Ah yes .... A "spiritual paradise" indeed. Crazy that they have a problem with me catching a few z's on a couch after working on the Hall like that and yet they don't have any problem having me do the same kind of work out in Brooklyn while working on the Sands building and sending all of us guys to shower naked together in a group twice a day. Now that's messed up! If they're such prudes and worried about the "appearance of things" how about they give the brothers at Bethel some privacy with individual showers? Personally I think that group shower thing is just another way of taking away the rank and files dignity at Bethell.
The_Present_Truth
JoinedPosts by The_Present_Truth
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64
Strange, Offensive , Weird Statements on DFing Offenses in Elders Manual
by flipper inyou really can't make this stuff up.
but an organization like the wt society bent on controlling virtually every aspect of the typical jehovah's witness life - would make this up to keep their control through the use of fear and guilt.
so- i thought i'd share what i thought was the strangest, most offensive, weird language dealing with what the wt society calls " disfellowshipping offenses " .
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64
Strange, Offensive , Weird Statements on DFing Offenses in Elders Manual
by flipper inyou really can't make this stuff up.
but an organization like the wt society bent on controlling virtually every aspect of the typical jehovah's witness life - would make this up to keep their control through the use of fear and guilt.
so- i thought i'd share what i thought was the strangest, most offensive, weird language dealing with what the wt society calls " disfellowshipping offenses " .
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The_Present_Truth
Yep Flipper, my eyes began to open more and more as I matured. Every chance they got someone was there waiting to stick it to me. I enjoyed the KH builds but truth be told, I'd enjoy going to build a Habitat for Humanity home just as much or probably more since I know it will actually impact someone's life in a positive way.
Those guys were rumdumbs. Did they actually think that I'd pick "that" night, after I'd probably worked 20 hours and eaten who knows how much drywall dust - to go out and commit fornication? I don't think so. I'd wait for a night when I was well rested and at my best.
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64
Strange, Offensive , Weird Statements on DFing Offenses in Elders Manual
by flipper inyou really can't make this stuff up.
but an organization like the wt society bent on controlling virtually every aspect of the typical jehovah's witness life - would make this up to keep their control through the use of fear and guilt.
so- i thought i'd share what i thought was the strangest, most offensive, weird language dealing with what the wt society calls " disfellowshipping offenses " .
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The_Present_Truth
Point #11.....
11. Evidence testified to by at least two witnesses that the accused stayed all night in the same house with a person of the opposite sex or in the same house with a known homosexual under improper circumstances. ( Million $$$ question - How the hell do you define " improper circumstances " ? So many variables and various circumstances that NOBODY could judge anybody unless these 2 witnesses were in bed sleeping with these alleged sinners ! ) Give me a break.
Years back, I'm going to say around 1994, I was at a KH build. At the time I was on almost every crew at the KH builds because I had learned most all of the skills and trades with the exception of electrician and masonry crews. So it was pretty common for me to go from one crew to the next as the build progressed along, often times working all the way through the night. Well, as some of you know, there was always a "rooming attendant" of some sort that arranged for the various brothers and sisters from out of town to stay at. One night on this project my partner and I worked until the wee hours of the morning, there were very few people around the site that time of night - skeleton crew at best. Everyone at the rooming desk had gone home for the night. My partner and I had just plum ran out of steam and had no place to go. One of the sisters we knew locally (young -smae age as us) was still there and said we could crash at her place if we both didn't mind sharing a pull out couch. She had quite a few others staying at the house as well. All of them young though. So sure, we're 19/20 what the heck? The pull out couch beat the front seat of my car. Plus I could get a shower and get the drywall dust off me.
Well we wake up the next morning, and of course we're in the middle of the living room on this pull out couch right. There's no where else to sit. The young sister, who's house it was, and a couple of others had sat on the end of the mattress just making small talk about what the agenda was for the day. Don't you know a group stops by the house and sees this sister sitting on the end of the bed with another friend of ours and me and my buddy still under the covers. Well, wouldn't you know it, I show up at the KH build later that morning and am asked to go into one of the Regional Building Committee trailers. Turns out, someone from the group (as I find out later it was this psycho chick that had a major crush on me and was totally imbalanced mentally) had reported that this other sister was in bed with us! Really? Give me a f'n break! The elders jacked me up and I wasn't going to hear it. I'm like, "Listen, I work my butt off on every single hall build, there was no place to go last night but there, I'm a Regular Pioneer, a Ministerial Servant, I just got back from a month of Temp work at Bethel working on the Sands building - exemplary behavior overall and you're going to jack me up over me needing a place to sleep for a few hours? You're out of line." They sent me off with a firm warning not to stay at a sister's house like that again because of how it looks otherwise I probably shouldn't work at the KH builds anymore. I did a couple more after that and then I was done.
Idiots ...... I don't miss them one bit.
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If God truly loved humans...why not reveal himself ? So that they could make an informed decision ?
by smiddy inwe learn from the bible that god spoke to adam ,then certain faithful ones,then after moses only the preisthood that was established,and individuals, raised as prophets,and this by the way is only a a small select group on the planet.never mind about other groups of humans.
fastforward to the era of christ ,again, god is only dealing with a small select group to advise and admonish.during the time from moses to christ he was only dealing with what became one small nation.the rest of humankind were left to their own devices.fastforward down to this 21st century we have no guidance/instruction/prophets to instruct or guide us.
( i know this is where jw`s would say but we have been preaching & teaching you god`s truths since 1879 ) all i can say their, is take your head out of the sand and look at all the changes ,corrections adjustments,re-adjustments,reversals,and failed expectations of prophecy you have published over this last century )so as to my question why hasn`t the god of the universe revealed himself to all humans of every race on all continents instead of just a small select group, if he truly was interested in the human race.
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The_Present_Truth
Heaven,
I totally understand why you feel the way you do. If you read my comments above you'll see I have my own doubts about the "story" set forth in the Bible. Since this part of our discussion is off topic and Smiddy has asked us to stay on topic we can talk about it off to the side if you like. Or not. Either way.
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117
If God truly loved humans...why not reveal himself ? So that they could make an informed decision ?
by smiddy inwe learn from the bible that god spoke to adam ,then certain faithful ones,then after moses only the preisthood that was established,and individuals, raised as prophets,and this by the way is only a a small select group on the planet.never mind about other groups of humans.
fastforward to the era of christ ,again, god is only dealing with a small select group to advise and admonish.during the time from moses to christ he was only dealing with what became one small nation.the rest of humankind were left to their own devices.fastforward down to this 21st century we have no guidance/instruction/prophets to instruct or guide us.
( i know this is where jw`s would say but we have been preaching & teaching you god`s truths since 1879 ) all i can say their, is take your head out of the sand and look at all the changes ,corrections adjustments,re-adjustments,reversals,and failed expectations of prophecy you have published over this last century )so as to my question why hasn`t the god of the universe revealed himself to all humans of every race on all continents instead of just a small select group, if he truly was interested in the human race.
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The_Present_Truth
Smiddy,
It's a good question Smiddy. Apologies for being one that got sidetracked on the thread. You know, I suppose there are a group of people that feel God has revealed himself through both Scripture and creation and based on that they HAVE made an informed choice - either for or against worshiping him. Of course, that only addresses the God of the Bible. The rest of the population would reference Creation and some other written work likely.
God has an open invitation into my life. As I said, there's still some belief left in me for him, just not religion. Unless of course he can point me to one that is most obviously being blessed by him with actions, growth, evidence of love in its dealings, not buried in religious dogma, and doesn't need my money.
I will say this, when I first began to search online for answers and I ended up on Randy Waters site, there was an interview with him. In it, he made some comment about the fact that there were things in this life that he would never find the answers to and that was ok. Becoming "ok" with that brought some level of peace. I can relate to that. As a JW, we were taught that we had to have an argument or explanation for everything. That's a tall order. Personally, I think it takes more faith to just let those unexplainable things go and leave that to God, while we focus on the things in our life that we can explain and influence. I doubt seriously that a loving God is going to hold us responsible for things that were beyond our comprehension due to them being conveyed incorrectly perhaps or in code. Things we can help and understand though - like how we interact with our fellow man, I could see being held responsible for to some degree.
What is evident is mankind's need "as a whole" to worship something. That is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal population. The mere fact that this is so indicates that "Something" or "Someone" has a presence that needs to be recognized. It's something that is nearly as strong as other forces of nature. Perhaps therein we find God.
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If God truly loved humans...why not reveal himself ? So that they could make an informed decision ?
by smiddy inwe learn from the bible that god spoke to adam ,then certain faithful ones,then after moses only the preisthood that was established,and individuals, raised as prophets,and this by the way is only a a small select group on the planet.never mind about other groups of humans.
fastforward to the era of christ ,again, god is only dealing with a small select group to advise and admonish.during the time from moses to christ he was only dealing with what became one small nation.the rest of humankind were left to their own devices.fastforward down to this 21st century we have no guidance/instruction/prophets to instruct or guide us.
( i know this is where jw`s would say but we have been preaching & teaching you god`s truths since 1879 ) all i can say their, is take your head out of the sand and look at all the changes ,corrections adjustments,re-adjustments,reversals,and failed expectations of prophecy you have published over this last century )so as to my question why hasn`t the god of the universe revealed himself to all humans of every race on all continents instead of just a small select group, if he truly was interested in the human race.
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The_Present_Truth
Tammy,
I don't mean to imply that 100% of "Believers" don't / can't think or reason. If that were the case I'd likely be lumped in with them. I'd classify myself as an Agnostic Theist Creationist at this point in time. (I believe in God & Creation - not necessarily the way the Bible outlines things-but can't prove either one happened or exists. Don't believe in religion.) Still there is a shred of "belief" left in me.
The problem that some believers have is that they question and reason using a template that doesn't allow them any new information from outside resources. It's like us claiming that we "studied" religions of the world simply because the "Mankind's Search For God" book from the WTBTS was the subject for the Book Study one night a week. Pre-formatted questions from a source that is clearly biased as we know now, and has their own agenda. I questioned and questioned my beliefs as a JW for years. The reason I still "came back to my faith" is because I was going in a cricle using the same material to study from. I know almost everyone who's here today can relate in some degree to that.
What I see from so many with the "Believer" mentality is that they are just repeators parroting what they've memorized or been taught. When you engage them, they become very uncomfortable, indignant, and usually flee. As I said, listen to any of the videos on that channel on the link I posted above. Listen to the broad segment of Christian callers calling in, how they conduct their conversations, reasoning, etc, and then blow up when the host reasons with them in a very civil but direct manner (most of the time). It's an eye opener to what's going on out there in the minds of "believers".
So no, not a blanket statement. I don't have editing ability yet (not sure if that comes after a certain number of posts) so I couldn't re-state that after it was posted.
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117
If God truly loved humans...why not reveal himself ? So that they could make an informed decision ?
by smiddy inwe learn from the bible that god spoke to adam ,then certain faithful ones,then after moses only the preisthood that was established,and individuals, raised as prophets,and this by the way is only a a small select group on the planet.never mind about other groups of humans.
fastforward to the era of christ ,again, god is only dealing with a small select group to advise and admonish.during the time from moses to christ he was only dealing with what became one small nation.the rest of humankind were left to their own devices.fastforward down to this 21st century we have no guidance/instruction/prophets to instruct or guide us.
( i know this is where jw`s would say but we have been preaching & teaching you god`s truths since 1879 ) all i can say their, is take your head out of the sand and look at all the changes ,corrections adjustments,re-adjustments,reversals,and failed expectations of prophecy you have published over this last century )so as to my question why hasn`t the god of the universe revealed himself to all humans of every race on all continents instead of just a small select group, if he truly was interested in the human race.
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The_Present_Truth
This is a glimpse at the "Believer" mindset. You can pick any video from their series and listen to all the random "Believer" callers and 99.9% of them sound alike.
http://www.youtube.com/user/AtheistExperience#p/a/u/0/5auJ3Dg-zNs
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117
If God truly loved humans...why not reveal himself ? So that they could make an informed decision ?
by smiddy inwe learn from the bible that god spoke to adam ,then certain faithful ones,then after moses only the preisthood that was established,and individuals, raised as prophets,and this by the way is only a a small select group on the planet.never mind about other groups of humans.
fastforward to the era of christ ,again, god is only dealing with a small select group to advise and admonish.during the time from moses to christ he was only dealing with what became one small nation.the rest of humankind were left to their own devices.fastforward down to this 21st century we have no guidance/instruction/prophets to instruct or guide us.
( i know this is where jw`s would say but we have been preaching & teaching you god`s truths since 1879 ) all i can say their, is take your head out of the sand and look at all the changes ,corrections adjustments,re-adjustments,reversals,and failed expectations of prophecy you have published over this last century )so as to my question why hasn`t the god of the universe revealed himself to all humans of every race on all continents instead of just a small select group, if he truly was interested in the human race.
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The_Present_Truth
PSacramento,
You asked:
Atheists simply aren't "believers". They're "thinkers".
As opposed to believers that are NOT thinkers?
That is correct. To "think" is to question and reason. Consider how many "believers" there are in the world who "believe" simply out of obedience and have never once stopped to "think or question" those beliefs. Go to YouTube, type in the Search box "Atheist Experience" and when all their videos come up, pull up the one that addresses the question, "Would you kill your child if God told you to?"
On that note PS, would you kill your child if God told you to? Do you consider yourself a "Believer"?
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117
If God truly loved humans...why not reveal himself ? So that they could make an informed decision ?
by smiddy inwe learn from the bible that god spoke to adam ,then certain faithful ones,then after moses only the preisthood that was established,and individuals, raised as prophets,and this by the way is only a a small select group on the planet.never mind about other groups of humans.
fastforward to the era of christ ,again, god is only dealing with a small select group to advise and admonish.during the time from moses to christ he was only dealing with what became one small nation.the rest of humankind were left to their own devices.fastforward down to this 21st century we have no guidance/instruction/prophets to instruct or guide us.
( i know this is where jw`s would say but we have been preaching & teaching you god`s truths since 1879 ) all i can say their, is take your head out of the sand and look at all the changes ,corrections adjustments,re-adjustments,reversals,and failed expectations of prophecy you have published over this last century )so as to my question why hasn`t the god of the universe revealed himself to all humans of every race on all continents instead of just a small select group, if he truly was interested in the human race.
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The_Present_Truth
Heaven .....
Re:
the total number of "above water" acreage on the face of the Earth.
Did his numbers take into account all the acreages that are uninhabitable, both from man-made pollution as well as naturally occurring toxic areas? How about areas where most of us wouldn't want to live anyways... like Endicott NY for example? How many of us actually want to live in the Arctic or Antarctic, Greenland or Iceland?
Do a calculation on all of THESE areas, subtract it from his total acreage number, and get back to me on the new numbers.
Also, just stick with what we know. The Earth is a constant size and God isn't going to be expanding it any time soon.
Actually, keeping some continuity in our discussion, the premise was that if God had fixed the initial problem of sin back in Eden and restored mankind to perfection you said:
... then we wouldn't be here. The Earth would have filled up long, long ago and God would have had to stop procreation of humans.
Keep in mind, if God had restored mankind to perfection right then, the water canopy would likely still be in place and the earth would be a paradise with perfect living conditions regardless of where you were. So no need to rule out any acreage. It would all be perfect - (paradise remember?).
And for kicks, just what do you think God had planned for mankind in the way of procreation and expanding populations. I wonder what the population situation would be like if no one in history committed fornication and there were no pregnancies out of wedlock? What would the population loss be from those babies not conceived and the resulting generations that those children ended up producing?
Of course we'd need to add back in all the people that were ever killed due to religious wars and squabbles.
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If God truly loved humans...why not reveal himself ? So that they could make an informed decision ?
by smiddy inwe learn from the bible that god spoke to adam ,then certain faithful ones,then after moses only the preisthood that was established,and individuals, raised as prophets,and this by the way is only a a small select group on the planet.never mind about other groups of humans.
fastforward to the era of christ ,again, god is only dealing with a small select group to advise and admonish.during the time from moses to christ he was only dealing with what became one small nation.the rest of humankind were left to their own devices.fastforward down to this 21st century we have no guidance/instruction/prophets to instruct or guide us.
( i know this is where jw`s would say but we have been preaching & teaching you god`s truths since 1879 ) all i can say their, is take your head out of the sand and look at all the changes ,corrections adjustments,re-adjustments,reversals,and failed expectations of prophecy you have published over this last century )so as to my question why hasn`t the god of the universe revealed himself to all humans of every race on all continents instead of just a small select group, if he truly was interested in the human race.
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The_Present_Truth
Tyu ...
If I may I'd like to adress your reasoning on a point by point basis from the ground up. First, do you believe that the Bible has continuity in it's writings from the start of the Old Testament all the way to the end of the New Testament? That is to say that the the theme introduced in the beginning, and the writing are consistant from start to finish - without contradiction?
We'll start here ... and then move forward.