notverylikely

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Posts by notverylikely

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  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

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  notverylikely

  "It really isn't a question of "Who says..""

  You said it, in fact.

  We seem to be engaged in a conversation in which you are stuck in the SUBJECTIVE WORLD which is in no way different from the IMAGINARY.

  That's certainly an interesting viewpoint, but subjective opinions often interject into reality. That's why we have different flavors of ice cream. I subjectively prefer vanilla bean, but my friend subjectively prefers chocolate. Two subjective opinions that have a very real effect (manufacturers making different flavors).

  I'm arguing from OBJECTIVE commonality which is to say MUST HAVE PRACTICAL APPLICATION in the same world we all share.

  That's not what objective means.

  "No, let's get you to acknowledge that anything you think you think is neither FREE nor WILL until it meets the test of objectivity outside your mind in behavior which demonstrates its existence."

  Why would I agree to acknowledge that? It doesn't meet the definition of free will and layers on criteria of free will that you made, i.e., test of objectivity. The marathon example perfectly illustrates how free will can be used and never accomplish the goal the free will decided up, which is to say that exercising and using free will does not imply achievement of the end result.

  Otherwise, a man who thinks he is Napoleon is as valid to you as the actual Napoleon thinking about his own identity.

  Her certainly is free to think it. I am under no obligation to agree with him. Why would you suggest that? Let's go back to the marathon example. I might think i can run a marathon. You disagree. We have both exercised free will.
• 
  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  notverylikely

  I suppose telling me I've asked the wrong question is one way of avoiding answering the question I've asked!

  I haven't ignored any of them. My telling you that is a way of trying to help you understand logic and debate and how to draw conclusions from a given set of data. Should you choose to learn or not is up to you (free will in motion).
• 
  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  notverylikely

  Surely, you see how fruitless a position that is and how little merit it holds in our discussion?

  Surely no more pointless that you arguing free will doesn't exist when you didn't even know the definition.

  WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between a thought which is inside the head and imagined and a thought which is "REAL?" I'd very much like to know your specific disambiguation on that.

  Argument of misdirection. I said that free will is the freedom to choose and try. With the marathon example, i could decide to train for that marathon, no one is stopping me, i might even tell my friends about it (free speech, baby!), but i might not every start because i am lazy. Free will has been exercised, marathon training, not so much.
• 
  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  notverylikely

  A FREE WILL which cannot go beyond the mind's construction is as illusory in form and substance as Bigfoot, UFO kidnappings, Loch Ness Monsters or any other freakish mental confusion between reality and fantasy.

  Let's stick with the marathon example. My boss and I can both decide to run a marathon tomorrow. We both go to the starting line and both start running. I can tell you right now, he will finish, I will not. I usually run 3 - 4 miles 3x times a week. He runs 7 or 8 marathons a year. His WARM UP is 10 miles. However, I still have the free will to try to run a marathon. Finishing (accomplishing) the marathon has zero to do with the free will to decide to try in this case. I could decide (use free will) to train for a marathon. Crazy, I know...

  What you HOLD IN YOUR MIND is of no consequence to anybody but yourself UNLESS and UNTILL it actually impinges upon reality (THIS WORLD) in the form of an action.

  So? Who says that free will has to effect anyone but the person making the choice?

  Now you've backtracked! SPEAKING and WRITING is ACCOMPLISHING something, which you previously declared out of bounds in your definition.

  I never said accomplishing something was out of bounds. In any event, saying you accomplished free speed and free will are two different things, much like saying i made toast or rolled a rock up a hill. the critera for accomplishment are different.
• 
  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  notverylikely

  Now, are either or both of these men (who individually believe in their own mind they are free to come and go at will) actually in possession of FREE WILL?

  Ah, the old "gotcha!" example, where you reveal the vital clue at the end and try to trick me into saying something that proves your point that free will is all in the mind, when, in reality, you are asking the wrong question.

  The doctor certainly does, unless he is somehow impeded in some way that you are not mentioning. The patient...I don't enough detail. Why is he incarcerated? Why is there a guntower for a mental patient and barb wire? That sounds like a prison to me, not a mental facility. If I presume that we are just talking about a regular mental facility, then I am not in any way arguing that free will for a specific individual (or large group, see China as an example) can't be restricted or suspended, but, for the general population at large, free will exists.
• 
  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  notverylikely

  A citizen, in order to possess the right of Free Speech only has to exercise the mental activity of THINKING about the speech RATHER THAN ACTUALLY ENGAGING in the speech itself.......is that your opinion of what Free Speech is?

  That is not at all what I said. I said that merely speaking (or writing) one's opinion accomplishes free speech. I also said that was not dependant on anyone else listening or caring.

  If that is your opinion, then, I can certainly see why you think FREE WILL consists of only THINKING YOU HAVE IT rather than engaging in an actual choice.

  That's not at all what I wrote. And I never said that free will only consisted of thinking that you have it. I said it does not imply accomplishing the choice of the will.
• 
  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  notverylikely

  Such as those pathetic people who audition for American Idol who strongly believe they have talent but have none.

  OTOH, some of them really CAN sing.

  Isn't there an equally likely error that we can self-deceive about other abilities---such as the "ability to choose our course of action after weighing the relative merits of each." ???

  Oh, sure. Some people are better at making decisions than others. For instance, some people like to make sure they know what something means before they argue for or against it, say for instance, free will. Other people...not so much. Some people are simply better at making decisions that others and weighing critera.

  However, your example is a false premise because exercising free will does not infer ability to act on that will or accomplish it. If a 400 lb. fried donut eater decides to run a marathon tomorrow, he ain't gonna make it, but he certainly has the free will to decide to try.

  In a larger sense, the 400 lb guy can lose weight and start training and might well one day be able to run a marathon. A quadripeligic might not have that same opportunity, but he does have free will in other areas. IOW, free will does not necessarily mean that every person is free to act on every will.
• 
  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  notverylikely

  Mozart ended up in a pauper's grave, did he not?

  He died making a living and was buried in a commoner's (not pauper's) grave, as was the custom of non nobility and non wealthy at the time.
• 
  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  notverylikely

  How about FREE SPEECH? Is it still "free" speech if you only "attempt" to accomplish it?

  Do you think about what you are posting before you press "submit"?

  Clearly more than you do.

  Will != Accomplishment. You might want to google free will so you know what it means.Of course, since I am such a nice guy, I'll do it for you.

  the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies
  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

  The ability to choose one's actions, or determine what reasons are acceptable motivation for actions; The doctrine that human beings (and possibly other beings, such angels or higher animals) are able to choose their actions without being caused to do so by external forces
  en.wiktionary.org/wiki/free_will

  the partial freedom of the agent, in acts of conscious choice, from the determining compulsion of heredity, environment and circumstance.
  www.willdurant.com/glossary.htm

  Freedom of self-determination and action independent of external causes.
  www.carm.org/secular-movements/atheism/terms-and-definitions

  You should take note that none of those in any way made reference to accomplishing your choice. I think where you miss the target is that the very action of making the choice exercises your free will, not accomplishing it, much like saying (or writing) what you think exercises your free speech. No one has to care or listen and you don't have to be right about what you are saying to exercise your freedom of speech.

  Make sense?
• 
  159

  CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

  by Terry in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

  1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

  2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  notverylikely

  To WILL is to accomplish the act of willing, is it not?

  No. You're thinking of the mythical Jeehover, whatever he wills to be will be or some such nonsense. For us regular mortal, free will simply means the ability to choose our course of action after weighing the relative merits of each. Has zero to do with getting to the end of the course.