Posts by cofty

33

I and the Father are one. John 10:30.

by dgp in

i'm not that good at quoting the bible.

i see no value in learning verses by heart, sorry.

however, i just learned that in the new world translation (the organization's bible), john 10:30, jesus is said to say "i and the father are one".

cofty

Thanks Cattails - fair comment. The father is referred to as the god of Jesus a number of times in the NT. This is hardly compatible with the trinity. No amount of special pleading about "economic, ontological or immanent" distinctions gets around that does it?

Stephen - wow so much I could say, but its after midnight here so I will try to be brief.

I am very familiar with Francis Collins. He is an outstanding scientist and as such has the sense to leave god in the locker room when he goes to the lab. All of his research is strictly based on methodological naturalism.

However I think the cost in terms of intellectual freedom is too high. - me

Is intellectuality and faith basically incompatible? - you

Can you see how you radically changed my point?

I did not say that christians lack intelligence I said there was a price to pay in terms of intellectual freedom. Francis Collins is vehemently opposed to creationism and ID. He has no time for those who wish to undermine the teaching of evolution in schools. How welcome would he be to express those views in the majority of evangelical churches? Would you invite him to promote these views in your church? Joining the "community of faith" involves surrendering some of your intellectual freedoms. In this regard it is different from our previous experience only in degree.

I did watch the video you posted about the trinity - I'm sorry but it was dreadful. Doug Harris and his guest chatting about Elohim is not going to convince anybody who isn't already convinced for other reasons. Similarly your 4 proof texts for hell depend on lazy exegesis and are very easily answered.

I have tried to avoid getting into the specifics with you, I have no real interest in that. My point is simply to alert others that at least some mainstream christian doctrines are just as tenuously based on scripture as many WT doctrines. Its tempting for us ex-jws to believe things almost on principle because it goes against things we were told by the borg. I am saying don't do that, apply your critical thinking rigorously to everything.

For you to suggest that somebody could only disagree with your understanding of scripture if they have been influenced by the WT is blinkered.

I think if you are true to yourself then you shouldn't enter into theologocial discussions regrading true doctrine because you don't believe in God. Theology is the study of God after all. The atheist's position should be that theology is a waste of time as God doesn't exists.

A million times NO!

Many more will travel from WT to christianity, some will stay there and be very happy others will look back on it as a necessary part of their journey. Either way is fine. I respect everybody's right to follow their own path. I spent many years living the post-borg christian life; it turned out to be profoundly unsatisfying.

You have never experienced life as a JW or as an unbeliever. I have lived all three and I wont be told to keep my experience and knowledge to myself. I will thank you not to try define how I ought to think in order to be true to myself.

I am still interested in your experience of being born agian. Maybe you could put it into words or describe how it affected you life?

We have had this conversation more than once. I have no interest in trying to convince anybody of the authenticity of my christian life. Whether you believe me or not is fine by me.

42

British Tories pledge to stop creationism in school

by cofty in

stick pins in my eyeballs or vote conservative?

its a difficult dilemma.

however with a general election on the horizon michael gove the shadow education secretary has just gone and added to my angst.

cofty

Well I won't base my vote on any one issue, as I hinted in my OP I don't have a lot of time for the Tories. Its ironic that the party I despise so much has come up with a policy I agree with so much. Now if they could come up with something equally sensible on a myriad of other policies....

Anyone know of a school in Britain that actually teaches Creationism?

Yes loads of them including the two I mentioned above.

Dozens of schools are using creationist teaching materials condemned by the government as "not appropriate to support the science curriculum", the Guardian has learned. - Guardian 27/11/06

42

British Tories pledge to stop creationism in school

by cofty in

stick pins in my eyeballs or vote conservative?

its a difficult dilemma.

however with a general election on the horizon michael gove the shadow education secretary has just gone and added to my angst.

cofty

Reg Vardy, the fundie car salesman now has two schools in the North East of England. Emmanuel College and Kings Academy. The following extract from a report in The Guardian from 2005 gives a flavour of their ethos.

Vardy's Christian beliefs are shared by John Burn, sometime head of Emmanuel College and now education adviser to the Vardy Foundation, and Nigel McQuoid, principal at the King's Academy. Papers they have co-authored give a flavour of their stance: "If relativist philosophy is acceptable, then sadomasochism, bestiality and self-abuse are to be considered as wholesome activities," runs one. "It is very important that young people begin to realise that activities which are 'private and personal' often degrade oneself and are not necessarily good and acceptable." By way of clarifying the latter position, McQuoid recently told the Observer that "the Bible says clearly that homosexual activity is against God's design. I would indicate that to young folk."

Most notoriously, Vardy schools accord equal importance to both creationism and theories of evolution.

For a publicly funded school to be allowed to poison children's minds in this way is a national disgrace. It is an abuse of power and tantamount to abuse. Blair was huge fan of Vardy and defended his indoctrination of young minds in the House of Commons in 2002. Its past time for the govt to put an end to this. I would write to my MP but he's Lib Dem so I may as well write to the House of Commons janitor.

42

British Tories pledge to stop creationism in school

by cofty in

stick pins in my eyeballs or vote conservative?

its a difficult dilemma.

however with a general election on the horizon michael gove the shadow education secretary has just gone and added to my angst.

cofty

Interesting cultural difference. If David Cameron was photographed frolicking at a creationist museum it would be politically damaging.

Its actually getting increasingly difficult to tell the main parties apart from each other.

It was Tony Blair who promoted faith schools, wealthy christians like Ed Vardy, a northern car salesman, quickly poured millions into setting up schools that are allowed to play fast and loose with the curriculum. Richard Dawkins interviewed one of their science teachers in his programme "The Root of all Evil" (which still hasn't found an outlet in the USA) He admitted to being a young earth creationist - aaaarrrgh

The policy is starting to backfire with the rapid rise of muslim schools, I suspect this is the greater concern of Mr Gove and his Daily Mail reading followers

42

British Tories pledge to stop creationism in school

by cofty in

stick pins in my eyeballs or vote conservative?

its a difficult dilemma.

however with a general election on the horizon michael gove the shadow education secretary has just gone and added to my angst.

cofty

Stick pins in my eyeballs or vote Conservative? Its a difficult dilemma.

However with a general election on the horizon Michael Gove the shadow education secretary has just gone and added to my angst. In an interview with the BBC's Andrew Marr yesterday he said...

"fundamentalist groups who taught in a way that undermined democratic values would be challenged, and if necessary, closed down...

To my mind you cannot have a school which teaches creationism... And one thing that we will make absolutely clear is that you can not have schools that are set up which teach people things which are clearly at varience with what we know to be scientific fact."

OMG I find myself agreeing with a Tory MP! I need to write to Ed Balls and see if he will make the same promise now that the reverend Tony Blair has been put out to pasture.

20

"If Christianity Doesnt Matter Why Do You Bother With It?"

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

many theists ask why atheists care about god or the bible.

the question deserves an answer.

below, former pastor, bruce gerencser, provides one.

cofty

When Christians attempt to teach religious dogma as scientific fact in our public schools….It matters.

Of course, it matters to Christians that atheists teach atheism and evolution as scientific fact.

This is an example that concerns me. Apart from a few "faith schools" (thanks to Saint Tony B.) science teaching in the UK is thankfully free of influence from creationists. In the USA it seems to be having to fight a constant battle. You would have thought Dover would have put an end to it?

I would oppose anybody teaching atheism in school, that is not the job of a school teacher, but evolution is a fact. The idea that anybody could oppose the teaching of one of the most important discoveries of science is just unthinkable. I applaud America's separation of church and state; its worth defending.

190

What's your personality type? Myers-Briggs test

by frankiespeakin in

take this 72 yes/no question test to find out.. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp.

cofty

I have been ENTP for years now

Do you find a tendency to always be challenging yourself with new ideas but often struggle to finish the details of a project? - I do

190

What's your personality type? Myers-Briggs test

by frankiespeakin in

take this 72 yes/no question test to find out.. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp.

cofty

I took one of these test years ago it was much more complex than this test but interestingly it gave exactly the same result.

If you google your 4-letter result you will find loads of info from various sources. I find it scarily accurate including the bits I really don't like about me!

33

I and the Father are one. John 10:30.

by dgp in

i'm not that good at quoting the bible.

i see no value in learning verses by heart, sorry.

however, i just learned that in the new world translation (the organization's bible), john 10:30, jesus is said to say "i and the father are one".

cofty

Thank you Stephen.

I did not seek to insult you as an exJW or any lurking JWs by calling the religion a delusion.

That's OK it is a delusion no question about that,

after all you are now an atheist and any belief in God surely must be a delusion in your mind?

Yes I would have to agree with that. It seemed totally real and very compelling to me when I was a christian though and I would never seek to insult or demean anybody for their faith as long as they keep an open mind. Christianity and the community of church can have some very positive effects on people. However I think the cost in terms of intellectual freedom is too high. For me though what is true is ultimately more important than what works.

why defend the WT anti-Trinitarian view if you do not believe in the existence or God?

I am in a position that is unusual but by no means unique. I have lived and studied both WT and christian life and doctrine and understand both quite intimately. I am an apostate from both world views. I despise the borg with a passion and I think they are wrong about just about everything. However I think it is a mistake to go from skepticism to cynicism. Just because the WT teaches something does not make it automatically wrong. Starting from a biblical perspective there are at least two things which the WT are on at least just as firm a foundation as christianity. I believe that is the doctrines of hell and trinity.

Of course my personal view is that all supernatural belief is a delusion but I don't think that disqualifies me from sharing my knowledge and experience when somebody asks about doctrine.

I think it is a mistake for somebody who is leaving the borg to assume that since the WT is wrong then mainstream christianity must be right. Too often I have seen people who have developed good critical thinking skills during their exit from the WT just surrender those in order to be accepted by a church family. I know - I did that. I believed the heart of the gospel with a passion (no pun intended) but I found that a whole package of other doctrines were included in the deal of being part of the new community of faith.

I believe that the similarities between the WT and many evangelical christian groups are greater than the differences - no disrespect intended

Cofty

190

What's your personality type? Myers-Briggs test

by frankiespeakin in

take this 72 yes/no question test to find out.. http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp.

cofty

ENTP