Posts by Chaserious

18

What laws are on your side (in the U.S.) so you can leave quietly

by oppostate in

jw
friends

in another topic "just quit quietly - the law is on your side" there was a lot of discussion about how to leave quietly without getting tagged publicly as "no longer a jw".

here are some legal cases that could be used to show support for leaving quietly.. you have to first send a letter saying you're leaving that specific congregation, and that you don't want them to keep records of you.. if the boe says anything against you here are some court cases that make precedent for bringing a suit against them:.

baugh v. thomas (1970).

Chaserious

I hate to always be a buzzkill, but all of these cases are significantly factually different, relying on factors that would almost never occur in the JW org. The key with Guinn is that they publicly annonuced her "sins" from the pulpit and sent letters around to other congregations. They also sent their members to hound her to get her to "repent." If you want to have a balanced view of the state of the law, make sure you read Paul v. Watchtower also.

That said, here are some situations where I believe the law could *possibly* be "on your side" in the U.S.

You are expelled without them following proper procedure. E.g., without a committe of 3 elders or for a stated reason that is not a disfellowshipping offense.
Comments about the specific nature of your alleged offenses are announced from the platform, or other untrue specific information about you.
Elders or other JW/WTS persons continue to attempt to contact you after you make clear you have no interest in being part of their organization.
You are removed from an offical legal status without your consent, e.g. as a trustee or officer of the land ownership entity for your local congregation.

Other that that, write a letter to yourself if you wish. I suppose it's not going to cost you anything. I would not suggest that anyone line a lawyer's pockets trying to sue over run-of-the-mill disfellowshipping and shunning. But if you want to, it's your money. The legal can of worms that would be opened if courts ruled that people can't shun would be unbelievable. It's morally reprehensible that they emotionally blackmail members with the threat of shunning. Let's be realistic, it's awful if your family shuns you. Mine does. But even if you win in court, they will just view it as persecution. If your family is willing to listen to the WTS and shun you now, do you think they'll decide to associate with you even if you win a judgment in court? If you're out, you've already won to a large extent. Collect your chips and take them with you.

11

Just 2 questions regarding the U.S. law around sex abuse

by joe134cd in

i just have 2 questions regarding the u.s law around sex abuse.. (1) in this country it is quite common for the events of a sex abuse trial, to have suppression orders placed on it.

one i can think of was when the offender was given name suppression because to identify the abuser would also mean identifying the victim, so hence both were given name suppression.

now with regard to the out of court settlements and gag orders by the watchtower, and yes i do realise that the wt would have the most to benefit by doing this.

Chaserious

A couple of things: first, there are not typically suppression orders on the entire trial. Rather, most states have a rule preventing the parties from publicly filing documents with the alleged victim's full name. If the case goes to trial there is a strong presumption in favor of open and public trials, both civil and criminal. It is very rare to have a closed-door trial, even in sex abuse cases.

It is very traumatic for a victim to go through a trial of this type, and no one should ever fault one for settling. It takes a lot of courage to reveal such awful details about a horrific event that happened to you in front of an entire courtroom that may include the abuser. Even if the defense attorneys go relatively easy on the victim (which is the more common defense approach in these cases) it has to be awful.

At the same time, I wouldn't assume that every defendant who settles is culpable. Sometimes insurance is involved and its a dollars and cents game where the defendant is pretty much forced to settle. Or there could be other valid reasons. With the WTS, its not really a whodunit. Everyone knows what they did; its just a matter of whether knowingly harboring sex abusers makes them liable.

77

Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax in

jw
friends

freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.

your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.

those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.

Chaserious

A tort is a civil wrong, and to have a case in a court of law, your case has to fit in the parameters of a recognized tort. Negligence, battery, libel, slander, false imprisonment fraud are all torts, for example.

If you live in a US state that has something called a human rights commission or something similar, mostly what they do is investigate employment and/or housing discrimination cases and sometimes decide damages to keep a backlog out of the courts. They arent catchall "human rights" tribunals.

77

Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax in

jw
friends

freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.

your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.

those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.

Chaserious

Ajax, you can get out anytime you want. The law recognizes that. Just dont expect to get damages if they announce you are out. I am a little confused by your presumption of a human rights tribunal. I am not aware of anywhere that has a human rights tribunal where any person can just file a claim for money damages based on a novel theory of a "human rights" violation. Perhaps you can be more specific about where you are aware of something like this existing? Personaly, I think the best thing to do is just be happy that you are out.

77

Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax in

jw
friends

freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.

your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.

those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.

Chaserious

The more complicated issue (for most JWs or X-JWs) is that an attorney in the US is not free. Not even cheap. Not even affordable for the average person unless you're considering a 2nd mortgage on your home.

It's true that legal fees are costly. And this is the reason why if the result you want is not to be hounded/DF'd etc, threats of legal action may work. The elders themselves may be afraid of incurring such attorneys' fees.

But for those interested in suing over being DF'd/DA'd/announcements being made, I think the most complicated issue is that the lawsuits are not meritorous. If you have a tort action with merit, it is not hard to get an attorney to take the case on a contingency fee arrangement. For example, I would be shocked if any of the sexual abuse plaintiffs in the WTS cases discussed on this site have paid a dime in legal fees.

77

Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax in

jw
friends

freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.

your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.

those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.

Chaserious

Did you ever sell something, issue a receipt to the buyer and then someone comes along and offers you more than the first guy?

Bad timing - too bad for you- the deal is done and he has his receipt. Thats the power of a little piece of signed, dated paper.

I don't think this analogy holds up. First, I don't think that one's relationship with a congregation/WTS is governed by contract law. But even if it is, principles of contract law requrie you to communicate something with your counterparty before it's effective. The traditional rule is called the mailbox or posting rule, which makes something in writing effective when you place it in the mail to another party; not when you write it yourself intend for it to secretly have effect.

Shunning lawsuits definitely fall under tort law, not contract law, where the defendant's state of mind is relevant. In general, someone has to know about something in order to be liable for it under the law; you certainly will have to prove that a church knew you withdrew if you want to hold them liabie for wrongly treating you like a member. If no mental state is needed, that is called strict liability, which almost never applies. Products liability and dangerous animals are the most notable exceptions where someone can be held strictly liable. Imagine if you never told your boss what religion you belong to or did anything to indicate such, and then tried to sue your boss for religious discrimination for making you work on your religious holiday. You would never be able to hold your employer strictly liable for not knowing your religion. That's a more sensible analogy.

I forgot to respond to your querey about damages. The Human rights commission in my jurisdiction does indeed award damages, for legal costs as well as actual expenses incurred, and damages for injures/ distress suffered.

I assumed you were in the US, as that is really the only place that imposes extensive tort liability where this would even be a discussion. Are you referring to the human rights commission of a US state? If so, those enforce specific statutory schemes in awarding damages, not general human rights principles.

77

Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax in

jw
friends

freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.

your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.

those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.

Chaserious

The DF was reversed

I wouldnt be surprised if it does result at times in lack of disciplinary action and/or lack of announcement. I was mostly commenting that I would be surprised if anyone actually succeeded in a lawsuit.

In the US, there is actually some authority in some states for action if a church doesn't follow it's own procedures in removing a member. For example, if I remember one of the cases involved a church rule that there had to be a majority congregation vote to expel someone and the church leaders did it anyway without the majority vote. Your story sounds like it might follow those lines. Very interesting.

77

Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax in

jw
friends

freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.

your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.

those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.

Chaserious

You should write the congregation' BOE and tell them you do not wish to continue as a member of that specific congregation.

In the same letter you should threaten to take legal action against the elders if they say anything to mar your reputation with your former congregation associates.

If you do this and they decide to DF you anyway and announce it, I highly doubt you would be successful in a lawsuit, and I am unaware of anyone who has been. Some bodies of elders, anecdotally, have decided not to make an announcement out of fear of personal liability and legal costs, but the chances of an actual successful lawsuit are slim to none.

The simplicity of their announcements is legally airtight. They have the right to discipline members by expelling them, and if you choose not to be a member they can't discipline you further, but merely accurately announce you are no longer a member. The distinction you are trying to make between withdrawing from the local cong vs. withdrawing from the religion is not going to do anything meaningful.

77

Just quit quietly - the law is on your side!

by Ajax in

jw
friends

freedon of religion guarantees any individual the legal right to abandon any religion at any time for any reason.. if you are a citizen of a country which champions human rights, then your government doesn t care what religion you join, but they will uphold your freedom to join it, without interference, coercion or persecution.

your countries human rights legislation will conversely uphold your rights when it comes time to abandon any religion you so choose.

those (elders) who incite others interfere, coerce or persecute those who have left will be in transgression of the human rights statutes.. a person is only obligated to ecclesiastic law if he exposes himself to it or transgressed it while still a member of a religious community.. when your time comes to abandon the jw-wt cult, do it while still in good standing, be proactive - be decisive -put it in writing!..and do it before the hounders set sights on you.. write a card or letter with as much or as little explanation as you one day might wish to share with pharisees and lawyers.. take this card to a notary public to have your signature witnessed and have the writing overstamped in several places with the date.

Chaserious

Extracting damages from the congregations surpluses

I realize that you believe you've come up with quite a clever loophole to the legality of DF'ing, but here is a question. Let's say someone does as you recommend, and writes a letter of withdrawal, secretly hiding it away. Then let's say sometime later, the local elders decide to DF the person, making the standard "no longer a JW" announcement.

How exactly do you think you are going to "extract damages?" What is the exact legal theory/ cause of action that you think would be successful? Just to run off a few that seem closest, Intentional infliction of emotional distress, slander, defamation, invasion of privacy, etc. The problem is none of them would be viable. Or is there one that I missed?

7

Not on JW.ORG: Wall Street Journal : Can unhappy Jehovah's Witnesses demand return of donations to Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? Some thoughts.

by Balaamsass2 in

menu

markets dan's journal

live help

Chaserious

If you made a gift or loan in writing with conditions attached and deducted it on your taxes, go for it. My guess is that 99% of JWs donate (if at all) though small cash or check drops into the "worldwide work" black hole, which means you (and I) gave them permission to do whatever they want with it.