Posts by notverylikely

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

If we leave all metaphysics to one side, and if Mind is merely an epiphenomenon of carefully organized Matter, and the human brain is a form of quantum computer, then all deterministic bets are off, it seems to me.

That's one of the ideas behind fuzzy logic and quantum computing, creating computers that can make decisions in a non-flowchart method, weighing criteria based on a host of factors and assigning value and making decisions (not following a flow chart) based on that. Of course, we know from the Terminator movies that this is what will eventually be our downfall when Skynet becomes self-aware, but still, interesting idea.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

Things you said, Terry, about randomness and math and INEVITABLE events:

I don't really think anything is precisely "random". How could nature be random?

Randomness doesn't exist in nature as far as I'm aware.

Mathematicians will tell you there really is no such things as "random".

Randomness is our ignorance of the nature of inevitable consequent events.

I am saying that no randomness exists only seeming unpredictible chaos.

YOU brought randomness and math into it, not me. You don't get to now say discussing it is a deflection. If you didn't understand the concepts, it's not now my issue that you brought them up.

This mischaracterizes my first statement!

How so? You were suggesting that a rock has no choice but to fall, just as I had no choice in what I had for lunch, things following their own nature.

Re: Evolutionary psychology... Hear! Hear!

Except when people do things that directly prevent passing on their genes, such as birth control, condoms and snip snip surgery. That proves that, just as much as there are inherent dispositions, we can choose to overrride them.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

I submit it is a deflection by obfuscation to inject quantum mechanics+Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle into the discussion at all.

The real discussion centers on how much direct influence (internally and genetically) is controlling our "decision" heuristic undetected by us to the extent we

Interesting idea since in your very first post you brought math and randomness into this, not me.

The real discussion centers on how much direct influence (internally and genetically) is controlling our "decision" heuristic undetected by us to the extent we call something a Free Choice which is inner-directed and inaccessible.

Then why did you bring math and randomness into the discussion?

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

One day you will take a day of work to play golf and say that you just felt like doing it. The motivation will come from the unconscious part of your mind. You will of course claim it as a preference for that day, an act of free will.

I often take a day of work to play golf. Some days I GET to do that and get paid for it. Some days I play hooky. Can you prove which part of my mind that comes from? Perhaps I wrote down a list of all the factor for and against and weighed them? That certainly appears to be a conscious decision on my part. How are you proving it is not?

You are not predestined to play golf but you are genetically predisposed or programmed to feel the need for a break after working for a certain number of hours and noticing that the sun is out.

I totally agree with that.

You appear to have a need to paste - dissect and contradict everything that is placed before you. It is unlikely that you are aware of this need. You see it as a preference to make things clear in other people's mind.

I just agreed with you. Besides which, you are asseting what I am aware and not aware of. Without any basis for that (you don't know me, have no observational history, etc.), you have no basis for making that assertion.

Or perhaps the idea that you have less control over your life than you like to think is scary

That certainly is one possibility, but without more data you really have no basis to judge.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

Sure, not. However it's a reach to discuss the quantum and the macro with regard to free will in the same breath.

That's why we're at 6 pages now. But still, the orbit of Mercury, a macroscopic event, can on be described and explained using events at the quantum level.

We really haven't gone "there" have we?

PREDESTINATION is not the same thing as being internally influenced by genetic predisposition! Interal urgings, cravings and such are chaotic. Predestination requires an outside agency (such as God).

You see? Different topic altogether!!

You did tie those together early on when you said nothing was truly random and things had to play out the way they played out. You mentioned it and referenced math in your opening post. If they are difference, why did you try to tie them together in your opening hypothesis?

That's not due to quantum gravity... general relativity is what refined our understanding of gravity at those scales.

Grand unified theory is tying GR, SR and quantum mechanics together. GR and SR describe things on a big scale. Quantum mechanics and string theory describe how things on that big scale are influence by things on a small scale. It's a work in progress.

True, but the unpredictability of quantum events does not affect us at a macroscopic level.

Gravitational lensing would be an example of the macro and micro interacting.

Now, I can't say for sure if things at the quantum level ARE truly random. If they aren't then everything MUST play out the way it does. However, if it appears to be random, we cannot divine whether or not it truly is, it measures and behave in a random fashion, the for all PRACTICAL and OBSERVABLE purposes, it is.

Duck, walk, quack, etc.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

We are all entitled to our own opinions but not to our own "reality". What is OBJECTIVE is the same for everybody regardless of opinion.

Except that you added "must have practical application" to the definition. That is not an objective definition, but rather a subjective one that exists only in your mind.

Look mate, until you can make your point using standard agreed upon definitions of things like objective, subjective and free will, you're just spinning your wheels against a brick wall.

Just as what is "true" conforms to reality. Opinion isn't reality. Opinion is subjective. Objectivity is practical. A=A.

In some cases A can also equal B, C, D, etc.

You are now slicing pretty thin! You differentiate between "exercising" and "using". Amazing accomplishment!

"And" is not a differentiating word. I was tying them together if anything. As in"Terry and I are having a discussion." The word "and" ties us together in that context. Using "or" would have differentiated us.

I REPEAT: Free Speech (like FREE WILL) is a useless mental construct if it is not employed.

OK. I don't think I am arguing that at all. You keep refuting points that I am not arguing. I am saying that to accomplish (or employ) free will does not imply any particular result.

You've sought to deflect from that by creating a middle zone whereby one "tries" but "fails". (Marathon example.)

I supposed I could count that as a partial admission on your part, but, I won't.

I've been consistently using the same example (or the same type of example) so I am not sure how, except subjectively, in your own mind, you could even draw that conclusion. Your choice however. But since it's subjective, I guess it doesn't exist, eh?

Bring to mind, if you will, my argument about the "FREE" part of Free Will is that we may well be INTERNALLY pushed by genetic predisposition toward behavior which we (unaware of that inherent proclivity) call our "choice." Somehow we have avoided discussing that by running your marathon and not reaching the end of it!

We did talk about. Remember the posts about subjective preferences? I simply think vanilla bean ice cream taste better. I did not decide that. However, I can exercise free will and choose chocolate on occasion. I don't think anyone is arguing that we don't have preferences. We can override them, however.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

The uncertainty principle applies to the realm of the subatomic. It doesn't enter into the Newtonian realm in actual practice. This is the mistake many make with regard to these things.

Subatomic interaction influence the macroscoic world all the time. Otherwise, the newtonion math defining gravity would perfectly describe the orbit or mercury around the sun, but it does not. It also does not describe gravitational lensing which occurs at the photonic level. Both are macroscopic observable events.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

Behind all the words is a need to engage in this debate; the need is an emotional one.

Why do you presume there is a "need"? A preference will suffice just as well. I also could decide i would rather play golf on such a lovely day. Alas, however, I choose to stay at work and keep my job.

The information you have provided shows that very little of what we do or refrain from doing is controlled by our conscious mind. Unconscious forces compel us to act as we do.

That study was specifically referring to physical actions. Think reflexes, taking a step, etc.

Who else could we possibly be?

What we choose to be. Some people chose to eat poorly and be overweight. I once made those choices. I thought and decided to eat better and work out.

I also once chose to smoke. I have since decided to act against my physical addiction to nicotine and quit.

The words are written to satisfy a need that goes much deeper than content of this subject.

Perhaps a preference, but not necessarily a need.

I speculate that even at the quantum level, which appears to us to be truly random, is NOT random. If the universe state could be restored, even quantum events would play out exactly as before.

See the slit experiment.

Even if quantum events did NOT play out exactly as before, would it matter? Quantum uncertainty has no real bearing on the macroscopic world.

Quite the reverse, quantum events are the building blocks of the macroscopic world.

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

Think about it this way... if we had the ability to save the entire "state" of the universe and restore it to an earlier point in time, everything would play out exactly as it did before...the same choices would be made, the same seemingly random things would happen exactly as before: weather patterns, radioactive decay, etc.

Why do you think that? Observations made actually don't bear this out. For more info, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

159

CHOICE may be a mere illusion. FREE WILL a trick of the mind's ego

by Terry in

jw
friends

things are what they are.. everything acts according to its nature.. nothing escapes its own nature.. we cannot be other than what we are and our "choices" follow our nature.. consequently, can we not say correctly that free choice is merely our ignorance of the fact that all our actions and choices are predetermined by our nature?.

1. if you are offered either a handful of dog poop or a cold dove bar---is your "choice" really much of a choice?

2. offer a heterosexual male a night with a hot chick or a hot dude...is the outcome really "choice"?

notverylikely

What would be the point? Isn't everything we post already predestined?

You could choose the pre-destiny in front of you, but only a great fool would reach for what he is given and you are not a great fool, so you must choose the free-will in front of me. However, in being a criminal, you must have learned not to trust others, so you clearly cannot choose the free will in front of me. However, you are an educated man and in learning you must have discovered the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, so you clearly cannot choose the pre-destiny in front of you. However, you must also have learned that man is mortal and cannot choose the time of his death, so you clearly cannot choose the free-will in front of me.