Posts by sayitsnotso

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

PSacramento I don't mean to sound coy. I'm just trying to see your point.

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

I have something to show you:

And your point?

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

Outlaw:

I'm not here to preach. I've read quite a lot already (jwfacts for one).

I'll take one of your charges. The fact that the WTS could have had at one time, or even still has, investments that some percentage is with companies that manufacture weapons, what does this prove? I could invest in a mutal fund and some of that money could go to the same thing. A year from now that same money could be diverted in other funds and no longer in such a company. Its not like I hand picked the companies to invest in. Not to mention that many may give in trust these types of funds to the WTS at their death. So I don't see your point here.

But I digress, the main reason for this post what the original question that resulted from my research. To me either there is a God or there isnt. If there is a God then I don't see the WTS being wrong on it's core beliefs. If there is no God then what hope do we have?

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

Let me ask you: If wars could be prevented - I'm all for it, but would you just let an enemy come into your land and kill your loved ones? You just roll over and let someone rape and plunder your household? If the Jehovah's Witnesses had their own country - I guess they would only pray that noone invades them, right? Otherwise, they would just do nothing? It's so easy to say "war is bad" when you don't lift a hand to protect the fight for the freedoms you are obviously take advantage of. Maybe one day we won't have war ... that would be nice, but until that day comes ... you should be thankful for those who protect your freedom.

I can understand the point you make about someone coming into my house to kill, rape, and plunder. I would need to protect my family as much as I could. My goal would not be to kill, unless that is the only option. However, this is different when it comes to the country in which I live because of the following reasons:

1) The country is not my family. While I respect the government, I choose to not be involved in it's affairs.

2) There are people that will fight. They do not need me. Consider also, if everyone was one of JWs then there would be no war, and thus no need to fight.

3) Most wars involve killing innocent people. How could I have that bloodguilt on my hands? What would happen if I killed a fellow believer? I could not put myself in that positon.

3) There are some situations when yes, one needs to do nothing, just as Jesus did not fight and instructed Peter not to.

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

I have an open mind. I think that is important to maintain.

Those points I listed are not comming diretly from the WT. Nowhere will you find a recent WT saying 1914 may not be true, for example.

I would accept the facts if proof was provided. I think that is part of having an open mind. I don't take the position of "don't confuse me with the facts." I have already acknowledged that some things I feel could be inaccurate. I am fine with that. I think other things are indisputable, or atleast many believes have no better (or more concrete) alternative provided. No organization here on earth could be perfect as it is made up of imperfect humans.

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

Can you accept that Watchtower is not "God's Organization" or the "only true religion"?

At this point no. To me if God exists and the Bible is reliable then I have no problem accepting that JWs are the one true religion. My reasons based on the following composite (in no particular order of importance):

Having a worldwide brotherhood that loves one another.
Not going to war (otherwise we wouldn't have #1)
Basing beliefs on the Bible (remember the prerequsite that the bible is reliable above) See 4-11.
Teaches that the soul is not immortal (otherwise, yes we would have heard back from someone that died by now)
Teaches that there is no hellfire. A loving God wouldn't punish people with forever-long suffering. That isn't reasonable.
Does not hide or downplay God's name Jehovah or teach a Trinity.
Preaches the Good News of God's Kingdom
Keeps seperate from the world
Adam and Eve lost perfect life in pardasic conditions on earth.
The bible says Jesus was the Second Adam to enable mankind to regain what was lost.
Just as in Noah's day, Jehovah will again destroy ungodly people
Satan challanged God's right to rule, implying that self-rule (or Satan's way) would be better.

What other religion does or teaches ALL these things? Sure, one could take issue with the calcualtions surrounding 1914, "this generation", the 144,000, the logic of avoiding certain celebrations and holidays, any specific explanation of the book of Revelation or Issiah, any specific occurance of the name Jehovah in the Christan Greek scriptures being what was in the original text, etc. It could very well be that some or many of these things may be inaccurate and in time be changed. But in the end, the 12 things I numbered (which isn't neccessarily an exhuastive list for me), seem to be undisputible and no other organization believes these same things.

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

So the serious answers I have received are:

There is no God. There is no resurrection, the bible isn't true (or any holy book) so.. eat, drink (i.e. party) for tomorrow we shall die.
Jesus is God (or there is a Trinity), follow Jesus and no specific religion.
Maybe God exists or he doesn't. Maybe death is or isn't the end of it all. Wait and see what happens once you die, but live for the moment as that's the only thing that really matters (similar to #1, but less dogmatic).

My problems with these answers are:

I just cannot accept that we were not created, and therefore that there is no God. It seems logic to conclude that if there is a God then he cares about us (he created us after all).
I think common sense would tell you that God could not be a Trinity. To believe in the Trinity requires belief in the Bible. But nowhere in the bible does it convey the idea that God is a Trinity, without resorting to a few scriptures that require a certain way of translation (when there is more than one possibility). Same goes for the concept that Jesus is God.
What harm is there in living for the future. Say that there is a 1% chance that there is a God, a hope for everlasting life, and God requires a certain way of life. Living a life that displeases God, would result in not recieving everlasting life. One could do that, and perhaps be happy. But in the end he would cease to exist forever. However, if one trys to please God, even if the chances of being right are only 1%, wouldn't it be worth it in the end if he was right? Compared to the one that lived only for the momemnt, and did not do what God requires?

Lastly, someone contended that to be happy all we really need is:

Surround oneself with loved ones
Have a nice home
Travel a little
Eat well
Do things to help others
Find interesting things to do

Why must it be that these types of things cannot be achieved or obtained while one is inside a religion, such as JWs? As regards JWs, going to meetings, studying, and field service, and the like account for how much time out of the week? 10 hours or so for a publisher? 25 if one is a pioneer? How is it that 10-25 hours a week prevents one from achieving said things? If JWs are right, wouldn't it be worth the 10-25 hours of effort per week? Or even more for that matter?

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

If God was truly a god of love, don't you think he would have given us something better than an ancient book that everyone argues about? How about some direct involvement? People want to compare God to a loving father yet when a human father disappears and doesn't support his kids, he's called a deadbeat dad or worse. So how is God better than that?

This assumes that the bible is not inspired by God. If the bible is inspired, then it is all we need for guidence. The reason for arguing about the Bible would then be because of bias towards what the bible says because of a person's world view. But at some point the bible should be clear enough to have the "truth" become aparant, at least on important issues such as hellfire, immortality of the soul, the trinity, God's purpose for us, etc. For other things, like any verse that can be translate one of two ways, will always have two camps translating it differently, based on bias. So using that verse to prove anthing is moot, because of the bias in translation.

If it isn't inspired then what book is? If there is no inspired book, then that leads to questioning if God does not exists, and thus the other option I've been talking about.

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

Snowbird, Wobble you both epitomize my original "issue"

A) There is a God (thus hope) B) There is no God (and no hope)

We've already discussed option B, so looking at option A, if there is a God then there is some interesting logic to consider:

There are a ton of religions, many believing some polar-opposite things.
For the "polar-opposite" beliefs, only one can be true.
Therefore, wouldn't it make sense that there would be at least one religion that would have most of it's biggest beliefs be the valid version? Don't make this about why JWs would or wouldn't fit this category. I'm looking at this at a higher religion-agnostic level.

290

What hope is there then?

by sayitsnotso in

if jws don't have the truth; if there is no paradise earth; if there is no end of this system; if death is all there is, then what hope do we have to look forward too?.

sayitsnotso

"If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die." - 1 Corithians 15:32

Is this the advice you guys are really giving?