GreyWolf

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Posts by GreyWolf

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  12

  New Book Argues That Jehovah is Jesus

  by Cold Steel in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

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  GreyWolf

  I think this is a thesis that won't hold up if it is correctly reported here. Genesis uses the name Jehovah or Yahweh along with the title Elohim. So Yahweh Elohim is one God. The term Elohim is used for Yahweh, false gods and goddesses, angels and even men, as Jesus pointed out. It is true there is room for confusion in Genesis where angels appear to Abraham and one is called Yahweh. But it is generally suggested that an angel appears as Yahweh's representative and is called Yahweh because he speaks for him. Justin Martyr deals with this matter at length in his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew.

  I do not defend the idea that Jesus was (is) Michael, but that is not just a silly Watchtower idea. John Calvin taught it and so did the Adventists. It is also in The Shepherd of Hermas, one of the apostolic fathers of the second century that almost made it into the New Testament.

  GreyWolf
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  7

  tribute to a very humble man >RAY

  by mouthy in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  http://youtu.be/0axx-av7zrc?a you will have to copy and paste this into a google search............sorry i can't do it some other way.oops i see where betsy already posted it sorry folks!!!!!

  old age

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  GreyWolf

  What was remarkable about Raymond Franz was his humility. He was a very popular individual in the Watchtower, and when he came out many hoped he would lead a revolt against the organization. He did not, because he believed that Christ alone is head of the church. He was saddened that so many ex-JWs became atheists or agnostics or simply became secular nationalists. Although his first book did an extremely important work in exposing the Watchtower organization, his second book, In Search of Christian Freedom is in many ways more important.

  Besides his humility, Ray Franz also tried to be fair. Although he had every reason to resent his uncle, he defended him when he felt he was being attacked unfairly. He also refused to call the organization a "cult." He regarded the term as a rather meaningless hate term which shouldn't be bandied about. While he felt that that there was a lot wrong with the organization, and organizations in general, he felt that one's criticisms of it should be as objective as possible. Too bad most ex-JWs haven't learned from him.

  I will always revere the memory of this man. I have learned much from him and enjoyed knowing him personally. I feel he was and is one of the saints.

  GreyWolf
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  3

  It's not just 607 BCE

  by Doug Mason in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  its not just 607 bce.. to prove that joseph rutherford was anointed by jehovah god in 1919 ce, the governing body of jehovahs witnesses needs to tick every one of the following boxes as proven without question.. o nebuchadnezzar did go mad for seven years.. o the fulfilment upon nebuchadnezzar was itself a prophecy.. o the length of each year that nebuchadnezzar experienced madness was a prophetic year of 360 days.. o the state of a heathen king symbolised the state of jehovahs kingdom.. o each day of nebuchadnezzars 2520 day madness predicted a 2520 year hiatus in the operation of jehovahs kingdom towards earth.. o this 2520 year hiatus commenced two months after jerusalem was destroyed, when jews entered egypt following the murder of gedaliah.. o the land remained depopulated until jews returned in 537 bce.. o even though the land was now holding people, the seventy years did not end until they dedicated the altar later in 537 bce.. o the land was totally devoid of human habitation and their beasts for over 70 (jewish) years.. o this identifies the date of the starting point of the kingdoms 2520-year hiatus, dating the event as 607 bce.. o the 2520 year hiatus in the operation of jehovahs kingdom government ended in october 1914 ce.. o the restart of jehovahs kingdom rule was proven through people on earth declaring war on one another slightly earlier in august 1914 (instead of 1914 ushering in peace under the zionists , as had been expected by russell).. o the setting up of this kingdom under davids descendant resulted in spirit resurrection of most of his co-rulers.. o the heavenly kingdom government then set about looking for its earthly representative.. o in 1919 ce, jehovahs government selected rutherford as that representative.. o about 1930, rutherford discovered that christs parousia had not taken place in 1874, and amended its date to 1914 ce.. o people on earth can tell that jehovahs kingdom has now started its operation towards earth because of the ravaging wars, earthquakes, pestilences, famines, and murderous, deceitful, evil people that are tearing at the earth.

  the world was at peace before jehovahs kingdom began to rule.. o the governing body inherits the anointing given to rutherford..

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  GreyWolf

  What Doug has done is excellent and needs to be published far and wide. It raises another interesting point, however. The Bible Student/Witnesses, like various Adventist and Plymouth Brethren - and now many fundamentalists - have used the idea of biblical "types" with the greatest abandon and usually without any biblical warrant. Yes, in a few cases the New Testament writers do use types. This is particularly true in Galatians and Hebrews. But such usage is rather spare. So, going beyond what is written is nothing but the overuse of imagination and to call it biblical is more than a slight stretch. But it underlies the entire premillennialist nonsense that affects most Evangelicals as well as the Witnesses. Another concept that needs to be abandoned is the year-day theory applied to most biblical prophetic numbers, something that most Evangelicals have done.

  GreyWolf
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  13

  Ever been a Mason? This is important....

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hoping someone has some personal experience with them, and knows what they mean when putting these symbols below on things.

  this is important for all to know, especially in the near future.

  you'll see in below examples how worldwide, even warring countries this is prevelant.

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  GreyWolf

  If you want to believe this sort of thing, have at it. But you are going down after a fat rat and coming up with a very skinny mouse. Masonry is about as dangerous as the girl scouts, and much written about it is hogwash.
• 
  5

  ANOTHER SCAN: Finished Mystery also says Jesus became king in 1878!! See for yourself!!

  by Lady Liberty in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is another scan from the finished mystery...again..supposed "food at the proper time" from christ jesus himself..... 3:16 so then.-"the spring of 1878, corresponding to the date at which our lord assumed the office of king,........".

  actual scan:.

  http://middleman777.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/1918-the-finished-mystery-page-66.jpg.

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  GreyWolf

  My goodness, the 1874, 1878, 1881 dates well well known over the years and were written about by many critics of the Watchtower including ex-Witnesses Timothy White and James Penton. However, most Witnesses, like most people, have little if any historical memory. How many even think about 1975 today? And how many read much of anything except the nonsense from Brooklyn. What the Internet did was make the historical data know more widely, and the Society can't hide much of its dirty linen any longer.

  Many changes came in 1925 when Rutherford published the article Birth of the Nation. He began revising Russell's chronology then. But the year 1874 as the beginning of the parousia wasn't changed till years later. No great announcement was made; the Society simply started to replace 1874 with 1914 and 1878 with 1918. And because Rutherford said Christ had come to his temple in 1918, the Holy Spirit was no longer active! He got information to direct the Society from "lightening flashes in the temple" and from angels (fallen ones, no doubt). When Knorr and Franz came along that teaching was simply forgotten and the Holy Spirit (?) started directing the Society again.

  GreyWolf
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  30

  WOW!! The Finished Mystery SCAN showing Jesus was WORSHIPPED and was THE GOD!!!

  by Lady Liberty in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  unbelievable!!.

  just came across this tidbit from the finished mystery, from the organization, in the early years.

  keep in mind that these bible students were supposedly selected out of all mankind on the earth to feed christs sheep at the proper time, with "spiritual food"...here is some of that "food" that was supposedly from christ himself:.

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  GreyWolf

  Some people here are confused. Evangelicals use the term "Deity" to mean that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and therefore YHWH. No Bible Student ever held that belief. Bible Students, including Russell, held that Jesus in his preexistence was the Logos, the Archangel Michael, and a created god in the Arian sense. But because he had been raised to the position of representative of God the Father as YHWH's king, he could be and was (and is) worshiped by Bible Students. Really, Jesus continued to be worshiped by JWs until the Knorr/Franz era. Freddie probably read the early church Father Origen and decided that Jesus shouldn't be worshiped. (The early Arians in the fourth century worshiped Jesus.)

  The Finished Mystery contains many "gems." In fact, some of the ideas in it are nuttier than the average fruit cake. Interestingly, the 1917 edition prophesied that the churches would fall in the autumn of that year. When they didn't, the next edition indicated that they would fall in 1918. This was discussed in court with Clayton Woodworth when Rutherford and company were charged with violating the Espionage Act. It can be read in the transcript of record of the United States v. Rutherford et al. What is so surprising is that the U.S. government--like the Nazis later--took them so seriously when they could have dismissed them as a small, rather goofy movement. But then, the Pentecostals were in the same boat at the time as conscientious objectors and were being attacked by evangelist Billy Sunday. But then too, the American public was pretty goofy during World War I as well, something that has continued from time to time and seems rather evident right now.

  A couple of other points: There is a picture of a penny in the front of the Finished Mystery. The reason for this was that the book was held to be the penny of Jesus' parable, and it was suggested that Rutherford was the "good man" who gave the penny. When Rutherford expelled the four directors whio took a stand against him and drove them from Bethel in July 1917, Woodworth and the Society began telling the lie that the reason the four directors were dismissed (probably quite illegally) is that they objected to the publication of the Finished Mystery. Interestingly, even the Proclaimers book still teaches that lie despite the fact that Rutherford while under oath in court stated that the Finished Mystery had nothing to do with the directors' dismissal.

  While many Bible Students who broke with Rutherford did not accept the Finished Mystery, some did. For example, the Standfasters who gathered in Oregon, Washington, and British Columbia held fast to the Finished Mystery. They only broke with the Society when Rutherford tried to compromise with the U.S. government by joining in a national day of prayer and by saying it was okay to buy Liberty Bonds for the War. The Standfasters had a magazine called "Old Corn Gems," which is as dull as dishwater. Eventually, they tried to set up a commune on Vancouver Island and built a fish factory. But they fell apart when they nearly starved. One group that grew out of the Standfasters was called the Elijah Voice Society. It was the first group of Bible Students to make a fuss about the flag salute. Rutherford evidently took the idea that saluting the flag was wrong from them.

  GreyWolf
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  13

  Ever been a Mason? This is important....

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hoping someone has some personal experience with them, and knows what they mean when putting these symbols below on things.

  this is important for all to know, especially in the near future.

  you'll see in below examples how worldwide, even warring countries this is prevelant.

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  GreyWolf

  I simply moved, took very ill, and let my dues payments lapse. I enjoyed the lodge where I was but don't have the time or energy to become involved again. If you are so interested in Masonry, there is a great deal of information on the Internet and, also, a great deal on symbolism. Some people make far too much of symbolism, including some Masons. For example a number of people have made a great deal of the winged sun disk on Russell's Studies in the Scriptures and the use of the cross and crown symbol. They think this connects Russell to Egyptian paganism or Masonry. That is nonsense; there are easier ways of understanding these symbols that make more sense.

  GreyWolf
• 
  13

  Ever been a Mason? This is important....

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  hoping someone has some personal experience with them, and knows what they mean when putting these symbols below on things.

  this is important for all to know, especially in the near future.

  you'll see in below examples how worldwide, even warring countries this is prevelant.

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  GreyWolf

  I take it what EndofMysteries wants is for someone to explain the symbolism on American money. If this is not the case, let me know.

  Yes, I have been a Mason and a member of the Blue Lodge. However, I must tell you that most of the things written about Masonry by people who want to attack it and argue falsely that Charles Russell was a Mason spread complete bunk. Masonry generally uses biblical symbolism but doesn't use much if any material from Daniel. The central focus is on King Solomon's temple, but other readings from the Scriptures are used. Besides that, there are symbols taken from the European Enlightenment and there is an emphasis on geometry and reason. Much symbolism on bills and other things is simply not Masonic.

  GreyWolf
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  508

  Most-Ignored Scriptures by JWs

  by Mad Sweeney in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the watchtower has been known for over 130 years as a great scriptural cherry-picker.

  they pick out disparate unrelated verses and combine them to support the wackiest of wacky doctrines.. on the other hand there are many scriptures they almost never address, whether because they contradict wt doctrine or because they simply don't have a clue what they mean or how to spin them to the wt advantage.. one of these is revelation 19:1 that mentions a "great crowd" "in heaven.

  " the only time it is ever brought up it is dismissed.

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  GreyWolf

  Thanks for pointing this out, Mad. Another text the like to ignore is Hebrews 1:11 that shows the physicl heavens and eart will perish. Where will their earthly great crowd be then?

  GreyWolf
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  2

  Cartoons from around the world on catholic church abuse crisis

  by behemot in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  http://blog.cagle.com/daryl/2010/03/31/catholic-church-crisis-and-cartoon-circus/.

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  GreyWolf

  One can understand the anger at Catholicism or at least the hierarchy. But sexual abuse by Catholic clergy has gone on for centuries and only now has it come to public attention in a big way. One can read of seductions in confessionals in the documents of the Mexican Inquisition during the colonial period. But although such things were more common among Catholic clergy than Protestant or Orthodox clerics, there were lots of cases of sexual abuse caused by them too. Whenever men, and sometimes women have power over others, if not watched, they will violate those who are weaker. This happens with clerics, teachers, bosses, professors, etc., etc. Although women are seldom as guilty as men, there are females who violate others sexually. Unfortunately, the concern over child molestation - serious as it is - has taken on some of the aspects of a witch hunt, and sometimes innocent persons have their reputations destroyed unfairly.

  GreyWolf