Wonderment

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Posts by Wonderment

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  21

  Updates and fixes

  by Simon in

  1. forum
  2. announcements

  i thought i'd spend some time cleaning up the forum code and wanted to let you know about some of the recent changes and fixes:.

  the avatars and in-post images used to use a separate imaging service which was convenient but didn't provide much control over caching which meant that each day you visited the site you were probably re-downloading those images again.

  as they are immutable they can be cached for a long time which saves bandwidth and speeds things up.

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  Wonderment

  Thanks cofty for the tip!
  
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  21

  Updates and fixes

  by Simon in

  1. forum
  2. announcements

  i thought i'd spend some time cleaning up the forum code and wanted to let you know about some of the recent changes and fixes:.

  the avatars and in-post images used to use a separate imaging service which was convenient but didn't provide much control over caching which meant that each day you visited the site you were probably re-downloading those images again.

  as they are immutable they can be cached for a long time which saves bandwidth and speeds things up.

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  Wonderment

  Thanks for your many efforts in improving this website!

  Can we get an option to employ underlines?
  
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  16

  JW as a secret society - a weak link in the Information Age.

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in the late 1990s there was magazine article that asked the question, are jws a secret society?

  obviously they said no, because they claim to be transparent to outsiders and new members.

  but they really are not transparent at all.

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  Wonderment

  Interesting subject!

  The WT Society has to be one of the most (if not the most) secretive organizations on earth.

  Somehow, by going secret combined with sleazy shunning practices, they keep most remaining Witnesses in awe of this "wonderful" "divine" organization. As you noted, the Information Age is undoing a lot of their dirty secrets.

  When I disassociated from the organization over two decades ago, I kept photocopies of the Elder's book. Just in case. Guess what! Only used it twice to check two relevant organizational procedures in all that time. Now the book is obsolete, useless for the most part.

  As an outsider now, I see the whole organization enchilada as a turn-off. Some of those irrational rules are turning more people away in some places that they bring in. The "overlapping generation" concept is an insult to current members.The revised NWT mentions the date 1914 within its pages. Yes! That's irrational! Why keep an unproven chronology date in a Bible that is supposed to be free of religious bias? And so on!

  Ludicrous! The WTS needs to get educated people at the top in order to lead uneducated followers below. I feel sorry for those WT writers who have to endure the most dissonance in religious interpretation anywhere.
  
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  37

  Just realized they changed maybe the most important scripture in the bible.

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i just read the scripture then went and checked in thier older bible and it read the same so i check the greek interlinear and yes they changed john 3:16 .

  the verse reads "all who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life" the cult version says "exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life".. so not only do they say one must exercise faith meaning having to work for it but also they changed should not perish but having everlasting life to might not be destroyed again making a caveat where one does not exist.

  just to add to the point verse 18 in both bibles says the one having faith is not judged, totally blowing up thier version of 16 but of course they change 18 to say exercising faith too but it makes little difference, since it says not judged.

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  Wonderment

  Half banana:
  

  Martin Luther was wrong! It is perfectly easy to distinguish faith from the works associated with faith. In the absence of other translators rendering the text in question as “exercising faith” as opposed to “believe,” I conclude that in this instance the JW org have doctored the translation to suit their own interests. It thereby becomes a snub to the “just believe in Jesus” movements. JWs very much want to tell you that they have the works to show that they are doing a worldwide preaching work.

  I don't think that by Martin Luther saying, "It is impossible, indeed, to separate works from faith" he meant that religious groups ought to emphasize works over faith as a means of acceptance, and to be saved. As a Protestant reformer, Luther held that salvation / eternal life are not earned by good works but are received only as the free gift of God's grace through the believer's faith in Christ Jesus as redeemer from sin. I think his purpose was to advise Christians against a laid back lifestyle, thus he wrote that "faith is not inert."
  

  So I take his comments within the above context. I agree with you that some religious organizations like the WT emphasize their kind of "works" over true Christian faith, which is clearly wrong.
  

  At the other extreme, some Christians seek to stay away from any Christian responsibility from their daily conduct. To prove the WTS wrong, they fall in the trap that all you got to do is simply "believe" intellectually that Jesus is Savior. These individuals may point to Acts 16.31, where Paul and Silas told the jailer, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" when the jailer asked them: ‘What must I do to be saved?’" In the Greek language used here, "believe" appears in aoristic mode (punctiliar action), so many have concluded that for Christian salvation, all one needs to do is ‘acknowledge’ Christ as one's Savior. What they don't realize, is that acknowledging Christ as Savior is the FIRST step one must take in a life-long course of godly worship. One must endure till the end. Otherwise, all those Scriptures extolling endurance and fine Christian living would be empty in meaning.

  In John, we are told that one must "believe" (a word related to "faith") that Christ is the Son of God, and God's savior to the world. As noted in my previous post, the word "believe" appears as a present participle with the article (Lit., "the believing into him"), leading scholars to explain here, that "faith is sought of as an activity," especially denoting the exercise of saving faith."

  
  If ‘faith is an activity,’ and one can ‘exercise saving faith,’ at John 3.16, therefore translations that indicate so are not too far from the author's intention in transmitting that Christians must be actively obedient to Christ, fully trusting and relying on Him. "Active faith" is the opposite of "inert faith" which Luther warned us against.

  This is not to say that "exercising faith" is the best translation possible of the Greek word at hand, but one must ask why is there so much aversion to the thought of such activity in one's Christian life? Dislike of the WT Society (I am with you there) need not transform into the same dislike for the thought transmitted by a Bible version mentioned on my previous post:

  "For God loved the world so much, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever has an active faith in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
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  37

  Just realized they changed maybe the most important scripture in the bible.

  by Crazyguy in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i just read the scripture then went and checked in thier older bible and it read the same so i check the greek interlinear and yes they changed john 3:16 .

  the verse reads "all who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life" the cult version says "exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life".. so not only do they say one must exercise faith meaning having to work for it but also they changed should not perish but having everlasting life to might not be destroyed again making a caveat where one does not exist.

  just to add to the point verse 18 in both bibles says the one having faith is not judged, totally blowing up thier version of 16 but of course they change 18 to say exercising faith too but it makes little difference, since it says not judged.

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  Wonderment

  steve2 wrote: I do agree that there is nothing in the Koine Greek which supports the NWT translators' rendering of the word "to believe in" as "exercising faith". I wonder: Is there even one other translation in existence besides the NWT that renders the word into an active verb?

  Steve: As far as I know, there is no other version which reads exactly as the NWT does in John 3.16. On the other hand, the use of "believing" in the Greek sometimes means a lot more than simply acknowledging a fact, such as ‘Jesus is Savior’ in John 3.16. The context of the verse implies that ‘believing’ requires ‘obedience’ to Christ. The ASV reads at John 3.36: "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him." On verse 18 of this chapter,The McArthur Study Bible explains: “The phrase (lit., ‘to believe into the name’ [of v. 18]) means more than mere intellectual assent to the claims of the gospel. It includes trust and commitment to Christ as Lord and Saviour, which results in receiving a new nature (v. 7) that produces a change in heart and obedience to the Lord...” (Sublines added throughout)
  

  Likewise, of the phrase ‘believes... does not believe’ of verse 18, the NIV states: “John is not speaking of momentary beliefs and doubts but of continuing, settled convictions.” And the Recovery Version: “Believing into the Lord is not the same as believing Him (6:30). To believe Him is to believe that He is true and real, but to believe into Him is to receive Him and be united with Him as one. The former [6:30] is to acknowledge a fact objectively; the latter [3:16] is to receive a life subjectively.”

  The way the Greek is phrased (Lit., "the believing into him") suggest this. An Introductory Grammar of New Testament Greek, by Paul Kaufman notes: “Another construction which is common in the New Testament (especially in John's Gospel) is πιστεύω [pi·steu'o] with εἰς [eis] and the accusative case [as found at John 3:16] . . . The whole construction of εἰς [eis] plus the accusative must be translated rather than attempting to translate the preposition εἰς [eis] as an isolated word. Faith is thought of as an activity, as something men do, i.e. putting faith into someone. John uses this construction thirty-six (36) times.” (Page 46, Section 93)

  So too, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics says concerning pisteuo (everyone who believes [into]) specifically as found at John 3:16:
  "The idea seems to be both gnomic and continual: ‘everyone who continually believes.’ This is not due to the present tense only, but to the use of the present participle of [pisteúo]." (Daniel B. Wallace, Zondervan Publ., 1996, p. 620)

  The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (pisteúo) adds: “(1) as primarily an intellectual evaluation believe […] (2) as primarily a religious commitment, especially with God or Christ as the object of faith believe (in), trust [...] especially denoting the exercise of saving faith, with the object expressed by using [eis] or [epí] and the accusative, believe in or on (JN 3.16; AC 9.42) […] (3) as committing something to someone entrust, trust (LU 16.11); passive, as having something committed to someone be entrusted with [from pisteúo] (RO 3.2).” (Friberg, Friberg - Miller)

  Because of the presence of a present participle in the verse, the Analytical Literal Translation translates: “every [one] believing [or, trusting] in Him” (Brackets his.) So the idea is brought out by the Amplified Bible, Classic Edition: “everyone who believes in Him [who cleaves to Him, trusts Him, and relies on Him].” (Brackets theirs.)
  

  Other versions:
  

  NSB: “that whoever has an active faith in him”

  Jonathan Mitchell: “...the one habitually believing and trusting into Him.”

  The Simple English Bible: “Every person who commits himself to Jesus will not be destroyed”

  Kenneth S. Wuest: “everyone who places his trust in Him”

  Martin Luther tells us: "It is impossible, indeed, to separate works from faith, just as it is impossible to separate heat and light from fire. [...] Faith is not an inert thing." (Preface of the Epistle to the Romans as quoted in Martin Luther, selections from his writings, Doubleday Publishing, 1961, pp. 24 & 33).

  Thus, the notion of "believing into," "placing trust in," putting faith in," or "exercising faith" in Christ is not incongruous with the gospel message or with Greek usage.
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  41

  Why the Deficit at the Circuit Assembly?

  by JT-LadyC in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  have you ever wondered why there is always a deficit at the circuit assembly?

  did you realize that before the program begins, the circuit is already in the red?

  many of the friends thought they were paying for the use of the building and covering the costs of the utilities, etc.

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  Wonderment

  There are two certain things in life: death and taxes.

  That's not right! Let me correct that: There are THREE certain things in life:

  Death, taxes, and now, deficits in JW circuit assemblies.
  
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  24

  The official relationship between Jehovahs Witnessses and the Watchtower? I'm confused.

  by Joliette in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  can anybody answer this for me?.

  whenever i tell people i'm ex jehovahs witnesses, they always assume that i'm against the jehovahs witnesses, but i am more so against the watchtower then anything.people assume that i'm anti-jehovahs witness, but now that i've done more research i've realized that its the watchtower thats more harmful then the jehovahs witnesses, even though theres a lot of jehovahs witnesses i dont like, i'm not against jehovahs witnesses as a group.. can anyone explain this to me?.

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  Wonderment

  Joliette: "There's a lot of confusion when it comes to this. I always tell my brother I'm against the watchtower but he thinks I'm against Jehovah."

  The WT Society has been very successful in deceiving its followers with the belief that putting your trust in "the faithful and discreet slave" is the same as placing faith in Jehovah. Not true! These two are totally different things.

  It is the authoritative and unyielding nature of the WT Society that makes it despicable to all those being victimized by its un-Christian practices.

  It is not God's fault that this religious entity does not follow Christian practices as they claim. And the JWs are just gullible victims of the superior cunning of its leaders. They have been blinded by ‘the god of this system of things, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ...might not shine through.’ (2 Cor 4.4)

  Instead of ‘the glorious good news about the Christ shining through’ to them, what they get is ‘the ominous news of the faithful and discreet slave shining through’...that those who independently worship God without them are doomed.
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  27

  I am losing

  by NoMoreHustle in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i haven't posted anything for a bit, but wanted to express how i am losing this battle.

  it has been over 3 years now since i woke up about watchtower.

  the battle that i am talking about is the tug of war with my wife (i adore her immensely), watchtower is winning, she simply will not give in to my so-called negative thoughts about the religion that we are in.

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  Wonderment

  It is very likely that no matter how much you try to convince her out of the WT religion, she will stay put. Leave her alone. Let her worship the way she thinks is right. As long as she doesn't force you to go along, you both will be better off.

  When someone is fully convinced of something, such one will likely not let go unless something drastic happens in their life. When you least expected, your wife may perhaps go through her own bad experience with someone there, or with a drastic change the Society implements, making her rethink her allegiance. Time also can do what you may not. People often do change with the passing of time.

  Best wishes to you!
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  18

  Can I pick up a New World Translation from the JW London head office?

  by Camperdown9 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i'm an anglican and not a jehovahs witness.

  what i dislike about lots of church congregations is their readiness to make unpleasant and unhelpful comments about other christian groups.

  recently someone in a church tried to tell me a little about the views of jehovahs witnesses.

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  Wonderment

  Camperdown9: "I'm an Anglican and not a Jehovahs Witness. What I dislike about lots of church congregations is their readiness to make unpleasant and unhelpful comments about other Christian groups."

  I agree with you there.

  However, asking most ex_JWs how they feel about the religion, will most likely get you a flood of the most disparaging criticisms one could ever come up with.

  I too have a problem with the religion. I have been victimized for abandoning the JW religion. My family have deserted me. Nevertheless, I can still see some of the good things they do well. I venture to say that every group of believers do some things right and many things wrong. The JWs are no exception. A main problem with the JWs has to do with their shunning policies, and the control the leadership exerts over their followers. In that sense, the JWs are a dangerous religion.
  

  About the NWT, there are all sorts of opinions about it, mostly bad. But I feel those people who put it down so harshly reflect their own religious bias as well. Someone here said of the JW Bble that, "Their New World Translation is just a copy of another translation that has been a altered to fit JW theology." The first part of this statement is simply not true. The burden is on the person to prove such allegation. On the second part of the statement, I agree that the NWT has been adapted to fit JW theology. What a lot of people fail to realize though, is that just about every Bible translation out there has been adapted to fit the theology of the translators, whoever they may be. This outcome is often not deliberate, but a consequence of their educational background.
  

  I am glad to see someone open enough to query others about another faith. In the end, I advise anyone to be careful of whatever claims any religious group make of other faiths, and be willing to analyze different opinions on the matter before reaching a personal conclusion.

  Good wishes!
  
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  46

  Any weapons enthusiasts here?

  by Wonderment in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i knew i had a couple of firearms around the house, and one in the car.

  however, i didn't realize i had seven, yes, seven of them, when i proceeded to count them.

  the reason for that is that i haven't gone to the shooting range in years.

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  Wonderment

  Thanks talesin for the quick response!