i find the notion that we inheirited sin through adam and eve to be a quaint, silly notion.
if you believe in the power of god, why would god create such a flawed creation?
few people believe the stories in genesis.
So, Faith=Delusion.
Wrong. Faith = Fidelity. This is why there is a harlot depicted in Revelation which is closely associated with the kings of the earth. It shows an unfaithful spouse which represents a turning away from God in favor of another. To remain faithful is a requirement of any lasting relationship whether it be romantic or not. Based on your logic all marriage vows are delusional as they ask for unyielding faithfulness from the opposite party.
-Sab
i find the notion that we inheirited sin through adam and eve to be a quaint, silly notion.
if you believe in the power of god, why would god create such a flawed creation?
few people believe the stories in genesis.
Being intelligent, sophsticated, and well-informed can never serve you ill. This is the JW lie that equates intelligence with evil.
Can't argue with that.
You put up translations of the Bible with no reference. How am I suppose to know how valid your chosen translation is? I had to reference books and articles in junior high school.
It doesn't matter which translation I am using, the Scripture serves as an acceptable citation. If you notice I always try to make note of the scriptures I am using. I am almost certain you have the internet so I know you can easily travel to sites like BibleGateway or BibleSuite and access the original data. I know you to be a woman who doesn't like her hand held. Do you think my posts should have more links to resources and tools?
This myth has caused humans to debate its merits and fairness ever since it was written, probably millions of years after the event.
You are forgetting the fact that we don't know the originators of the myth. We cannot pinpoint the precise point in time when the fable entered society. Unless we know the motivations of the creators (which would require knowing the creators) of the myth we cannot make any concrete secular conclusions. The document is far more spiritual than it is secular (Hebrews 4:12). Also the myth cannot be blamed for anything. That would be like blaming a chair you stubbed your toe on.
I see it as a tentative way of describing human suffering and death.
There is nothing tenative about Scripture especially the Torah which contains the Adam and Eve fable. The entire document was created with the intent to end certain world breaking debates, such as the choice between poly and mono theism. "In the beginning God" means a single entity. The Torah explicitly prohibits under penalty of death to worship celesital bodies. There is a remarkable amount of modern thought in the Torah. This document was not created to gather dust or serve some temporary purpose, but to be on book shelves of every single human and consulted in times of turmoil and unrest or to help gain tranquility and enlightenment.
I doubt if its contemporary audience found it very useful. Job makes no sense in terms of suffering. The answer to Job is to conclude that humans are more moral than YWYH.
Huh? Torah study was a staple of Jewish society and it separated them from the pack. A big reason why they were so hated was because they were so educated and sophistcated in their time. It was, in part, a matter of jealousy. It has long been wrongly thought that civilizations like Egypt, Babylon, Rome and Great Britain are required for creating a leanred, sophisticated citizen. Yet, in defiance of the modern grain Israel has always had their own spiritual and educative frameworks. This effectively made them competition with world powers and needed to be cut down to size. Rome at one point wanted to build a trade route directly through Israel's territory. They were regarded as less than human which makes them the perfect candidate to be chosen by God. What the world casts away, God makes into kings and priests.
Job is just eastern Yin/Yang theology in disguise. A beautiful and pure document.
I studied and pondered human suffering during my illness. My conclusion is that there is no neat answer. If this is the type of God you wish to worship, one that causes small children to be murdered in Conn while at school, allowed the Holocaust in Germany and countless more around the world, sees good people suffering from ALS and cancer, then you have First Amendment rights in this country. I refuse to worship such a God. In fact, I call such a God Satan and spit on Him.
I understand the anger, I share it as well. However all that anger melts like the wicked witch from Wizard of Oz when the truth about God is realized. The truth is that he is in the business of creating incredible intelligence and during that process there are points where his hands ARE tied behind his back. The truth is that he loves us and wishes to SAVE us from pain, not put us through it. Your opinion in this regard is opposite of the truth.
Now, if someone was trying to save your life, but failed because they were obstructed, would you condemn them as a failure? This is the role of each and every person who chooses to have a child. Once the child is born the parent is locked into a struggle to save the child's life. The goal is to ensure a death at a ripe age with many positive accomplishments, however there is a resistance to that goal. Do we condemn the parents of the children who died in Connecticut? Do we lash out at them for sending their kids to an obviously dangerous environment? No, we mourn with them and their plight. We look to improve our environment, not "curse God and die."
The Torah shows a God who regrets the pain and suffering that has been caused by allowing free will. However, God knows what road this species treads, and that is one to eternal brilliance and happiness. It's a promise and one that we should know, in our hearts, will be kept.
-Sab
i find the notion that we inheirited sin through adam and eve to be a quaint, silly notion.
if you believe in the power of god, why would god create such a flawed creation?
few people believe the stories in genesis.
Human conjecture is one thing. Proof from God is another.
Proof FROM God of himself is in every particle of matter that exists. Order exists and this is not by coincidence. The greatest of all order is that which makes up Love. At first glance love seems to be weak, feeble and vulnerable to exploitation and of course it is. However, the true strength, and ultimate superiority, of love is only fully expressed while under stress. It is LOVE that proves God and it is LOVE that human morality is based on. Human morality is but a fragment of the glory of God whom IS Love itself. Human morality is but a crude model, a cheap knock off.
Christ performed miracles, according to the gospels, and most failed to follow him. Asking for proof for an outrageous statement makes sense.
Asking for proof is certainly the most sensible thing to do. However that is how the Serpent is described in Genesis. The Hebrew word translated as "cunning" or "crafty" also involves the thinking process of being "sensible" or "shrewd."
Genesis 3:1 - Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
arum: crafty, shrewd, sensibleOriginal Word: ??????
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: arum
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-room')
Short Definition: man
Right now you are valuing your shrewdness on the matter which makes you a sensible person. However, what value is there in being shrewd in all regards? Is shrewdness a trait of Love? Quite the opposite, actually. Love is often blind and reckless and always founded in risk. That's why we fear it so much. To have an ultimate goal of simply stability is to deny love because love involves RISK which is unstable. It is LOVE that progresses society and that is a fact that is not well understood.
Otherwise, it is fiction.
Yes, or unfactual as you would say. Deeming ancient Scripture unfactual is a very powerful position to take. I held to such a stance more so than I do now at one point in my life. However, I realized that such is not a loving approach and is riddled with pitfalls. Such an approach easily can warp into cynicism and vindictiveness and such traits I do not want to nourish within myself.
-Sab
i find the notion that we inheirited sin through adam and eve to be a quaint, silly notion.
if you believe in the power of god, why would god create such a flawed creation?
few people believe the stories in genesis.
I mostly discuss proven scientific fact. Our faith need not be ignorant or view science as the enemy. The facts of Genesis are utterly ridiculous on their face. If humans never evolved or were created, how would I know they were worth being save. God created a complex ecosystem. Humans do not rule over other animals. Ask any human eaten by a lion or tiger. The smallest organisms' death affects human life.
There are no facts given in Genesis, Band. It should NEVER be told as if the characters are real people. They represent CONCEPTS rather than persons. For so long all of us were subject to the heresy of a literal interpretation of Genesis. The people who wrote it never intended for it to be abused like that. For you to think that Genesis is a presentation of facts shows me that you are unwilling to consider alternatives to mainstream explanations for the text. The fact is that the text has been misinterpreted by people like the Watchtower. Not all misinterpretation is malicious like the Watchtower, but all of it is untruth.
Humanity has ALL lesser life in subjection to it. Yes, lions can defeat us in a one on one fight, but if they were superior THEY would be the dominant species on the planet, not us. We win in the long run, which a theme for humanity. Much like how the history of the nation of Israel is. There have always been microorganisms in opposition to us, but ultimately our immune systems win out, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. This is no coincidence.
Christians need not believe in fairy tales. These ancients legends show earlier generations grappling with the same questions we face. What is the purpose of life? Is there a God? What sort of God do we choose to worship? No religion rules over western cvilization. I can pick and choose. The differences between the sexes is discussed in Genesis I wish Leo were around b/c I am certain Canaaanite religions had many elements in common.
Who is suggesting that we believe in fairy tales? I am saying that the Torah is the superior document when set up against any other Scripture. Which is why it ended up founding the Christian church. Yes, you can find the values of the Torah, which IS Christianity, in many other religions, but the point of the Torah is to consolidate religion (Exodus 20:3). It simply supercedes all other religious thought because it covers every religious and spiritual base imaginable. To hold onto inferior practices because of tradition is not acceptible. The writers set out to accomplish a piece of Scripture that would END all Scripture, and that's what they did. All Scripture after the Torah is merely a reflection of it.
You say that you can pick and choose and that's what the Torah is all about: your God-given FREE WILL, and therefore any recognition of it's superiority will be FREELY given by the reader. No coercion is necessary, it simply stands on it's own two feet. If you don't acknowledge this I would say you're reading it with some limiting spectacles. Like how you think that Genesis is about facts when it's actually about truth and wisdom in regards to the origin of life and existence with a strong theme of celestial leadership and spiritual enlightement.
Most civilizations have creation myths. We do not call Buddhist myths the absolute truth. Why call Christian beliefs, descended from a bastardized sense of Judaism, creation truths.
In my experience most creation myths agree with Genesis. They are told with a different skin, but the same values are intended. This is because there is ONLY ONE GOD and therefore anything people write down in his name will follow a similar line of thought. The Spirit of God doesn't have boundries and certainly doesn't care about race, that's what we care about. A shameful trait that is slowly being weeded out of our culture.
Human morality is shown again and again in the Bible to be superior to that of YHWH. No, I am a modern, educated women who is part of a global economy. Atheism makes far more sense than a fundamentalist view.
This is in no way true. The morality contained in the Torah is true and eternal. It was written by prideful men in a culture of terror and violence. The character of YHWH is a perfect representation of God the Father and his interactions with humanity is spot on.
-Sab
i find the notion that we inheirited sin through adam and eve to be a quaint, silly notion.
if you believe in the power of god, why would god create such a flawed creation?
few people believe the stories in genesis.
I have no clue as to whether humanity was worthy starting.
Really? Then how can you call yourself a woman in Christ? Christ came to SAVE THE WORLD therefore deeming it WORTHY of life. Of course humanity was worth starting. If it wasn't then why would Christ die in order to finish it and create prosperity?
What is more important to me is I am human and I am here presently. I will not be here in the future. This is the fate of all living creatures. Some say death makes life worthwile.
Life should take precedence within the mind over death. To become fixated on one's own mortality is a secular, rather than spiritual pursuit. You and I are eternal, otherwise the questions we answer in this life are inconsequential. A better design would be to create LESS people who lived much longer if you are looking to answer the question of free will. The last thing you want is a bunch of short lifespans. Most people don't accomplish what they want in a single lifetime, they don't get the chance while trying to survive. This is why the concept of reincarnation works so well with Christian theology.
If you postulate the existence of an eternal soul your body merely becomes a temporary vessel housing a spiritual entity. The question of free will in conjuncture with the creation of Man makes more sense if this is NOT the only life we have. The choices you and I make in this life are trivial in comparison to the whole picture, but if our choices are appended to the ones of past lives what is left is a comprehensive whole. So we SHOULD be extremely concerned with the choices we make in THIS life, but it's best to understand that they are part of a whole and not in arbitrary isolation.
There are many species besides humans on this planet. We are very human-centric.
It doesn't matter how many species humans live with, all of them are in subjugation. We are so far ahead of second place it's pretty remarkable. Yes, many species have biological niches that greatly surpass our senses, such as a dog's nose or a dolphins sonar sensors. However if we choose to turn either into a meal they are incapable of sufficient resistance. We are the gods of animals. It is within our God-given power to choose their fate. It's not HUMANS that are human centric, it's EARTH that is.
I believe free will is a human concept to explain suffering.
It does perfectly explain suffering, but we only discovered that we have free will, BECAUSE of free will. Free will has always existed because God has always existed. To call it merely a human concept is intellectually limiting. When we evolved to the point where we could see color that didn't mean we created color, it just means we suddenly became aware of color. The same goes for free will.
Personally, I reject YHWH completely.
Rejecting the Jews and their deity as a whole is grave mistake. The ETERNAL covenant they have with God is very real, we must stand with them or perish.
Christ is how my culture interprets the sacred.
Yet, Christ is the Son of YHWH. How do you reject the Father and honor the Son at the same time? If the Son rejected the Father that would be one thing, but no such thing occured, in fact quite the opposite.
The West has made a big mistake by emphasizing the Jewish scriptures over all others.
All Christian Scripture is an extention of the Hebrew Bible. All early Christians were Jews therefore it's only natural that their Scripture would be venerated above all others as it serves as a permanent foundation (Matthew 7:24).
Do you realize what a teeny country Israel was? It is cultural ignorance to believe they have a monopoly on truth.
You must understand WHY specifically Israel was chosen to lead the world. It's BECAUSE they were the least likely entity in the eyes of the people of the world during their time. Israel was a weak and feeble nation compared to the one's that surrounded it. They were chosen because of their unyielding faith which has always gotten them a long list of sworn enemies. They didn't always practice their faith in an acceptable manner, but they never turned away from the One True God whereas the surrounding nations did. Eventually they did, but only after they were chosen and they were severely punished for these trangressions against their God.
Peter was called "the rock" that Jesus would establish the church upon. Like Israel, Peter was the LEAST likely to be chosen by his peers as a leader and therefore Jesus was showing his disciples that their prioritizing schemes in regards to leadership were HIGHLY flawed. The person they considered the LEAST was actually the GREATEST and deserved power and authority to establish a church dedicated to Christ. The same goes for the whole nation of Israel. They were chosen because of them being CAST aside by their peers. That's why in Revelation the chosen people of God are actually the rejects of the Dragon. Not being chosen by the Devil makes you chosen by The One True God.
It is cultural ignorance to believe they have a monopoly on truth.
They have a monopoly on truth because they were chosen by God (by being rejected by the nations). If you want to talk about culture think about how much anti-semitism exists on this planet. Again we have the nations REJECTING the nation of Israel and calling them "overatted." For how long have they been the underdog? It's cliche at this point. Yet, despite unimaginable opposition they always win in the end and this time period is no different, the answer is that THEY HAVE GOD'S BACKING, because God doesn't break a promise. Everything revolves around God's relationship with Abraham and what was accomplished during those times.
I like to see myself as a citizen of earth.
Absolutely, I do too, however the ruling nation of the Earth is Israel which is why it's been under extreme contention for thousands of years. It only ends once, however. The final battle of Megiddo will settle the contention once and for all.
-Sab
i find the notion that we inheirited sin through adam and eve to be a quaint, silly notion.
if you believe in the power of god, why would god create such a flawed creation?
few people believe the stories in genesis.
If you believe in the power of God, why would God create such a flawed creation?
Although I don't support a literal interpretation of the Adam and Even fable, you are wrong in that they should be considered flawed creations even within the confines of the story. The story was written to show the dilemma of free will and does so extremely well. Free will isn't flawed, it's just a process that involves suffering and death. Basically you are mistaken in that assigning free will to creation is some sort of failing on God's part. Here we are however many years into Project: Human and we are still going strong. We exist in the middle of a trail of tears, but the ends always justify the means.
In your opinion, Band, was humanity worth starting?
-Sab
please tell me i am not the only person who did not survive yesterday..
I personally didn't make it. My death scene was epic.
-Sab
it's all over tommorow!
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exh7h9lk5hy .
Check your globe, Sab. Australia AND China are both west of the Americas.
Yup, keeping spinning west and you eventually hit the Americas! Beautiful country. Like milk and honey.
-Sab
we have entered a new era in our existence.
a new beginning.
a renewed enlightenment.. welcome to 21.12.2012. we have entered a time of peace and harmony,.
But the hoopla about this "new era" originates with a man made religion...
Yes, but it was based off the stars so it's OK.
-Sab
it's all over tommorow!
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exh7h9lk5hy .
In regards to doomsdays, timezones only count on the North American continent, everybody knows that! The sun sets in the WEST.
-Sab
