An Aussie band in the late 1980s used an illustration from a WT pamphlet on an album cover. I was a bit surprised at the time, because I was new in the religion. I wish I'd held onto it now. It was instantly recognisable, but they were very much a low-rate band and barely rated a blip on the rock music radar.
MrMonroe
JoinedPosts by MrMonroe
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35
When did the "other sheep" class begin to form?
by Vanderhoven7 inis there anything in wts literature as to which century the alleged non-anointed class of the wts began to form?.
i thought it was early on in the 20th century.. am i wrong?.
vander.
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MrMonroe
@Stapler99, the WTS seems a trifle confused about who the great crowd are.
Consider that when the phrase occurs at Rev 7:9, the "great crowd" (or "huge number" in the Jerusalem Bible) are described as those who come out of the great tribulation.
WT 3/15/09: "The resurrected ones will be judged, not on the basis of sin inherited from Adam, but by what they themselves choose to do ... With upbuilding new information available and a life filled with good things, they will no longer be distressed by the bad things of the past. Those past experiences can be put out of their minds. The same will be true of the “great crowd,” who survive Armageddon. (So two separate groups then.)
WT 1/15/08: "Of course, while the resurrected ones will have much to learn from us, we will have many questions to ask them. They can fill us in on events that are mentioned in the Bible but not described in detail ... Faithful servants of Jehovah who have died—including those of the great crowd who die during the time of the end—will come forth to “a better resurrection.”(So the great crowd now includes those who died before Armageddon).
WT 1/1/07: "The apostle John saw this modern-day ingathering in vision. First he heard the announcing of the sealing of the final ones of the 144,000. Then he saw “a great crowd, which no man was able to number,” standing before Jehovah and Jesus, with “palm branches in their hands.” These “come out of the great tribulation” into the new world ... The antitypical Festival of Booths will reach its climax after the end of the Thousand Year Reign of Christ when they along with faithful resurrected ones are granted everlasting life. (Er ... so now "faithful resurrected ones" aren't part of the great crowd.)
WT 5/1/05: "Likewise, for us to receive Kingdom blessings, we must be alive in God’s new world, either as members of the great crowd of Armageddon survivors or as those resurrected from the dead." (Oh, it's one or the other).
WT 2/15/03: "In time, Jehovah’s organization began to focus attention on others in addition to Christ’s anointed followers. A notable development along these lines took place in the mid-1930’s. Before then, God’s people viewed the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9 as a secondary spiritual class that would be associated with the 144,000 resurrected anointed ones in heaven—like bridesmaids or companions of the bride of Christ. But on May 31, 1935, in a discourse given at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., it was Scripturally explained that the “great crowd” (“great multitude,” King James Version) refers to the “other sheep” who live during the time of the end." (So ... if you're alive during the time of the end -- which began in 1914 -- you're one of the great crowd, even if you die before Armageddon.)
WT 10/15/96: "Without doubt, the resurrection of the dead is a time of boundless happiness for those resurrected to life in heaven. But the happiness does not end there, for also promised is a resurrection to life right here on earth. Those resurrected will join an unlimited number who survive the end of the present wicked system. After viewing the small number who qualify for a heavenly resurrection, the apostle John was given a vision of “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” What a happy time that will be when millions, possibly billions, come back to life here on earth!" (Uh, just a minute. So the great crowd actually includes the resurrected ones now?)
They're just not sure.
And don't you just love that phrase in the 84 WT cited by Leolaia: "When did the Fine Shepherd set out to bring together his other sheep? Many centuries later, yes, in this 20th century, according to the facts of the case." Facts. Facts?
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April 2011 WT: Shoving the Faithful Slave down our throats again
by brotherdan inthe opening article of the new april 2011 wt starts by talking about israel abandoning jehovah.
"in one section of.
their camp, the israelites sawthe pillar of fire.
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MrMonroe
Perhaps it's time to discover new light that the Governing Body are the "Jesus class". I'm sure some reasoning can be discovered in the Bible for that.
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How is the transfer from a congregation handled by the elders?
by trevorbv inif any of you were elders how is the transfer from a congregation handled?
how do elders know where to send the proclaimer's file and letter of recommendation?
does it go through the local branch if in the same country?
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MrMonroe
Interesting suggestion, Black Sheep, but they're a suspicious lot and I don't think they'd simply forward a publisher's records to no one they knew.
When my wife and I moved to a congregation in Australia from another overseas, the congregation secretary here made a rather enigmatic statement to my wife about the contents of her publisher card, suggesting rather jokingly that they'd been warned to watch out for her. It has always intrigued us about what that letter of introduction said. My wife, like me, was always rather "independent" and spoke up when we saw the crap going on in in the congregation, but I just don't know whether the elders in that congregation would have gone to the trouble to indicate that my wife should be watched!
It's a funny thing that by paying a nominal fee you can get to read a printout of your credit rating, and in some countries also see the contents of your police files. The WTS amasses information but carefully keeps it.
Years ago, for some reason, our book study conductor passed around our publisher cards containing our records of field service for the previous year or two. (I think the reason wa to shame us into doing more field service). I was quite surprised to see hours inserted when I'd failed to put in a monthly report -- the congregation secretary was evidently eager to ensure I had runs on the board to maintain my status as an MS, even though some of them were fiction. The month after I got married, my BS conductor told me he'd put i a report for me while I was on my honeymoon to make sure my prospects of becoming an MS weren't hindered.
It sure would be interesting reading those cards.
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What is the source of this photo?
by possible-san inwhat is the source of this photo?.
was this printed in a wts's publication?.
although i know this photo well, i'd like to have persuasiveness when i explain to other people.. .
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My Letter To the Watchtower
by AiAi inthis is an exact copy of my letter to the watchtower.
it never recieved a reply (i did not include 'attn writing committee' in the address however).
please keep in mind that when i wrote this i had just started my intensive research into their beliefs/history, and despite my agressive tone i really did expect a satisfactory answer.
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MrMonroe
Excellent letter.
Another point worth asking is this (raised on another thread):
Can the WTS please answer the following question about the changed doctrine of the Governing Body representing the FDS.
In 1981 the Watchtower declared:
While alive on earth, Jesus’ faithful apostles were especially responsible for providing spiritual teaching for the “household of God.” Appointed ‘shepherds’ of the “flock,” as well as others, also had similar responsibility. However, the apostle Peter shows that such stewardship of divine truths actually was committed to all the ‘chosen ones.’ Hence, each respective member of the congregation made a contribution to the building up of the body. Thus we see a clear Scriptural basis for saying that all anointed followers of Christ Jesus make up God’s “servant,” with Jesus as its Master. Accordingly, that servant, or “slave,” as a collective body provides spiritual food for all the individuals of this congregation, which make up the household of “domestics.” These individually benefit as recipients of that food. (March 1, 1981, pg 26).
After 28 years, new light "evidently" shone on God's organization to indicate that it is not, after all, the entire slave class that feeds the domestics, but a tiny representative body.
The Watchtower, June 15, 2009: "Are all these anointed ones throughout the earth part of a global network that is somehow involved in revealing new spiritual truths? No. Although as a composite body the slave class is responsible for feeding the spiritual household, not all individuals of the slave class have the same responsibilities or work assignments ... Similarly, today a limited number of anointed men have the responsibility of representing the slave class. They make up the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. These spirit-anointed men oversee the Kingdom work and the spiritual feeding program. As in the first century, though, the Governing Body does not consult with each individual member of the slave class before making decisions."
So in 1981 the task of feeding the "sheep" was that of the thousands of anointed all around the world. Today it is regarded as the task of seven men in Brooklyn. I have two questions:
(1) To whom was this revealed -- the entire slave class ... or a tiny representative body in Brooklyn?
(2) How was this revealed?
Good luck for the future. And keep on knocking.
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1967 Wierdest Yearbook experience EVER! Witness silences talking snake!!
by Witness 007 inyearbook 1967 p.105 "a large crowd was following a man who had a talking serpent...the serpent gave greetings and spoke in foreign tongues {college educated no doubt he he}...a brother passing by went into the house, as soon as he entered the room the serpent stopped talking.
the man cried out:"a magican has entered the room!...the brother asked the man: "is that a serpent or a demon that has spoken to you?....not one serpent has spoken except in the garden of eden"...seeing that the serpent remained silent the man left the house...he later was anxious to get some literature...".
how did this stupid experience get passed the bethel bullcrap detector???
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MrMonroe
"he later was anxious to get some literature..."
I love that phrase. I always used to listen out for it in experiences at assemblies, especially when it was about an Opposer, a government official or local dignitary. For Witnesses, it's the Money Shot, where they can high-five the person sitting next to them and say, "We did it, again, brother!"
Watchtower January 15, 2000: "In El Salvador, one man tied his vicious dog in front of the door whenever he saw Jehovah’s Witnesses nearby. The brothers were never able to speak to the man. So one day they decided to try a different approach. Knowing that the man could hear what they were saying, they decided to preach to the dog. They came to the house, greeted the dog, and said how glad they were for the opportunity to speak to it. They talked about the time when there would be a paradise on earth, when no one would be angry—yes, when even the animals would be peaceable. Then they said a polite good-bye to the dog and started down the path. Much to their surprise, the man came out of his house and apologized for never having given the Witnesses the opportunity to speak to him. He accepted the magazines, and a Bible study was started. This man is now our brother."
Yearbook 1996: "That same day they were escorted to the border by two carloads of heavily armed policemen. However, on reaching the frontier, the brothers witnessed to their police guards, placed literature with them, and shook hands all around before continuing their journey."
Yearbook 1978: "In this way Manuel Alexiades was able to witness to Prudencia Font de Bordoy, president of the Catholic Action group in Puerto de Pollensa, a small town on the northeast coast of Mallorca. She accepted some of our literature."
Yearbook 1972: "The publishers were taken to the police station and questioned. The police, however, treated them kindly, accepted literature, shook hands with them and released them."
Awake October 2006: "Then, just as the carjackers had told them, they stopped the vehicle, got out, gratefully accepted some Bible literature, and let Susan and Anika drive away safely."
Awake October 22 1999: "The priest admitted to knowing the truth about some of the Bible topics that we discussed but confessed that he did not teach the truth regarding these things for fear of losing his job. Later Esther, my younger sister, and I visited his home, and he accepted Bible literature."
Awake January 22 1988: "Once when I was eight or nine years old, I was calling at homes along with an elder. A lady opened the door, and I began my presentation. In a very rude manner, the lady said to the brother: “You even obligate these poor children to preach!” “No, Madam,” I promptly replied. “If I am here, it’s of my own free will!” After that, the lady, speechless, accepted the literature that I offered her."
Let's face it, if someone accepts literature, that's another win for God, isn't it?
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picture of JW child baptism ... link to news paper
by Aussie Oz ini won't post the picture as it may breach some copyright or something.
here is the link.
http://www.caller.com/photos/galleries/2010/aug/21/jehovahs-witnesses-baptism/.
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MrMonroe
Shocking! This girl is too young to legally drink, drive, vote, marry, have sex or fight for her country. Most of those restrictions are because she is considered too young to make an informed decision. Does she realise that if she changes her mind any time from here on about her choice of religion, she will be put on trial by her congregation and shunned? "Jon Benet" parents are commonly criticised for forcing their children to live a life that mirrors their own; Witness parents who push pubescent children into making a lifelong commitment deserve similar condemnation.
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References for "Did Jesus Really Die on a Cross?", Watchtower 2010, Mar pp.18-20
by pirata ini thought i'd dig up some of the references made in the.
"did jesus really die on a cross?
", watchtower 2010, mar pp.18-20interestingly 2 references are honestly quoted, but the other 2 are misquoted.. what are your thoughts on the credibility of each reference source used and why?
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MrMonroe
Leolaia, I enjoyed your comments. For years I read constant references in WT publications to the views of individuals such as WE Vine, without knowing anything of the origin of their views. Putting it in context, as you have done, goes a long way to explain why their viewpoints converge with the Witnesses, and why they therefore prefer quoting such writers.
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April WT is out. Blood, FDS, moses & crazy stuff...
by bohm inthe april wt is out, get it while you can.
what caught my attention was the first article.
some quotes:.
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MrMonroe
The article helps seal the doctrinal shift that the FDS is synonymous with the GB.
2001: "The Governing Body appoints qualified brothers at the branches to represent it in making appointments of elders and ministerial servants. Care is taken that those acting representatively on behalf of the Governing Body clearly understand and follow the Scriptural guidelines for making such appointments. Hence, it is under the direction of the Governing Body that qualified men are appointed to serve in the congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide." (The Watchtower, January 15, 2001, page 15)
2008: "It is Scriptural for “the faithful and discreet slave” through its Governing Body to appoint men to positions of responsibility, and some men are appointed to exercise authority over other appointed men." (The Watchtower, October 15, 2008, page 23)
2011: "Jesus Christ is the assigned Leader of the congregation. He has delegated some authority to a faithful slave class, made up of faithful spirit-anointed Christians. That slave class, in turn, appoints overseers in the Christian congregation." (The Watchtower, April 15, 2011)
