-fred-franz-translation-abilities .

here is some further observations by ray franz in response to a question regarding his uncle fw franz-s translating abilities:.

Wonderment

Oops!

Thank you SISTER!

7

Does anyone know who Ray Franz wrote this letter to? The date?

by Wonderment in

the letter (copy below) was submitted by pixies on 8/13/2006 on page 2 of link below:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/118479/2/a-fair-view-of-fred-franz-translation-abilities .

here is some further observations by ray franz in response to a question regarding his uncle fw franz-s translating abilities:.

Wonderment

Thanks jamiebowers!

I appreciate your effort and response. God bless you brother!

7

Does anyone know who Ray Franz wrote this letter to? The date?

by Wonderment in

the letter (copy below) was submitted by pixies on 8/13/2006 on page 2 of link below:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/118479/2/a-fair-view-of-fred-franz-translation-abilities .

here is some further observations by ray franz in response to a question regarding his uncle fw franz-s translating abilities:.

Wonderment

jamiebowers:

Excuse me, but I could not find the above letter in that link. What I did find was a heavy distortion of facts, and outright lies. That is not a reliable site at all.

7

Does anyone know who Ray Franz wrote this letter to? The date?

by Wonderment in

the letter (copy below) was submitted by pixies on 8/13/2006 on page 2 of link below:.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/118479/2/a-fair-view-of-fred-franz-translation-abilities .

here is some further observations by ray franz in response to a question regarding his uncle fw franz-s translating abilities:.

Wonderment

The letter (copy below) was submitted by Pixies on 8/13/2006 on page 2 of link below:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/118479/2/A-Fair-View-of-Fred-Franz-Translation-Abilities

Here is some further observations by Ray Franz in response to a question regarding his uncle FW Franz-s translating abilities:

"... Fred Franz studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati, with high marks, and continued his studies personally thereafter. One need only read the critical notes accompanying the New World Translation to see the extent of his knowledge of Biblical Greek and its grammar. He was self-taught in Hebrew. However, knowing him personally I am satisfied that he was capable of developing a thorough knowledge of the language. He was unusually mentally disciplined. He taught himself Spanish, a language I spoke in Spanish-speaking countries for nearly 20 years. While in Brooklyn, I associated with a Spanish-speaking congregation that he attended. I heard his use of the language both there and, previously, in Spanish speaking countries. Whether in conversational expressions or in public talks that he gave in Spanish I did not once hear him make a single grammatical error. He similarly learned Portuguese and gave talks in that language. He knew German from his childhood (his father having been born in Germany).

On one occasion, while in Cincinnati, I took Fred Franz ( he himself did not drive) to a Hebrew museum which he knew contained a particular Biblical Hebrew manuscript that he wished to research. I stood alongside him while he read through the portions of the Hebrew text he wished to investigate. While working on the Watch Tower’s Bible dictionary Aid to Bible Understanding., on more than one occasion I had to seek out his assistance with reference to Hebrew renderings. He was always able to supply the needed information. In 1971, on a trip to Israel, we visited the Watch Tower’s branch office located in Haifa. A member of the staff there, Dalia Erez, a young Jewish woman, native to the country, did Hebrew translation of the organization’s publications. She spent part of one day discussing with Fred Franz certain translation problems she was experiencing and received his assistance and recommendations. She clearly found his knowledge of Hebrew solid.

His knowledge of Hebrew was not equal to his knowledge of Greek and he was not an advanced or notable Hebrew scholar but his knowledge was sufficient to produce a creditable translation.

Sincerely,

Ray. (end quote) He seems generally miffed that so many people (usually dubious Evangelicals) incorrectly use his footnote in his book to state FW Franz had zero knowledge of Greek, or that he was wholly incapable of makng a translation.

A question for member "Pixies"

by Wonderment in

pixies: some five years ago you posted a letter on the following subject:.

"here is some further observations by ray franz in response to a question regarding his uncle fw franz-s translating abilities: [...letter...].".

i would like to know if you or someone else here know who was the recipient of this letter.. i would appreciate any input on the matter..

Wonderment

Pixies: Some five years ago you posted a letter on the following subject:

"Here is some further observations by Ray Franz in response to a question regarding his uncle FW Franz-s translating abilities: [...Letter...]."

I would like to know if you or someone else here know who was the recipient of this letter.

I would appreciate any input on the matter.

105

2012 Convention Releases

by garlic81 in

jw
friends

post 51 of 52. since 3/27/2009.

google_ad_section_start i can't verify the authenticity of this information as i have not personally attended.

however this is what is posted on another site.. friday:.

Wonderment

Juan Viejo 2:

For the most part, I agree with your observations. I will like to further add that the WTS is very aware that the NWT English is awkward for slavishly following the original languages.

At one time, they replied to Bible translator Steven T.Byington who criticized that very thing, and said to him:

" The translation it produced was meant not merely for good, enjoyable reading but more particularly for use of searching students of God's Word who do not have ready access to Greek dictionaries and exhaustive Bible concordances. […] All in all, the New World Translation shows nothing loose, careless or indifferent about it. It commends itself to those who want to attain a more precise understanding of the inspired writings of Christ's disciples, and thereby to delight themselves more in God's life-giving Word.” “The Christian Century,” May 9, 1951, pp. 587–589 )

The example you cited about the NWT saying: "Jehovah, he himself will..." instead of "Jehovah will..." is a clear instance of the translators wanting to emphasize the original language more than trying to produce a more readable English translation.That is specially noticeable in the Hebrew portion of Scripture.

So I doubt they will rewrite the translation to compete with the NIVs, JBs, TEV, etc. Smooth English is secondary to them. Surprisingly, the NWT translators came up with some more natural renderings at times than did the competition.

105

2012 Convention Releases

by garlic81 in

jw
friends

post 51 of 52. since 3/27/2009.

google_ad_section_start i can't verify the authenticity of this information as i have not personally attended.

however this is what is posted on another site.. friday:.

Wonderment

Slimboyfat said: "Do they have anyone who is capable of revising the NWT?"

If they feel there is a need for updating their translation, they WILL find someone capable of revising the NWT, even if they had to pay an outsider to do it. We would never get to know the intimate details of any of their projects.

There are some on this board, who believe the WTS never had anyone capable for the translation project, or that the Society cannot come up with someone competent to revise their version, but that is not likely. While some scholars hate the NWT (Read: W. Martin, Julius Mantey, Barclay), other scholars who reviewed the NWT never questioned their competence, they just questioned some of their translation choices. It is mostly Evangelicals and some ex-Witnesses spreading this FUD of NWT incompetence.

By the way, I am an ex-Witness. Over 20 years now, away, and have never stepped back to a Kingdom Hall or Convention, nor would I want to. But, if a new revised edition of the NWT gets published, I will certainly check it out with the same scrutiny I pay other Bible translations.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/48234022/Did-the-New-World-Translation-Committee-Know-Any-Greek