Posts by C0ntr013r

14

How to get JWs to listen and REALLY think about TTATT...

by C0ntr013r in

i have been trying to discuss and reason with jws about their beliefs for some time now and it usually ends in "agree to disagree".

i just don't feel like i am getting anywhere, they get their guard up super easy and will dismiss anything no matter how logical or factual.. so the other day i tried another tactic, instead of arguing for another point of view i started to agree with them.

this made them much more talkative and open, their guard went away somewhat.

C0ntr013r

Crazyguy

I have tried the other ways and they have not worked, so I thought it would be worth a shot. Since the outcome felt positive I wanted to share it, it really felt like the JW where thinking about it. They probably wont tell you but if they pause and consider, that is more progress than I usually see.

Asking questions that make them think has in my experience mostly made them put up their guard and dismiss everything you say. It is hard to ask a question that makes them question the validity of their religion without having the question labeled as "apostate thinking".

I don't think it will add to their delusion unless they can't see the problem with their own logic, hence the person has to be somewhat intelligent. I am not telling them that I believe as they do but that I agree with their flawed reasoning. And trying to point out that it is flawed so they see it themselves.

One way of thinking about it is that I become the defender of their religion(doing a really bad job at it of course) and they start looking for holes in it, because you are presenting holes for them to find. It is not this blatant but it is similar.

8

Funny JW cartoon

by Funchback in

sorry if others have posted this video already.

i have been away a while...maybe i'm late to the party!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_pqu0bln74.

C0ntr013r

These are funny! There are more of these videos on the makers channel.

14

How to get JWs to listen and REALLY think about TTATT...

by C0ntr013r in

i have been trying to discuss and reason with jws about their beliefs for some time now and it usually ends in "agree to disagree".

i just don't feel like i am getting anywhere, they get their guard up super easy and will dismiss anything no matter how logical or factual.. so the other day i tried another tactic, instead of arguing for another point of view i started to agree with them.

this made them much more talkative and open, their guard went away somewhat.

C0ntr013r

Ding

I don't think I would. Since 1914/607 is based on misinformation and not logical thinking.

I would probably ask them how it can be said that Israel was desolated for 70 years when Nebuzaradan brought 700 more Jews to Babylon in Nebuchadnezzar’s 23 year (5 years after 607). (Jeremiah 52:28-30) And if they agree with that you can show them from Jeremiah that it was actually 70 years for Babylon (Jeremiah 29:10), not 70 years of desolation. Then you can use the bible to prove that Jerusalem fell 587.

Good YouTube series that explains it all in detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T826mTyle7Q

The method in my OP is dealing with logical problems, not factual once.

14

How to get JWs to listen and REALLY think about TTATT...

by C0ntr013r in

i have been trying to discuss and reason with jws about their beliefs for some time now and it usually ends in "agree to disagree".

i just don't feel like i am getting anywhere, they get their guard up super easy and will dismiss anything no matter how logical or factual.. so the other day i tried another tactic, instead of arguing for another point of view i started to agree with them.

this made them much more talkative and open, their guard went away somewhat.

C0ntr013r

I have been trying to discuss and reason with JWs about their beliefs for some time now and it usually ends in "agree to disagree". I just don't feel like I am getting anywhere, they get their guard up super easy and will dismiss anything no matter how logical or factual.

So the other day I tried another tactic, instead of arguing for another point of view I started to agree with them. This made them much more talkative and open, their guard went away somewhat. I let them control the conversation which went from one topic to the next whenever it became unconformable. (my goal was not to win a debate or have them agree with me)

The trick I came up with was to expose their fallacies but then agree with the conclusion. It is like a respectful and serious mocking.

Example:

Me: "So the food from the governing body is only from God if it is true? And Jehovah let them make the mistake if it is not true? That makes sense, Jehovah himself would not make a mistake. That is a good way to know if it is actually from God :)

*JW staring into noting for a little while*

JW: "Yes... Well, maybe Jehovah want to trick the demons by letting the governing body make mistakes?

Me: "Yeah, that makes sense. That way Jehovah can outsmart them and win! :)

*more silence*

JW: "Well, the demons probably think they can win but they really can't"

Me: "Oh yeah, you are right. I did not think of that"

JW: "Yeah..."

*JW changing the subject*

This method was used whenever I could think of a good way to expose their flawed thinking through the entire conversation.

I felt the conversation was very fruitful and pleasant. Instead of me asking the difficult questions and arguing for them the JW asked them of himself. I just kept on pointing out how ridiculous his view was by agreeing with him. It was hard to do but I agreed with pretty much everything he said, I am not so sure he did the same :P

I do believe that the person has to be somewhat intelligent to see the problems for themselves and you most not let them know that you are "mocking" them.

I have not tried this extensively so I don't know what kind of results it will yield but my first experience was positive so I felt like sharing it with you guys, maybe some of you will have some use for this "method" ;)

35

Are JWs trying to make dysfunctional kids and destroy their ability to live normal lives?

by C0ntr013r in

are jws trying to make dysfunctional kids that wont "fit" in normal society so they will "return to jehovah"?

because there have been many stories about young people who have been out in the world only to find how bad it was and how correct the org was.. a good jw kid with "good" jw parents will have many big issues, some examples:.

fear of demons (fear, misfit).

C0ntr013r

Xanthippe

That was my thoughts exactly! +1

35

Are JWs trying to make dysfunctional kids and destroy their ability to live normal lives?

by C0ntr013r in

are jws trying to make dysfunctional kids that wont "fit" in normal society so they will "return to jehovah"?

because there have been many stories about young people who have been out in the world only to find how bad it was and how correct the org was.. a good jw kid with "good" jw parents will have many big issues, some examples:.

fear of demons (fear, misfit).

C0ntr013r

"There are also young Witnesses taking advantage of community college education and in my area a few going for their Registered Nurse license. So the picture of young people in the Org. is not one that is easily defined."

I agree and my point is that if the parents are very devout and the congregation is "spiritual" the children are going to have a hard time. If the congregation/parents are more secular and tolerant it will help the kids take less "damage".

35

Are JWs trying to make dysfunctional kids and destroy their ability to live normal lives?

by C0ntr013r in

are jws trying to make dysfunctional kids that wont "fit" in normal society so they will "return to jehovah"?

because there have been many stories about young people who have been out in the world only to find how bad it was and how correct the org was.. a good jw kid with "good" jw parents will have many big issues, some examples:.

fear of demons (fear, misfit).

C0ntr013r

"JW kids don't stand a chance unless they recognize how much and exactly what is wrong with their culture and upbringing and make conscious changes to how they function in the real world; just so they can function in the real world."

I think it is really rare that someone wakes up on their own, most of us either; got stumbled, fell through the cracks or saw/heard something. If the parents and the congregation do a really "good" job with the kids the chances of them waking up are very slim. And as the years go by it all becomes ingrained in them; the way of thinking, the way of living etc, until they cant leave...

35

Are JWs trying to make dysfunctional kids and destroy their ability to live normal lives?

by C0ntr013r in

are jws trying to make dysfunctional kids that wont "fit" in normal society so they will "return to jehovah"?

because there have been many stories about young people who have been out in the world only to find how bad it was and how correct the org was.. a good jw kid with "good" jw parents will have many big issues, some examples:.

fear of demons (fear, misfit).

C0ntr013r

Are JWs trying to make dysfunctional kids that wont "fit" in normal society so they will "return to Jehovah"? Because there have been many stories about young people who have been out in the world only to find how bad it was and how correct the ORG was.

A good JW kid with "good" JW parents will have many big issues, some examples:

Fear of demons (fear, misfit)

Fear of Armageddon (fear,misfit)

Trying to be different (isolation, misfit)

No holidays (misfit, isolation)

Deprived sexuality (porn, masturbation, premarital sex, impure thoughts) (misfit, guilt, shame)

Confessing shameful "sins" to elders (guilt, shame)

Most of the entertainment is bad (video games, movies, music) (misfit, isolation, guilt, shame)

No friends outside the congregation (fear, isolation, guilt, shame)

Educating them about science with logical fallacies and lies (misinformation)

Teaching them to fear anything that is not JW approved (Satan controls the world) (fear, isolation, misfit)

Be happy when someone is bullying or mistreating them for JWs sake (isolation, misfit, shame)

Preach to their worldly friends (if they have any) to either convert them or scare them away (isolation)

No higher education (isolation, misfit, shame)

No sports (isolation, misfit, shame)

This and more is a perfect mixture of; [isolation, misfit, guilt, fear, shame, misinformation] that is going to make a very awkward child who is going to have big problems if they try to enter normal society, especially if they don't know TTATT. That is why the fear of doubts and fear of apostate are enforced so strongly, even if someone leaves the person might never dare to research the JWs online and will therefor suffer for all the damage they took growing up.

The goal is probably to get people that leave to come back because of all the guilt and how misplaced the feel.

Just imagine this persons view of the "world". Then consider the view a person from the "world" must have of such a person. IMO they are setting the kids up to fail in normal society so the can keep all their members. This is true for adults too but it is much more potent when the victim is a child.

What do you guys think? Is this designed to remove the ability for young people to have normal lives and make them dependent on the ORG or is it a side effect of the Watchtower leaders self delusion?

6

Will Anything at The Convention Make Those That Are In Start To Question Anything?

by disillusioned 2 in

my husband, as far as i know, has never seen any of the gb.

with all the videos on at the convention showing the gb speaking, is there anything that would make him think wth!.

he thinks the gb are special, appointed by jehovah, that god speaks to them and imparts special knowledge.

C0ntr013r

Sadly I don't think so, there where some cleverly told lies but it would not stumble someone who does now know they are lies, which require researching the JWs online...

Also some contradictions but I don't think anyone would pick up on it without trained critical thinking skills, which most JWs lack and are discouraged from using. A good JW will attribute any of these things to "human error" and it will not lead to doubt. You also have to remember that JWs don't pay super much attention to what is actually said, we who know TTATT are thinking about what is said and questioning it, they simply buy it without a second glance and so they will not see the "questionable things" unless someone brings them up and then they will just come up with excuses for whatever was said.

They listen to this propaganda for many hours each week, it is no wonder they zone out and don't really pay attention to what is said.

I remember when I was young, I wanted to really find out if it was true. So I started paying attention to every word that was said and apply critical thinking to it, that is when the cracks appeared. Same with the literature, and my parents sometimes understood the problem with what was said but would just shrug it of as "human error".

It is funny that I was the one who really listened at the conventions, read every scripture in context and made a lot of notes while many of the other kids in my age where talking to each other, joking, walking around a lot etc. Some where trying to pay attention but it is very hard to concentrate for so many hours, especially when the speaker is boring and nothing interesting happening for a few hours. And now, they are still in the "truth" while I am not...

I am telling this because if they are in JW mode at the convention, they are going to nod along with pretty much anything that is said no matter how stupid or crazy. There are exceptions of course, hopefully your husband is one :)

6

Regional Conventiona Stockholm

by InquiryMan in

close to 400 got baptized at the regional convention in stockholm attended by more than 50,000 witnesses from norway, sweden, denmark, iceland as well as greenland and faroe islands..

C0ntr013r

I attended all three days.

Friday: 48,986 and 49,493

Saturday: 48,414 and 47,344

Sunday: 50,456 and 50,032

Average attendance: 49,120.8

Baptized: 394

0,802%

(I have the different country stats if anyone is interested)