came across this interesting expose' on some of the occultic influences that took place during the watchtowers creation.
the implications are very interesting.. .
i had never heard about their use of phrenology...but apparently they believed it to be true.
This is a weak argument against WT and JWs. In the 1800s, phrenology was considered scientific not spiritual. Even now, it carries little connotation of the supernatural or mystical.
Wikipedia's current article on phrenology doesn't even use the words "occult" or "spirit".
*** w72 4/1 p. 200 they shall know that a prophet was among them' ***.
yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a "prophet" of jehovah was among them.
actually now more than a million and a half persons are helping that collective or composite "prophet" in his preaching work and well over that number of others are studying the bible with the "prophet" group and its companions..
Again, this argument is weak. There are better anti-JW arguments that don't dishonestly pretend that JWs claim miraculous foreknowledge. Since the 1800's WT publications have repeatedly said they're not inspired and are not gifted with miraculous foreknowledge.
JWs claim to be a collective "prophet" based on their extraordinary global effort to "prophesy", a term they EXPLICITLY interpret to mean only "teach the Bible".
It's actually an interesting claim in itself.
Suppose God were intending a literal Armageddon. Wouldn't something like the work done by JWs have to be performed by someone like JWs?
(Amos 3:7) For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.
hmmm.
either jehovah god (the perfect god) didn't give that information.
it never was the "truth" in the first place..
God and Christ chose Peter. Did they give him inaccurate information?
(John 21:21-23) Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, what will [John] do?” 22 Jesus said to him: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” 23 In consequence, this saying went out among the brothers [apparently from Peter], that that disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?”
*** w72 4/1 p. 200 they shall know that a prophet was among them' ***.
yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a "prophet" of jehovah was among them.
actually now more than a million and a half persons are helping that collective or composite "prophet" in his preaching work and well over that number of others are studying the bible with the "prophet" group and its companions..
"Today, prophesying would apply to any Bible-based teaching that a Christian minister does." -WT publication "God's Love" (2008), page 209
"Jehovah’s Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6." - WT publication "Reasoning" (1989), page 136
For some context, this is from Watchtower, March 15, 1986, page 19...
Some opposers claim that Jehovah’s Witnesses are false prophets. These opponents say that dates have been set, but nothing has happened. Again we ask, What is the motive of these critics? Are they encouraging wakefulness on the part of God’s people, or are they, rather, trying to justify themselves for falling back into sleepy inactivity? (1 Thessalonians 5:4-9) More importantly, what will you do if you hear such criticism? If a person is questioning whether we are living in “the last days” of this system, or perhaps is entertaining ideas that God is so merciful that he surely will not cause the death of so many millions of people during the “great tribulation,” then this individual already has prepared his heart to listen to such criticisms.—2 Timothy 3:1; Matthew 24:21. Yes, Jehovah’s people have had to revise expectations from time to time. Because of our eagerness, we have hoped for the new system earlier than Jehovah’s timetable has called for it. But we display our faith in God’s Word and its sure promises by declaring its message to others. Moreover, the need to revise our understanding somewhat does not make us false prophets or change the fact that we are living in “the last days,” soon to experience the “great tribulation” that will pave the way for the earthly Paradise. How foolish to take the view that expectations needing some adjustment should call into question the whole body of truth! The evidence is clear that Jehovah has used and is continuing to use his one organization, with “the faithful and discreet slave” taking the lead. Hence, we feel like Peter, who said: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.”—John 6:68.
So, as a group they claim to be "prophets" but that really just means they teach Bible prophecy.
It always ends up feeling dishonest when anti-JWs cherrypick WT "prophet" quotes without context, since the WT / JW position on this has been consistent since Russell. With all that's there to criticize, this is weak.
on another thread, an active jw wrote the following:.
but the past of jehovah's witnesses is all out there exposed for everyone that wishes to see and recount it in detail.
like charles darwin, charles russell lived during the 19th century, too, and, like darwin, russell he had some zany views (like that pyramid of russell's, for example).
I have been in dozens of Kingdom Halls in and around Brooklyn, Pittsburgh, and elsewhere. Many of their libraries have WT publications which are nearly and more than a century old, and all of that is freely available to read there and photocopy. No effort is made to hide this information.
The vast majority of JWs know that those older publications include obsolete phrases, illustrations, and yes understandings.
My college textbooks (yes, I still have many of them) also include obsolete phrases, illustrations, and understandings. If I were to go to a professional conference today paraphrasing those books, my patient colleagues would likely say well that's not exactly wrong but there are good reasons we now explain it this way instead...
Over 131 years, the number of JW doctrinal changes has been in the dozens, not the hundreds. Published expectations have been carefully worded; they weren't "expiration dates".
For example, Macmillan wrote that on October 1, 1914, he was good-naturedly teased and laughed at by WT staff for having said at a recent convention, “This is probably the last public address I shall ever deliver because we shall be going home soon [to heaven].” Macmillan himself wrote about giving a talk on October 7, 1914, "In that talk I tried to show the friends that perhaps some of us had been a bit too hasty in thinking that we were going to heaven right away, and the thing for us to do would be to keep busy in the Lord’s service until he determined when any of his approved servants would be taken home to heaven."
That sentiment wasn't revisionist history written in 1980; he spoke those words October 7, 1914 when several weeks remained in October 1914.
What purpose is served by the quote? Is the distraction of quoting from a "confidential" publication worth that distraction?
There's not much in the Flock or Shepherding books which is unique to those publications, so it may make sense to quote from a more accessible publication instead. I'd guess the main reason a person here wants to quote from the Shepherding book is to show that their local elders did or didn't do something they should or shouldn't have.
I'd guess a typical Witness will concede that individual elders are imperfect and at times foolish, even without rubbing his nose into the "proof".
it's ok.... to post here on the internet, on jwn, and other jw related forums.. first of all, as we all know, the governing body doesn't provide a forum for jw's to "associate" with their brothers and sisters.
i'm just guessing, and i could be wrong, that its harder to control the flock when they have free access to information and each other.
damn electricity and the technology it brings..... anyway, i realize that for anyone leaving, or for practicing jw's, to post is a nervous thing.
Yes, of course it must be mindless obedience that keeps active JWs off this forum.
There's no way it could be the constant insults and smarmy condescension.
There are many reasons for it, but I'd guess most active JWs are simply too busy to waste time on the internet. When they do have free time, they likely use it doing something they enjoy. What kind of person finds this particular forum enjoyable?
my bf and i are thinking on getting married.
i posted a foum early this week on whether or not i should get baptized.
i decided not to.. now even though he says he "doesn't care" he got upset last night when i mentioned the subject and how confused i was.
JW life is challenging, so it may be hard for outsiders to understand why someone would inconvenience themselves so. Why do they?
The fact is, you can't unring a bell. Once a person accepts that the Bible doesn't teach Trinitarianism (one of the easiest Bible truths to grasp), he may be convinced that 99% of Christians are brainwashed by that big lie. For many Witnesses, the hundreds of other doctrinal differences with Christendom just reinforce the conviction that tradition, convenience, and personal preference mustn't be allowed to outweigh Bible truth, at least for a principled person of faith. Anti-JWs tend to attack personalities and incidents, but anti-JW theological arguments just don't ring true to these folks.
Just as a person may avoid good nutrition and exercise during periods of his life, a JW may have periods of relative inactivity in the faith and may even have unhealthy binges of what the faith (and he, perhaps not even fully acknowledging it yet) believe to be "sin".
It sounds like the boyfriend/fiance is such a person, currently but temporarily inactive. It seems likely he will eventually become more active in the faith, and adhere more closely to its beliefs and practices. He will not celebrate holidays, and he will seek to teach his children his faith. He certainly will NOT force anyone to get baptized! He certainly WILL be under powerful obligation to be a respectful husband and conscientious father.
My advice to you is to marry him, he's a catch. One caveat is the likelihood that in time you will realize it is the truth.
My advice to him is to remain single until he can find a mate with whom he can be "evenly yoked".
hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.
i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.
lutherans say.
No, Christianity teaches that everyone warrants love, at least principled love (agape).
It is worth being explicit to clarify that the grace ("undeserved kindness") shown by God is a free gift rather than a general niceness OR a reward that is deserved (or "owed") to humans. Remember Adam and Eve? Christianity (for the most part) teaches that the first humans alienated humankind from God, and (strictly speaking) after that were deserving of death.
(Romans 5:12,15 NWT) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned... But it is not with the gift as it was with the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one man Jesus Christ abounded much more to many.
hi, i'm a bit of a lurker on this site occasionally, just to help me understand my jw relative.
i am so curious to ask this question, but i fear asking a practicing jw, because you know, they can be a tad evasive, and maybe defensive too.
lutherans say.
JWs use the term "undeserved kindness" where others use the term "grace". Just as the original Greek term would have been more than a mere "feel-good" term, so the English rendering is more clear when it's more than mere fuzziness. Is not the JW's NWT rendering more clear in verses such as this...
(Romans 11:6, NWT) Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer due to works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness no longer proves to be undeserved kindness. [italics added by me]
(Romans 11:6, NIV) And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
Similarly, JWs use the term "declared righteous" where others use the terms like "justified" (and "redeemed"). The concepts of "undeserved kindness" and "declared righteousness" are not identical but are complementary. Paul wrote the Galatians that a Christian could "shove aside the undeserved kindness of God", which JWs believe happens when a Christian doesn't allow his faith to move him to godly works. James writes that true faith must result in godly works, and he further writes that a Christian without godly works could not be "declared righteous". You can see how having fuzzy terms would make this discussion much less interesting.
(Galatians 2:16,21, NWT) [A] man is declared righteous, not due to works of law, but only through faith toward Christ Jesus, even we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, that we may be declared righteous due to faith toward Christ, and not due to works of law, because due to works of law no flesh will be declared righteous. ...21 I do not shove aside the undeserved kindness of God; for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing.
(James 2:21,22,24, NWT) Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected... 24 YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone.
