alfmel

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Posts by alfmel

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  87

  BANE......

  by Quentin in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  bane said, on another thread:.

  quentin, you haven t moved on!

  that is my whole point!

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  alfmel

  Not being a psychologist but having studied psychology, it seems this forum is theraputic for those with doubt about the organization. They feel they have been hurt by the organization, and wish to express their hurt feelings, and even attack what once attacked them. True, a person should move on at some point, but the length of healing is usually related to the length of hurt.

  One has to wonder, too, why a JW would come here. One might say to defend the faith, but Bane's words quoted above are not a defense, but an attack. It seems Bane may have doubts, and in an effort to confront them he comes here to attack and destroy them. If he can make apostates look bad, then he can reassure himself that apostasy is not the path to take. One really has to wonder: is he here to enlighten the lost soul or to mock it?
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  55

  JW replies on my Shunning article

  by besty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have a google article on shunning -.

  http://knol.google.com/k/why-jehovah-s-witnesses-practice-religious-shunning#.

  its had almost 15,000 page views :-).

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  alfmel

  Replying to my own post, it seems Paul refers to several things when it talks about the church: the actual leadership organization, (apostles, prophets, pastors, etc.), the assembly of Saints in a particular place, etc. However, I don't think he ever meant "the church" to be the individual acts of the people. Thus, if the church had authority to deny people from joininig, then it would apply to the organization, not the individuals in the congregation. I can see an Elder denying entry to an apostate for the good of the fold, but I don't see that authority carrying to the spouse of that person.
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  55

  JW replies on my Shunning article

  by besty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have a google article on shunning -.

  http://knol.google.com/k/why-jehovah-s-witnesses-practice-religious-shunning#.

  its had almost 15,000 page views :-).

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  alfmel

  Paul is correct: anyone not living by the word of God should not be part of the congregation. In order to join the Church of Christ (as Paul suggests) you need to accept Jesus and live by his word. If you are not willing to do so, you may not join. If you join but later leave those teachings and live in a way that is fully contrary to the word, then you should be kicked out of the congregation. Paul also makes constant reference to avoiding those who didn't have the same Christian lifestyle. However, I don't really see in my readings of the Bible those teachings as "you must shun everyone who doesn't act like you." If you were looking for evidence to support shunning, Paul's writing may provide it, but I don't thnk they were the intent.

  If we look at Christ's words (and to me they carry more wieght than Paul's) we find a different story. In the Parable of the Good Samaritan, we find a self-proclaimed religious zealot wanting to trick Jesus and show off his religious knowledge. He asks Jesus what the greatest commandment is. Jesus replies: Love God and reminds the zealot about the second: love your neighbor as yourself. The know-it-all Bible reader then asks, "who is my neighbor" as if to suggest there was a group of people except from his love. Jesus then provides his parable and asks, "who was this man's neighbor?" The highly arrogant Jew now can't put his pride behind and admit a Samaritan is worty of his love, so he has to say "the one that showed mercy."

  To me, the story surrounding this parable teaches us to love everyone, even when you think you are justified in keeping your love away from them. The ancient Jews of Jesus' time were very harsh at judging and condeming, and Jesus rebuked the Jews constantly for this. I find it odd JWs seem to ignore those rebukes. There may be times when shunning a loved one might be the right choice. However, I don't think anyone with a real love for his/her neighbor would come to that point without a great deal of sorrow, soul-searching and tears. Certainly it is not something I would do simply out of fear or retribution. Fear sounds more like Satan's way of dealing with problems and troubled souls.
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  11

  Let's compile the 10 most...

  by MrFreeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  let's compile the 10 most most flawed teachings of jehovah's witnesses and provide sound reasoning and references as to why they are so flawed.

  this way we can all have this thread as a reference when it comes to disputing what jehovah's witnesses believe.

  we can make this a community project.

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  alfmel

  As a non-JW, these are the things I wonder about:

  1. You must listen to the JW message and reject all others. (If everyone believed that, nobody would convert to anything.)

  2. Shunning is how you show Christian love towards the sinner.

  3. Only the JW have the true message, even though they got it from the Bible just like every Christians out there.

  4. You should not pursue a college education.

  5. You should believe every literal word out of the Bible, especially any (supposed) hidden meaning in trying to tell us when Jesus will come again.

  6. The afterlife of the average saved soul will consist of nothing but gardening, and they will all like it and never get bored.

  7. That life for the condemed soul will be eternal sleep.

  Sorry, I can only come up with 7, but let me quote Plato in his work The Apology of Socrates:

  Let us reflect in another way, and we shall see that there is great reason to hope that death is a good, for one of two things: - either death is a state of nothingness and utter unconsciousness, or, as men say, there is a change and migration of the soul from this world to another. Now if you suppose that there is no consciousness, but a sleep like the sleep of him who is undisturbed even by the sight of dreams, death will be an unspeakable gain. For if a person were to select the night in which his sleep was undisturbed even by dreams, and were to compare with this the other days and nights of his life, and then were to tell us how many days and nights he had passed in the course of his life better and more pleasantly than this one, I think that any man, I will not say a private man, but even the great king, will not find many such days or nights, when compared with the others. Now if death is like this, I say that to die is gain; for eternity is then only a single night. But if death is the journey to another place, and there, as men say, all the dead are, what good, O my friends and judges, can be greater than this? If indeed when the pilgrim arrives in the world below, he is delivered from the professors of justice in this world, and finds the true judges who are said to give judgment there. . . .

  The way Plato wrote it, it sounds like eternal rest might be a better alternative to eternal gardening.
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  4

  Adam, Eve and their children

  by alfmel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so jws teach that if adam and eve hadn't disobeyed we would live in the garden of eden.

  based on the telling of the story, adam and eve were so quick to disobey they didn't have time to have any children in the garden.

  so what would have happened if adam and eve had not partaken, but some of their children had?

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  alfmel

  So JWs teach that if Adam and Eve hadn't disobeyed we would live in the Garden of Eden. Based on the telling of the story, Adam and Eve were so quick to disobey they didn't have time to have any children in the garden. So what would have happened if Adam and Eve had not partaken, but some of their children had? Would all of them be cast out? Would some have stayed behind? Or, from a different point of view, let's say they did have children that did not partake. Were Adam and Eve the only ones to partake and to be cast out?
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  21

  Is having "Faith" believing in something without proof? Definitions?

  by Witness 007 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  yes have faith in god brothers!

  he will answer your prayers......if it's "his will.

  " you need to have "faith" that he is there watching over us...even if it seems like he isn't.

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  alfmel

  Faith is the believe you would get replies to your post without knowing what they would be.
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  20

  Fear of being shunned

  by alfmel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for those who have been jws and left,.

  1. how much did you delay your departure due to the fear of being shunned?.

  2. what percentage of the congregation would you estimate remains active due to the fear of being shuned if they were to leave?.

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  alfmel

  In posting my question I never thought I would receive such personal responses. Reading them makes my heart sink. Thank you for sharing your of your grief. I hope I didn't open any old wounds.
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  45

  Do other religions change doctrine?

  by serenitynow! in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  after visiting with a couple of jws over the weekend; and for the first time talking about my true feelings about the org with active jws other than immediate fam, one of them mentioned something interesting.

  when i talked about how with the constant changes to beliefs that i find it impossible to believe that the gb can be guided by the hs.

  so one of the jws said, "other religions change doctrines around too.

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  alfmel

  Blondie,

  I was reading a paper (can't find the link at the moment) from a Mormon fellow at Brigham Young University. He wrote about his quest to find the origin of the doctrine prohibiting blacks from receiving the priesthood. He couldn't find any official statement that was the case. It appeared to him it was an idea held by most protestants of the 19th century that penetrated the Mormon movement. He also mentioned the statement from the leaders of the church when the doctrine changed never singled out blacks or asians or hispanics, but simply said all worthy men could be given the priesthood.

  Putting the ideas of that paper together with what I've read here on other posts, it seems there are two sides to doctrines: what a religion officially states as its creed, and what people believe (an therefore teach) as the doctrine. Yes, there is confusion in any religion I've seen as to what the leaders say should be done and what the people actually do. Heck, most of the epistles in the New Testament contain some kind of correction as to what the belief or a practice should be! In fact, there are several cases where changes ocurred or corrections in the doctrine were made.

  Looking more into the Bible, the change from the Law of Moses to the law of Christ after his coming was a huge change in doctrine: no more burnt sacrifices, no more stoning of disobedient children (darn it!), etc.

  Let me conclude with what several have said here: if you believe in guidance from God himself in the affairs of the Church, then change can happen. If you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible as the source of truth, then things shouldn't change.
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  20

  Fear of being shunned

  by alfmel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for those who have been jws and left,.

  1. how much did you delay your departure due to the fear of being shunned?.

  2. what percentage of the congregation would you estimate remains active due to the fear of being shuned if they were to leave?.

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  alfmel

  very broad range of answers, why dont you tell us what are your concerns then we can pitch in?

  I'm just trying to understand JWs. I don't want to destroy them, I simply want to understand them. I like studying religions and I try to understand why people believe what they believe. I don't really have concerns, really. I do feel bad for those who may wish to leave but fear rejection of loved ones. That's just tough, really tough.
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  20

  Fear of being shunned

  by alfmel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  for those who have been jws and left,.

  1. how much did you delay your departure due to the fear of being shunned?.

  2. what percentage of the congregation would you estimate remains active due to the fear of being shuned if they were to leave?.

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  alfmel

  For those who have been JWs and left,

  1. How much did you delay your departure due to the fear of being shunned?

  2. What percentage of the congregation would you estimate remains active due to the fear of being shuned if they were to leave?