Posts by tec

93

What---if anything---can we learn from AYN RAND'S philosophy?

by Terry in

jw
friends

consciousness.

primacy of existence vs. primacy of consciousness.

prior certainty of consciousness.

tec

Interesting read Mindmelda. Thanks for posting it.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away

This is how I define reality - though at any given time, I think most people believe that their personal reality IS this reality. Those who are sure in their beliefs that is. There are also people who are searching for what is real, so they would be more open to everything out there.

I find it comforting actually, to know that no matter my mistakes in thought or speech or deed, I cannot change or harm this 'universal reality.'

Tammy

93

What---if anything---can we learn from AYN RAND'S philosophy?

by Terry in

jw
friends

consciousness.

primacy of existence vs. primacy of consciousness.

prior certainty of consciousness.

tec

I think you are a lovely person. But, darn it---let's discuss IDEAS!!

Terry - How could I possibly refuse to try and discuss ideas with you after that?

What identity are they able to give to their superior realm? They keep telling you what it is not, but never tell you what it is. All their identifications

consist of negating: God is that which no human mind can know, they say—and proceed to demand that you consider it knowledge—God is non-man,

heaven is non-earth, soul is non-body, virtue is non-profit, A is non-A, perception is non-sensory, knowledge is non-reason. Their definitions are not

acts of defining, but of wiping out.

She is wrong in her assumption here, and that is the point I was addressing. None of my identifications with God consist of negating. I think only of what God is; else how could I know Him? So I am not surrendering to what I do not know, but to what I do know.

Of course, I accept that there are things I will never know or understand in my short lifetime, but I don't waste time on these. I form beliefs and idea on the evidence that I have.

(and if I am to be a true follower of Christ - then I must also submit that my beliefs and ideas are also based on the faith that God has granted me)

Aren't these just slogans?

First, I stated things about God to show that He is not defined merely with negated descriptions.

But no, I don't think they're slogans... not to me, and certainly not if they're true. Then they're just truth.

So I think the question becomes, (and the one I think you were posing) is how do I know that my knowledge is truth? Well, I know I can't prove it. I can only form knowledge based on the evidence at hand.

The bible is a source of evidence for the nature of God, and a source showing what people of the past believed. In the OT we get an example of a God of justice, albeit harsh justice (eye for eye/tooth for tooth); a God of wrath and vengeance (sending the Israelites into captivity for worshipping idols); as well as a God of love and mercy. (rebuking the Israelites for not showing these qualities/ accepting them back over and over despite their constant betrayal of that love)

It could well be that this was all the Israelites could accept or understand, in accordance to the harshness of life and the surrounding nations during those times.

It is also evident, according to Christ and the earlier prophets, that the Israelites made mistakes concerning God's nature and what He wanted from them. Even that they handled the commands they were given, falsely. (the lying pens of the scribe have handled the laws of God falsely: Jeremiah 8:8) So God sent his son. The living Word, to show us through his example of what God wants, and of who He is.

Now if someone does not believe in the bible (its accuracy or its message) or in Jesus as the son of God, then that is another discussion entirely :-)

But the bottom line is that my knowledge is not based on what I believe God is not, but rather on what I believe God is.

Tammy

93

What---if anything---can we learn from AYN RAND'S philosophy?

by Terry in

jw
friends

consciousness.

primacy of existence vs. primacy of consciousness.

prior certainty of consciousness.

tec

God is love. God is just. God is merciful and forgiving. God is spirit. God is what Jesus showed Him to be. God is the creator of the universe. God is eternal.

There's a few positives for ya! Ayn must be talking to the wrong people :)

Tammy

78

Respectable People in Hell - A "How To" Guide

by Perry in

disable fear of god.

now if any man have not the spirit of christ, he is none of his.

tec

Twice in scripture God reminds us that the key to wisdom and understanding is fear. - Perry

N-A-C has it right. Fear is the beginning of wisdom, not the key to wisdom.

I serve Christ out of love. I love the example he set, and the truth he taught us about his Father. I love that he showed mercy and forgiveness to 'sinners' and I love that he asks us to do the same.

Because I love him, I want to please him.

I do not serve Him out of fear. Nor can I truly love someone that I am afraid of... not really. For a long time, I did fear God, and that fear had me saying that I loved Him. (though I did not know what love of God could be until after I loved Jesus) Yet, I did nothing special to serve God when I feared him. In fact, I mostly ignored faith and religion for more than a decade, until after I had children and considered my responsibilities to them.

So some might follow the commands and rules out of fear of God and his punishments, (as some of the Israelites did - though most of them failed to recognize Christ)

But this is not love. This is simply fear of punishment, and fear is not nearly as strong a motivator as love.

'Least not in my opinion.

Tammy

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

tec

Notacaptive, you express my own thoughts very well. I often muddle things up when I try to put voice (or print) to thought; especially when I speak in haste - and I certainly make my share of mistakes, as do we all. So hearing you state something that I also believe, brings a sense of comfort. Or rather - a delightful union.

It (faith) may find delightful union in the company of other faithful individuals. But even if one's companions do not accompany you, you go on. Alone if necessary.

Yet none of us are alone if we have Jesus ( and through him, his Father), who gives us the strength and the comfort to go on.

Tammy

277

Do any of you still believe in 'Hellfire'? heh

by theMadJW in

that they (trinity) are burning billions alive...forever?

with worms that live forever gnawing on them?.

tec

Thank you, Stephen, for responding... and for understanding that I am still learning and considering; and not trying to state my thoughts as fact.

I don't really have much to add. You gave me many things to consider as I study, specifically:

- When Jesus explains a parable, He tells us who the literal people and things that are depicted.

Bear in mind the basics of Revelation are in the rest of the bible, Isaiah, Daniel, the Gospels etc. Revelation just has some specific details and prophecies which will be of importance when the time comes such as the "mark of the beast" etc. but the framework is already clearly laid out in the rest of the bible.

I had recognized the parallels in the rest of the bible. I hadn't considered framework and timing to aid in understanding, though. Thanks.

Regardless of what I may find in the bible, I absolutely do not see the point or purpose of a place called hell, and even less point in varying degrees of punishment for eternity. What purpose does eternal punishment serve- to either those being punished, or to those in heaven?

Annihilation (as the second death) is the closest thing I can come to accepting as perhaps being necessary. My reasoning might be flawed and based on emotion, but I honestly can not see the purpose of anything worse.

Indeed. You need to ask the Holy Spirit to teach you. There are all kinds of explanations but only His matters John 14:26 . He is the Spirit of Truth John 15:26. Agreed! We just need the savvy of His Spirit so we are not misled by false teachers and false prophets :)

Amen to both!

Thank you for listening, Stephen, and blessing to you as well.

Tammy

277

Do any of you still believe in 'Hellfire'? heh

by theMadJW in

that they (trinity) are burning billions alive...forever?

with worms that live forever gnawing on them?.

tec

Hi, Mary - thanks for your comments and perspective! I think I miscommunicated one thing, though...

Rather than simply take what he said at face value, you seem to go to the ends of the earth in trying to explain away the fact that Jesus himself apparently believed in an afterlife.

I wasn't trying to say that I don't believe in an afterlife. I do, absolutely. There are far too many references that Jesus made as to his return, that it would be foolhardy to believe otherwise. I just think that we can have 'hell' (the lack of God) in the here and now, as well as the kingdom of God in the here and now - the spiritual death and life that Jesus spoke of.

I'm trying to look at the different times that Jesus spoke about life and death, and determine which of those were about spiritual life/death, and which were about physical and the afterlife.

'...between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us' it certainly could not be talking about Christ being the "chasm", as you claim, because history tells us that those who might not initially accept Jesus as the Messiah could certainly change their minds and "cross over" if they became believers down the road.

Individual people can and have changed their minds. But those who call themselves Jewish do not accept Christ, and those who call themselves Christian, must do so- obviously :). But even Paul says that the Israelites were experiencing a hardening until the full number of the Gentiles could be brought in. (I concede that there are messianic Jews, but I don't think the Jewish community recognizes them as Jewish) And Paul even became disgusted with his own, and said that he was going to the Gentiles from then on.

So there is a chasm, even now. Though I freely admit that I may not understand what that chasm properly is.

The jist of the parable seems quite obvious: The Rich Man was well, rich. Jesus wasn't condemning him for that. What he was condemning him for was the lousy way he treated those who were diseased, poor, outcasts and had no hope. He didn't give them a second thought as he was too busy indulging himself in an orgy of material comforts. Who was it that Jesus spent alot of time with? The diseased, poor, outcasts and those who had no hope. And this is exactly what he told his followers to do. What did he condemn the Pharisees for? For the exact same thing that the Rich Man was condemned: treating the less fortunate like shit under their sandals. The idea of this parable is that if we care only about ourselves and never lift a finger to help the less fortunate in this life, don't expect any reward in the next life.

Can't argue with this analysis- and you have a very valid point about Chapter 16 being all about the love of money.

I just wonder about this: while the Rich man might have done things that show reasons for his exclusion from 'heaven', does the poor man get in simply because he was poor? The parable says nothing about whether he was good or bad. It only says that he longed to eat from the rich man's table. This just makes me think that there may be a deeper meaning.

I could be reading too much into it, of course. But what I don't believe this parable proves is the existence of hell.

But I sincerely appreciate the feedback.

P.S. - Just so everyone knows, I have no idea what the JW explanation is on this parable. We never got that far, but then, no one had to work very hard to convince me that hell (eternal, individual, torture) was most likely a false doctrine. The explanations that I've discovered, and added to, are from other groups or individuals who don't believe in hell. And I just cannot understand the purpose or point of a place of eternal torment.

Tammy

159

Getting into Arguments with JW's...

by ForbiddenFruit in

i'm trying to fade away, but i sometimes find myself in discussions or arguments with jw family/friends/white haired virgin elders.

now, i usually have them beat on things but i'm not very experienced, so i was thinking if you guys could help me put together a list of completely unanswerable questions to pose to my jw friends/family/elders so they can stop bugging me.

if i keep asking them questions they simply cannot answer, then they might leave them alone.

tec

It depends on if the power of the ransom lies not in the actual death of Christ, but of his death as ultimate proof of his obedience and the willingness of Christ's sacrifice.

Thank you. I was trying to think of a way to word it. I think people sometimes forget that Jesus did not have to obey. Matt 26:53-54 "Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

His example shows us the strength of his faith in his Father, and therefore inspires us to have the same faith and obedience.

Tammy

30

Does ANYTHING About JWs Make Sense To You?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i've been thinking about why people become jehovah's witnesses and why they remain in the religion.. it seems like almost everything they believe in is flawed.. the chronology, which this religion is founded on is a problem.. their understanding of bible prophecy is pathetically funny.

they teach everything in prophetic bible books ultimately apply to them.. their belief that the "faithful & discreet slave class" exists is ridiculous.

in all fairness, they cannot 'prove" anything they say about their organization as being "truth".

tec

To someone who'd never belonged to a single church and who'd never read the bible before, JW's seemed to make a lot of sense. They really only needed to throw in a few truths to give them the appearance of validity. I had just started trying to read the bible so that I could at least recognize when something being taught by priests and such was actually in there.

I didn't know God's name was in the bible, though I never really became comfortable using it. No one told me about the failed prophecies - only about 1914, and then only that they had misunderstood the meaning behind it. The honesty of admitting a mistake was refreshing. I knew there couldn't be some fiery burning hell, and they confirmed this. I never even heard about the trinity until they taught it to me so they could teach me that it wasn't true. (That was silly) And my mentor was/is sincere. I'd never heard anything bad about JW's, and I only saw that there was love, sincerity and humility among them.

A weekly reminder of everything I was learning reinforced those teachings. It was only when I said no more studies while I reflect on things by myself that I felt things were wrong. Which, in turn, led me to the internet and all the failed predictions, and sites such as these.

Tammy

50

Profoundly Shock, Sadening and Traumatic Account of Mary Aguilar

by Scott77 in

after reading this internet link below about the profoundly shocking, sadening and traumatic account of mary aguilar, an ex-jw woman's systematic treatment and abuse, what do you think regarding the action her jw abusive husband, the congregational elders, and finally, the wts attitude when she finally reported the accident to them?

is there any related experienes that you might have come across?.

http://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/blogs/view/306.

tec

but I have been there emotionally

I'm sorry, Quillsky. In some ways, this is worse. No one sees it. Few people understand it, and so even fewer people will make a huge issue about encouraging you to leave.

So I wasn't saying that people shouldn't tell an abuse victim to leave. I certainly think that they should, and for exactly the reason you stated. An abuse victim (certainly an emotional abuse victim) may think it is their own problem unless someone else speaks up about noticing it.

If this is what you were mainly addressing, then I totally agree.

But sometimes that abuse is hidden from the rest of the world. Or the rest of the world isn't around to care much. Or that person was abused as a child, and they never recovered from that. Then, by the time someone does see and tries to say something, that 'poor me' is just as much a part of a person as their own name.

Tammy