Posts by C0ntr013r

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

C0ntr013r

CalebInFloroda

Sure, either is fine.

I guess the conversation kind of just happened? :P

You can reply in a new thread or via PM, whichever you prefer :)

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

C0ntr013r

CalebInFloroda

I am a very curious person who want to understand and know. I hope you don't think that I was trying to find faults in your religion. Nor that I am trying learning more because I want to convert to Judaism.

I simply ask because I have a inquiring mind and I apply logic, critical thinking and reason to it all, to better understand the world I live in. I guess that is why the JWs could not keep me trapped forever :P

You are probably right, I don't know more about Jews then what I learned in school. I know some of your customs, holidays, rules etc. What I don't know is why... Why do they; do, think, reason the way they do. You have given me great insight into the "Jewish mind" and I find it fascinating.

It’s very two-dimensional in that what you ask begins to contradict itself in other questions.

Since I am not asking the question from my own point of view, but asking from different angels and views, many of which contradict each other, the questions are going to contradict each other.

I sometimes confuse people I discuss with because they think that I believe the view I am arguing from, when I am simply exploring the idea from another angel or belief system.

One way of thinking about it is; I am trying to understand your beliefs, not compare them to my own.

Learn from the atheists on this board who have been atheists for some time. They are happy. They are healthy. They are secure.

Are you implying that i lack these things? I don't consider myself atheist, I know most atheist are agnostic. I consider myself "just" agnostic if that makes any sense.

It might seem like I am very interested in God/Judaism but the truth is that I don't think any more about those things than any other topic, I am simply curious.

you have to understand that the steps of logic will sometimes be in reverse from Western logic.

Now, that is something I don't understand :P

Btw, why do you think I am a westerner?

And finally Judaism can seem contradictory sometimes because Judaism deals with life—and life can be contradictory sometimes.

Do you think life can have logical contradiction, if so. How?

This ain’t no Jehovah’s-Witness-Watchtower-Governing-Body religion. This is Judaism. It ain’t got no easy answers for everything. It’s about life. Life ain’t got no easy answers.

The answers themselves are not the most interesting, I am more interested in how you think and reason, what is the thought process behind etc.

Maybe my motives where unclear and I apologize if that is important.

But I am afraid the more answers I give you, the more you are going to be confused. You sound like you might need to research Judaism a bit more.

Don't get me wrong, just because I don't understand you reasoning in some areas does not mean that I have not learned a great deal from you. I probably need to research Judaism to understand where you are coming from, maybe some of it is culture and have to be experienced first hand. Not just read about on a forum.

Imo, sharing perspectives is how we grow as humans.

Lastly I would like to share I saying I came up with when I wrote this reply, I think it kind off fits:

Once you understand how someone thinks, you will be able to think like them.
/C0ntr013r

If you want to continue to "educate" me in your views I am happy to learn. But if you don't find it "fruitful" that is okay too :)

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

C0ntr013r

A lot of Jews say “HaShem” when referring to G-d. “HaShem” is Hebrew for “The Name.” That’s pretty easy.

You say one of the reasons you don't write it down is because it could be missuses.

the name “God” might be destroyed as refuse

What is the reason for not saying the name, even quietly in a prayer?

As for repetition in prayer, I have no more to offer.
I have no personal opinions about this, actually.

I was merely curious about your point of view, thank you for your insight!

Remember unlike Christians, Jews are not bound to accept the written text as literal or to avoid looking at it critically.

But then what is stopping you from picking and choosing what God ordered and what people just attributed to him?

Some "Christians" interpret it literally, but that can be because they want to be consistent. Sure your interpretation can come from context, but when there is no clear indicator. How do you "unbind" yourself fom looking at it literally?

But you can try to find the good in anything and adopt what works for you.

Do you believe that the positive impact a interpretation can have on your life trumps the true message?

So the fact that Jesus may have been a prophet doesn’t mean that I also have to think he is the Messiah.

But if he was a prophet from your God, would that not make him just as important as Jeremiah or Elijah? Would not your connection to him be more than the connection between Mormons and JWs?

Jews don’t go around thinking about what they don’t believe about Jesus.
But I also believe that how the Christians interpreted Jesus of Nazareth was incorrect.

So you have studied Jesus enough to deem Christians interpreted him incorrect? But you don't think he is important so you don't think about how he could preform miracles?

I am sorry if I am blunt but I don't understand how you can combine these; to me, contradictory ideas.

I don’t even believe in a personal Messiah as being the fulfillment of Jewish expectations.

If another "prophet" like Elijah preached a personal Messiah? Would that be different?

It is the entire NRSV New Testament text with footnotes, commentary, and study articles from Jewish sources regarding the material.

Sounds a bit "heavy" for me atm :P

Lastly, no. I don’t blame Christians as a whole for the Holocaust.
My blame was on these so-called members of Christendom, the nations that either did something or failed to do something. But I can’t call to blame people who weren’t alive then or Christians as a whole.

kinda makes it hard for me to accept the claims about Jesus in the New Testament...but that's just me.

But you see a connection between Jesus and the holocaust that makes you turned off by Jesus?

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

C0ntr013r

The custom is not to expose something holy to the possibility of being mistreated if possible.

Very interesting, never knew this. What about saying the words as you mentioned in your first answer?

Since it is not pronouncing the Name, and in fact not writing it in Hebrew

Or writing/saying it in Hebrew?

Their babbling probably means their reciting a long list of divine names, hoping that one of them will force a response from the deity.

Interesting, thank you for the insight!

Do you think Psalm 118 is bad? It uses repetition. Should we avoid and maybe even remove this Psalm because of this?

We probably see things quite differently when it comes to scriptures being "good" or "bad".

NIV (Psalm 118:10-12)
10All the nations surrounded me,
but in the name of the Lord I cut them down.
11They surrounded me on every side,
but in the name of the Lord I cut them down.
12They swarmed around me like bees,
but they were consumed as quickly as burning thorns;
in the name of the Lord I cut them down.

I think killing nations in the name of God might be considered "bad".

As for repetition in praying being good or bad, I think the problem with repetition of words or motions in worship is that it easily becomes mundane and "only another habit". If you repeat because you really mean it, that is one thing. But if you do so because you are used to it or because it is written that way in a psalm, that is when I think it could be considered "bad" because it is not from the heart anymore.

I am agnostic so when I write this I am simply sharing my opinion of how I think worship should be conducted if there is a God.

and tried to make the circumstances fit their preconception.

I got the same feeling when I read the NT after waking up, which makes me question the validity of what is written.

None of this makes them the Messiah in Jewish theology anymore than Jesus.

But if you think Jesus was a prophet, that would mean what he said was from God? And when he told his apostles that he was the Messiah that must have been true. Or he lied but then he would have lost Gods blessing.

NIV (Matthew 16:16-17)
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

You are probably aware that the idea that Jesus was the Messiah and Gods only son where present among the church fathers and have been a core belief since then. The Idea that Jesus is part of the God head is not new either, no matter how much the JWs want it to be otherwise :P

So how can you believe he might have been a prophet?

If you want a really close view on practically what I think about the New Testament, read The Jewish Annotated New Testament.

Is it available online? And is it a long read? :P

(as well as wrong views about atheists, Catholics, Mormons, tuna fish, the paying of taxes, homosexuality and tight pants, etc.)

Amen! xD

even if my views may not be fully acceptable by some or may need adjustments themselves.

With that attitude it wont matter what you believe, you are intellectually free and that is all that matters imo.

The fact that this ushered in a 2000-year "Messianic Age " where Jews were persecuted, tortured, expelled from country after country, and then thrown into concentration camps by Christian nations in an attempt to wipe us off the face of the planet kinda makes it hard for me to accept the claims about Jesus in the New Testament...but that's just me.

Do you attribute the holocaust to Christians? I have heard people say that since the German soldiers had: "Gott mit uns" on there belts it should be.

However, if you look into their practices it was a lot like a cult.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism
Historians, political scientists and philosophers have studied Nazism with a specific focus on its religious and pseudo-religious aspects.[1] It has been debated whether Nazism would constitute a political religion, and there has also been research on the millenarian, messianic, and occult or esoteric aspects of Nazism.

I don't think it should be but that is my opinion, I can understand you have "problems" with Jesus if you think his followers did that to your people.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

C0ntr013r

CalebInFloroda

Interesting, thank you for your detailed response!

I actually thought about the JWs use of the divine name when I was "waking up". They named themselves it, they use it many times, they put it in the NT without basis and so on. It has become mundane because of it, you can even do "innocent" jokes about God using his name... And everyone uses is when they talk about JW, not uncommonly saying disrespectful things about Jehovah or deliberate pronouncing it wrong. And I guess that is one of the consequences of using it so much, they talk about not giving reproach to Jehovah's name but somehow they manage to do it themselves by using it so much... Here, people are writing things like: "jehoober" and that is probably because of the JWs over use of Jehovah imo.

So if I understand you correctly, you believe that the "name" Elohim is more holy than the tetragrammaton? Or is it different depending on what language you write it in? Or if you speak it?

“When you are praying, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard because of their many words."

Why do you think this is referring to repetition? To me it sounds more like we should mean every word when we pray. Not just say a lot of words to make the prayer "impressive".

"The repetition “as the Gentiles do” has to do with uttering divine names of deities."

Why? Could it not be that Jesus is referring to their use of; pointless word, many words or lack of sincerity?

Reading your post I could not help to wonder, do you think that the NT is accurate?

If not, how do you know what Jesus actually said or didn't say and what he actually meant?

If you do, how can you not think he was from God? He resurrected dead, rose from the grave himself etc.

Or do you think only some of it is true? In that case, how do you pick which parts to believe?

Or do you simply use the NT to point out problems with the JWs doctrines without believing a word of it yourself?

25

An interesting theory on Stephen Lett

by joe134cd in

interesting theory i thought on stephen lett.

if anything i would of thought tomo3 would of caused them more grief with his comments.. http://insidethewatchtower.com/governing-body/stephen-lett-dumped-from-governing-body/.

C0ntr013r

During the RCs last part where Lett was introducing the new movie, he was giving some "spoilers" about the progression of the RNWT in my language. He jokingly said something like:

"If I tell you any more there might soon be six on the governing body"

Everyone laughed.

63

How the Watchtower Screws Up Your View of Scripture

by CalebInFloroda in

while i do not argue the stand of atheism (because as a jew i find it totally logical and acceptable), i have noticed that there are odd carryover preconceptions about scripture that some hold as axiomatic about the bible (at least the hebrew texts), misconceptions that have nothing to do with the jewish scriptures themselves.. so regardless of what you may think of scripture, whether you believe it is of g-d or not, i thought some of you might enjoy a reference to see how much the watchtower teaching on scripture might still be influencing the conclusions you are making today...at least about the tanakh.

jews read their texts acknowledging the following:.

1. no scriptural concept of original sin.

C0ntr013r

Just curious, you type G-d out of respect? Because God is so holy? Why did you write YHWH, is that not much more sacred? That is after all as close as you get to the personal name of the Judeo-Christian God. Or am I misunderstanding you?

8

Someone in the Watchtower writing department has a promising career in comedy.

by Island Man in

"as servants of jehovah, we are not among those who are misled.

we know that the devil is real, for it was satan who spoke to eve through a serpent.

" - watchtower, may 15, 2015, page 15, #3.. someone should do a meme depicting a nutter/paranoid/delusional character saying this.

C0ntr013r

berrygerry

Got me thinking about this pic:

JW logic at it's finest :P

11

Satan Let Out After 1000 Years, Makes Sense... or no?

by freemindfade in

long before i woke up as a born in, this never, i mean never ever had any good explanation for me, or not even a bad one.

the jws seem to have an explanation for everything even if it is bat shit cray, but the logic to this i have never been given.

if you ask did god put satan there to test/tempt whatever adam and eve, the answer would be of course not!

C0ntr013r

"I would rather bind joke-hova and its filthy angels, and leave them bound forever. Let those things suffer. There would be no need to unbind them after 1,000 years. They want us all enslaved, why shouldn't they suffer forever?"

Finite wrongdoing can never warrant a infinite punishment ;)

Unless you believe in eternal hellfire....

11

Satan Let Out After 1000 Years, Makes Sense... or no?

by freemindfade in

long before i woke up as a born in, this never, i mean never ever had any good explanation for me, or not even a bad one.

the jws seem to have an explanation for everything even if it is bat shit cray, but the logic to this i have never been given.

if you ask did god put satan there to test/tempt whatever adam and eve, the answer would be of course not!

C0ntr013r

Other than the idea to "weed out" the "bad" people from paradise as some sort of cleansing process, I don't think they have any reason for it. Except that they interpret the bible that way...