Posts by MrMonroe

11

Gay "Knocking" director Joel Engardio writes again on shunning by JW family members

by MrMonroe in

a previous thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/200592/2/joel-p-engardios-article-on-jws-washington-post has covered an earlier story joel engardio wrote on gays and witnesses.. in the washington post (nov 7, 2010) he writes again of how his jw mother grieved for him "as if i had died" when she learned he was gay.

engardio notes:.

"among jehovah's witnesses there is no easy exit for the adolescent who skillfully parrots theology at age 10 or 12 and decides in his late teens or early twenties that the religion isn't for him.

MrMonroe

Sorry, forgot the link: http://onfaith.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/11/when_religion_is_the_bully.html

Incidentally, is there an easy way adding a URL link here?

11

Gay "Knocking" director Joel Engardio writes again on shunning by JW family members

by MrMonroe in

a previous thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/200592/2/joel-p-engardios-article-on-jws-washington-post has covered an earlier story joel engardio wrote on gays and witnesses.. in the washington post (nov 7, 2010) he writes again of how his jw mother grieved for him "as if i had died" when she learned he was gay.

engardio notes:.

"among jehovah's witnesses there is no easy exit for the adolescent who skillfully parrots theology at age 10 or 12 and decides in his late teens or early twenties that the religion isn't for him.

MrMonroe

A previous thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/200592/2/Joel-P-Engardios-article-on-JWs-Washington-Post has covered an earlier story Joel Engardio wrote on gays and Witnesses.

In the Washington Post (Nov 7, 2010) he writes again of how his JW mother grieved for him "as if I had died" when she learned he was gay. Engardio notes:

"Among Jehovah's Witnesses there is no easy exit for the adolescent who skillfully parrots theology at age 10 or 12 and decides in his late teens or early twenties that the religion isn't for him. Anyone who officially joins through baptism is subject to shunning if they don't follow the agreed upon rules.
"I was never baptized and it saved my relationship with my mom. Gay kids who got baptized before they could come to terms with their sexuality are not so fortunate. In the most extreme cases, parents cut all contact with their shunned adult children.
"...I wonder if parents with religious objections to homosexuality have fully considered the consequences of insisting their gay child follow a faith that works for them but not their child. Can the religious parents who lost a gay child to suicide or shunning ever find peace with the outcome? Or would they rather have a relationship with their child, alive, separate from their religion?

It's a shame that Engardio, whose "Knocking" doco was embraced by Witnesses as a glowing endorsement of their religion, didn't address the issue of shunning by families in his piece.

The lesson in Engardio's tale is a powerful one: kids are pushed into baptism at an early age, long before they are mature enough to know how they will feel in adulthood. But once baptised, they are trapped in a religion that refuses to allow anyone to escape without being eternally damned, their families forced by a cold, calculating religious doctrine to refuse to speak to them again, treating them as if they are dead.

49

What made you start questioning: people or doctrine?

by In in

let us know what got you questioning wbts in the first place.

i've got a theory that it starts with people hurting us and only then does the "apostate" turn to looking at the beliefs.. anybody who started questioning beliefs first?.

MrMonroe

1. First, the people. It increasingly bothered me that people were putting so many of the decisions in their life in the hands of "the brothers" and declaring that they would support the decisions of "the brothers" come what may. Over time it rankled me that I couldn't buy Lotto tickets, our kids couldn't celebrate birthdays ... they weren't even my decisions to make.It bothered me that so many in the congregation were nasty, small-minded, gossiping and overwhelmingly judgmental.

2. When I spent two or three days staying with relatives at Bethel, it horrified me how Bethelites seemed both lobotomised and smug; how their lives were dictated by endless arbitrary rules, many of them designed to humiliate Bethel members, and the appalling implication that THIS was how they imagined life would be like in the new system, run by small-minded, petty and egotistical men like THAT.

3. I became increasingly angered by the time wasted at conventions and assemblies I loathed because of the same dreary material trying to make me feel guilty for not doing enough, the same fake experiences and demos that didn't relate to real life at all and the whipped up "excitement" at anything some visitor from Bethel said about what "the brothers" were doing anywherein the world. I realised that few JWs actually enjoy conventions ... they go because they feel obliged to and know that if they miss it there'll be whispering about them.

4. The UN debacle piqued by curiousity about what else "the brothers" were up to they weren't telling us about, and it was after that that I began furtively reading bits of Crisis of Conscience on the internet. That allowed me to see at last how the GB were just men, and arrogant, manipulating and deceitful ones at that.

5. It was only after a good friend told us she was leaving the org (she told us she couldn't use the term "the truth" any more because she decided it wasn't ...) that it provided the realisation for my wife and I that we actually had the option of simply ceasing attendance. We wish, wish, wish we'd bloody well done it a long time ago. Thank God for Raymond Franz and the internet.

10

2011 Daily Propaganda...er...I mean Daily Text Bible DISTORTIONS

by brotherdan in

reading through it is vomit inducing.

they chage the word of god, making it invalid.

it contains all the "best" stuff from the wts of april 2009 to march 2010. much of it focuses on the "faithful slave" and the 2 class idea.

MrMonroe

The May 18 daily text is a repetition of the appalling "theocratic warfare strategy" that was cooked up in the paranoid 1950s. ("Use theocratic war strategy", The Watchtower, May 1, 1957, "Questions from readers", The Watchtower, June 1, 1960, "Christians live the truth", The Watchtower, October 1, 1954, "Waging the Right Warfare", The Watchtower, June 15, 1956).

As part of their cult thinking, Witnesses have an overwhelming siege mentality, in which they are coached to think that the world is out to get them because they alone are God's true representatives. Note the use of the thought-terminating cliche "apostates" to provide JWs with a knee-jerk reaction when they suspect a question is being asked by someone without "pure" motives.

In encouraging its members to hide uncomfortable truths, the WTS proves that it is deceptive and simply encourages its gullible members to conspire with it in its own devious methods.

44

how to tell elders we dont wana go anymore leave us alone,

by serein in

jw
friends

stoped goin over a year ago now, been bugged ever since,iv just sent em away with im ill to tierd goin out what ever excuse i could think of to get em off my back,.

im a big wimp so is my husband, every time the elder turns up we go yer yer come next week what ever and wel sort sumat out.

which we dont mean its our brain washed mind talking and its very weak,.

MrMonroe

To a greater or lesser degree, what you've experienced is what many of us have experienced. When my wife and I were fading, our book study conductor phoned to say he'd like to come and have a chat with us.

I said, "You mean a shepherding call?" He said, "Well, yes," I said, "No thanks, I'm actually doing fine. If I want to talk, I'll let you know."

I understand that because of the power elders have over publishers it takes a bit of guts to stand up to them and assert yourself. But they always count on the expectation that publishers will wilt and accept their "theocratic" superiority. In reality they have no more power than the person behind a stall at your local market, or a door-to-door seller who pushes you to buy something you don't want. I bet in that case you say, "No thanks" and keep walking (or shut the door). The fact is elders are humans like you and the spruiker at the market, and you can just say, "No thanks". If they don't accept that, treat them exactly as you would any other persistent tout.

When we finally did quit going, the same elder came and visited my wife at her workplace to see how she was going. He happened to mention the CO was in town that week, which was of course the only reason he was calling. She told him, "No, we're fine, thanks" and wouldn't say any more. He never came back, probably because he could then go and tell the CO that he'd done his best. Your elders there are certainly persistent, but maybe it's because they sense you're vacillating and maybe they think you can still be won over.

Sure, it takes guts first time, but it gets a whole lot easier after that. Just try it.

10

Article and pictures of JW's paradise

by compound complex in

jw
friends

http://www.unc.edu/~elliott/icon.html.

this is really good; please click on.. coco.

but surely the utopian hope that nurtures the vision of the total resolution of all evil and injustice in a millennial paradise on earth is precisely the consequence of the witnesses' obdurate refusal to accept "life as it is.

MrMonroe

Andrew Holden's "Jehovah's Witnesses: Portrait of a Contemporary Religious Movement" book (pg 92-3) noted the stark contrast between imagery in their literature of the paradise ("deliriously happy faces with surrounding emerald green slopes, clear blue skies and bright sunshine ... an exaggerated vesion of contentment") with life on the outside ("pictures of people being murdered, thieves breaking into houses, couples acting promiscuously, all of which show life outside the organisation as debased and riddled with moral danger. These images are presented in dark colour and portray characters with unattractive features.")

He added: "This contrast of salvation on the inside and risk on the outside implies that not only can there be nothing in between the two systems but that morality cannmot exist outside the Watch Tower community."

40

You will no longer be disfellowshipped for associating with a disfellowshipped person.

by shepherd in

"if members of the congregation are known to.

have undue association with disfellowshipped.

or disassociated relatil'es who are not in the.

MrMonroe

Page 60 of the Shepherd the Flock book notes that "Brazen conduct" may warrant the establishment of a judicial committee. The definition of "brazen conduct" includes "an insolent, contemptuous attitude made evident by a practice of these things:
• Willful, continued, unnecessary association with disfellowshipped nonrelatives despite
repeated counsel."

Bottom line: anyone who ignores the directive to shun a DFd or DAd individual is guilty of brazen conduct, displaying "an attitude that betrays disrespect, disregard, or even contempt for divine standards, laws, and authority." The GB is undeniably acting on God's authority, hence anyone who ignores their ruling must be expelled and shunned.

I can't help but wonder if Jesus would have condemned as a "wrongdoer" someone who simply spoke with someone who had been expelled from the local Jewish congregation by the Pharisees.

31

KS10 Chapter Six Discussion

by yknot in

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200524/1/ks10-chapter-one-discussion.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200527/1/ks10-chapter-two-discussion.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/200581/1/ks10-chapter-three.

MrMonroe

Link gone.

40

KS10 Chapter Five Discussion

by yknot in

reiteration that the below is a discussion of chapter 5 from 'shepherding the flock of god' which is published by the wts of penn/ny.

the wts is a non-profit that distributes it's publications free of charge worldwide.

this particular publication while not for sale (well none of the wts publications are either technically) is not distributed broadly but is still nonetheless part of their bible educational work, while not required donations are joyful accepted by all jws for the purpose of this work....... here are the previous discussion threads:.

MrMonroe

According to paragraph 9, a judicial committee may be formed to investigate the "offence" of "brazen conduct", which would include the "Willful, continued, unnecessary association with disfellowshipped nonrelatives despite repeated counsel". The book cites three scriptures in support of this: Matthew 18:17b (referring to repeated counsel) 1 Cor 5:11, 13 which is Paul's appeal to quit mixing in company with a brother Christian who is a fornicator, a greedy person, idolator, reviler, drunkard or extortioner, and 2 John 10:11, which appeals to Christians to steer clear of a person who (v.9) "pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ."

In none of those scriptures do I see any scriptural command for a Christian to shun someone who chooses to reject the peculiar teachings of a religious denomination, namely the Watch Tower Society. If a Witness told the judicial committee they still believed in Christ and God but did not believe the whole FDS backstory and was subsequently expelled, doesn't that mean the Watch Tower's decision to (a) expel that person and (b) command others to shun him would be "pushing ahead and not remaining in the teaching of Christ"?

Without a doubt, the WTS commands elders to expel and shun members of the religion on its own set of rules. Its profession that it is all based on scripture is pure bunkum.

17

Any of you have one of these?

by bottleofwater in

do or did any of you ever have those super emotional brothers and sisters (typically older) who think that every little thing will cause armageddon?.

example - when the pilot landed the plane on the hudson river... oh my god!

it's a sign of armageddon!

MrMonroe

An elder I know spends his whole shaking his head and looking sad about what the world is coming to. And yet every passing milestone of mankind's descent into deeper degradation fills him with a greater sense of satisfaction. Sad, really.