IsaacJ22

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Posts by IsaacJ22

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  38

  " i was out in the world and belive me!! Its a terrible place! We are so blessed to be in the truth!"

  by highdose in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is an assertion leveled at me recently.

  the speaker has the advantage over me in that i was born and bred in the borg and have only recently jumped ship.. what, can i ask would your responce be to this?.

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  IsaacJ22

  Here's one (hope no one mentioned it yet):

  "Are you trying to convince me, or just yourself?"

  Then stare at them until they come up with a response.
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  25

  Has anyone ever asked a Catholic if they hate us like we are told they do?

  by life is to short in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  every since i was a little kid all i have heard is how the catholic's hate us, how they persecute us, even beat us in some third world country's.

  they insight their members to hate us and pelt us with rocks, tar and feather us, on and on.

  in fact rummer has it that in one small town by us the slit the tires of all the jw's cars in the late 60 when they were holding a ca.

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  IsaacJ22

  I worked for a lady that was a Catholic when I was still a JW. We talked a little about religion once. She seemed completely oblivious to any hostility. I also had Catholic god parents before I was even a JW, and they never even used the term.

  I really doubt they give a darn, unless there should happen to be a lot Catholics and JWs in the same neighborhood. Otherwise, they WTS is like a bug to the Catholic church, isn't it?

  Of course, the Catholics were proselytizing and making converts of all the nations LONG before the WTS.

  I'm not a Catholic (atheist, actually) but I just had to get that in for those who tire of hearing JWs talk about how awesome they are.
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  127

  Disrespect of the Bible

  by brotherdan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am going to get a lot of flack for this post, but i need to do it.

  i want to preface this by saying that i don't judge any of you and i believe in the right of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, including your freedom to not practice one.. however, i'm finding a trend among some ex jws here.

  notice the word "some".

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  IsaacJ22

  Brotherdan, I wanted to let you know that I'm not upset with you over your post. But I did think you were teetering a bit close to the line, and so I had something to say about that. Like others have mentioned, this isn't the KH. I wouldn't want to see you attacked on the board for stating an opinion like that--at worst, you should only be attacked if you attacked first. And I wouldn't say that you attacked us, though I didn't like some of the directions you were going. Like you, I was just speaking up. I tried to be honest, not accusatory or overly reactionary in my response.

  I did want to mention one other thing. I actually think people ask for too much respect when it comes to holy things, or even their ideas/opinions about those holy things or beliefs. If we can't criticize them, then we can't discuss them fully. And if they matter, we should be able to discuss them. That's how I feel about it at least.

  Religion influences people's thinking, even how they vote. So I honestly don't feel that people can ask us to go "hands off" with holy matters. This may sound mean, but in my experience, when people ask for respect for their religion, they're usually asking for deference--not respect. To me, beliefs are just opinions with a lot emotion behind them. And beliefs can be wrong, both factually and--by the standards of others--morally. Everyone should have the right to point that out object. Likewise, we can't ask everyone to see our holy things as holy. That's just not how it works.

  Beliefs do not have feelings or rights; people have feelings and rights, but their opinions must earn respect from others. When we ask for deference/respect simply because someone somewhere thinks something is holy, I believe we are really asking others to put our opinions above their rights to speak out and object. I'm not comfortable doing that to others, even if my feelings get hurt in the process. I would even say we are being a bit too sensitive if we ask this, and we should learn to handle criticism of our beliefs better.

  I'm not saying that to be mean, only pointing out that holy things are part of a much larger world. One man's holy thing is another man's no-big-deal. Ultimately, it is not the holy thing that is being hurt by criticism; it is the feelings of those who see it as holy. And those believers must learn to cope if they wish to interact with others. Don't put your holy thing out there to the world and then demand that no one should criticise. Someone may even point at it and laugh! We need thicker skins than that.

  My JW inlaws often use this excuse to hide from criticism. Not saying that's what you're doing, but several have tried it when I complain about their attempts to reconvert me. Should I be their punching bag and let them ramble on and on about the WTS and Jehovah at my expense? Should I let them use the Bible to whack me over the head whenever they quote from it? Or should I stand up for myself an point out the problems, the flaws, and how none of it is sacred to me? Again, not trying to be mean, only putting the ideas out there and hoping you will see where we critics are coming from.

  So I can't agree with you on this. But I'm not mad about it or at you. Peace! Oh, and sorry for so many long posts.
• 
  127

  Disrespect of the Bible

  by brotherdan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am going to get a lot of flack for this post, but i need to do it.

  i want to preface this by saying that i don't judge any of you and i believe in the right of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, including your freedom to not practice one.. however, i'm finding a trend among some ex jws here.

  notice the word "some".

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  IsaacJ22

  I'm afraid that -- for me at least -- the problems with the Bible outweigh the things which support it. Same story for God, though I'm only speaking for myself there as well. Everybody has the right to believe what they like about both.

  I think the only real thing I would take any issue with in your post is your statements about people throwing out God and Bible because they had a bad religious experience with WTS. I really think you're over simplifying the atheists on the board with that one. A lot of people do this with atheists in general, and it does get a little tough not to roll my eyes when I hear things like that. I can only return your frustration with us with my own frustration at the lack of understanding. To me, and many other atheists, it seems like some believers rush to judge us. Naturally, I'd prefer it if you didn't do that.

  I can't drone on about my experiences and path to atheism here, but I can tell you that I continued to believe in God for years after I left the WTS and was fully aware that there are thousands of other religions out there. I could have chosen any of them. If the WTS wasn't the true religion, then I reasoned that there was sense in blaming God for my bad experiences. He had nothing to do with it. I didn't think that God owed my anything special. Even if it was the true religion, I knew I wasn't going to blame God for any of it.

  In fact, I prayed about my decision to stop attending meetings because I was still sorting things out in my head; I wanted God to know that if I'd made the wrong call and the WTS really was his religion that I was very, very sorry, but couldn't deal with it anymore. I continued to observe the Society's teachings in other areas, like avoiding holidays and politics, for years after I'd left. All because I still believed. So no, I didn't hate God or blame God for my WTS experiences.

  The reality is -- for me -- that my bad religious experience made me more cautious about religion and beliefs. It made me look before I leaped into anything new, and I began doing a lot of research to figure out what had gone wrong. Was it me, or the WTS? Was I right for leaving? If I was right, now what?

  As I dug deeper, I began to learn -- unintentionally -- that there were solid reasons for doubt. For me, the arguments of atheists seemed far stronger than those offered by believers. As the years went past, I eventually realized that I just didn't believe in any of it any more. There was no bitterness or animosity behind that decision. Ten years had passed since I'd left the WTS by then, so my feelings about the organization were old news. The only real gripes I had left were with JWs who felt entitled to aggressively evangelize to me. If not for my in-laws and writing articles about it, I really couldn't care less about the WTS these days. It's not like I think my lack of faith is going to even the score with God or anything like that. That doesn't even make sense to me.

  Many athiests never threw the baby out with the bathwater; we simply changed our minds about God and all other gods. And that's all. We decided that the evidence was too strong and lost our faith in religion due to reason, not emotion. Our bad experiences may have encouraged us to dig deeper and accept the possiblity that maybe there aren't any gods, but that's about it in my case.

  Please don't make harsh assumptions about us. I try to do better than that by believers as best I can, and really appreciate it when believers do the same for us. Even if you can't understand it, I do appreciate it when believers give us the benefit of the doubt.

  No hard feelings. Thanks for reading.
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  12

  Is This Pretty Typical?

  by bazackward in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so some guy on youtube with user name "sweetmikser" posted a bunch of videos about the 2010 convention drama.

  my grandma mentioned how much she loves the drama, so i thought i'd see what she was talking about.

  wow!

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  IsaacJ22

  Ah! I've got it. Post this:

  "Man, way to be long suffering. Not mention turning the other cheek."

  You can be morally superior and right at the same time!
• 
  12

  Is This Pretty Typical?

  by bazackward in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so some guy on youtube with user name "sweetmikser" posted a bunch of videos about the 2010 convention drama.

  my grandma mentioned how much she loves the drama, so i thought i'd see what she was talking about.

  wow!

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  IsaacJ22

  Bazackward, I've found that there are several ways of handling this. You could point out that he is, himself (or herself) an ignorant shmuck turd for overreacting so badly. I mean, seriously...talk about being overly sensitive. This is the kind of person who got their ears plucked a lot in high school. Ya know?

  Or you could point out that some people think Abel was a Catholic, or a Methodist, etc... I'd suggest telling him that you thought Abel was a caveman because you're an evolutionist, or tell him that you thought Abel was a gay man because you're gay (not saying you're really gay) and watch him explode all over your post like a maniac. Then he'll be back every day of his life after that, waiting anxiously (nervously?) for a reply. From there, you could destroy him at your leisure.

  Whatever you say, make sure it's funny as hell. For me, at least. Then post it here.

  You could also check out his Yahoo profile and just make fun of it. I nearly did that to someone who made fun of my "Zippy the wonder rat" submission, but decided it wasn't worth it. (I am still waiting for the proper time to strike.)

  Not sure if I would completely let it go. Then again, I am filled with hate in real life, spending most of my time writing manifestos in dark rooms. Ya know. Maybe you shouldn't listen to me... Maybe.
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  15

  For those growing up with a non-JW parent

  by JWinprotest in

  1. social
  2. family

  just curious to hear from those that have gone through a similar situation.

  my dad was extremely opposed to jw's and went balistic when my mom converted.

  he did everything in his power to keep us from becoming witnesses, (forcing us to stay home from meetings, forcing us to go to church with him on holidays) but i think that worked against him, because we viewed it as persecution.. here is my question though.

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  IsaacJ22

  I agree with Changeling. You should try to tell him if there's any possibility of doing it. No judgments if you can't/won't - I haven't spoken to my father in years (nothing to do with the WTS), so I certainly understand if things have reached a point where that just isn't going to happen.

  Also, I think you're mother had problems that went deeper than just keeping you in the WTS, IMHO. My Dad cheated too, but sometimes, spouses stray for reasons other than sex. Not pretending to know anything about your family, just saying that his cheating on your mother may not be a reason to harbor ill will against him. That's your call, of course. Could be a chance for a new beginning. I would try with my own Dad, but sadly, there's no real chance of that.

  Just a thought. :)
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  33

  Bitterness

  by LostGeneration in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  how do you overcome this?

  i just got done reading isocf and toward the end ray warns against bitterness.

  i guess i just can't agree with that.

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  IsaacJ22

  LostGeneration,

  One of the things exxers tend to feel bitter about is the loss of time due to the years they spent in the WTS. Why continue to spend time being bitter about them? Let the WTS go. If you don't, you're still letting it run your life. Focus on something else, like the other exxers in this forum, or on the things you want to do now.

  Remember, you are who are in part because of that time. Writers must be willing to throw out sections of prose--even entire paragraphs of a novel--if it makes the story better. They must also learn that those hours of work weren't wasted; they were necessary to make the final product even better. Likewise, your time in the WTS wasn't truly wasted. It helped make you who you are. Hey, without it, a JW might come to your door and convert you this very day, forcing you to waste the rest of your life. Now, you're too smart for that.

  That's how I look at it, at least.
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  29

  The revolving door and the hardcore ones

  by dgp in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i understand that the number of people who join the wt is roughly equal to the number of people who leave.

  there's a small difference, overall, but in some countries the number of those leaving might even be slightly above the number of those joining.

  and this has been a problem for ever.. i would like some insight into the minds of those who stay in, not because of family reasons, not because of fear, old age, parental control, but because they really believe the scam.

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  IsaacJ22

  With a religion like the Society's, you have to bear in mind that its weaknesses are also its strengths. These qualities will always limit its numbers, but will often insure that the ones they do get stay got by the Society.

  1. Sacrifices

  JWs make a lot of sacrifices to the WTS. Their time, their money, even their children's futures. (You thought I was going to say they sacrifice their kids, didn't you?!) There's a point where most people are unwilling to let all those years and all that devotion get thrown away. Even when the org. really misbehaves. The more the Society asks and gets, the less likely the hardliners are to leave. The investment is just too great.

  2. Fear

  But...what if the WTS is right and I do die at Armageddon for leaving it? I've known a lot of Witnesses who are borderline, just barely hanging on to the Society, but they stay associated just in case. Even when the other Witnesses in their congregation look down on them and mistreat them, they're still there, getting 2 hours a month in field service and only making about 4 or 5 meetings in the same time frame. They're just plain scared to leave. So they stay, just in case.

  3. Meaning

  The Society provides a sense of order and purpose to the lives of JWs. You can get that sense of meaning elsewhere, but old habits die hard. JWs -- especially those born and raised in it -- will it hard to feel the same way about another religion's sense of order as they do about this org's. They've been going to 5 meetings a week for years. The hardliners will miss them, the conventions, talking to people door to door...because they're used to it and it makes them feel like they're doing something with their lives.

  4. Family

  The threat of disfellowshipping keeps a lot of people who don't wish to stay in the Tower anyway! They're afraid they'll lose their family and friends, and they have no one else. Good JWs aren't supposed to have "worldly" friends, after all. Plus, their parents are probably Witnesses, and many of their parents were also JWs. So it's part of their personal identity. They don't know anything else. So again, they stay.

  The Atheist Geek
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  126

  Australian brothers VERY negative comments regarding new "generations" ... some leaving Bethel..will this blow up in the Watchtowers face?

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  a brother i spoke with from bethel to me seemed discouraged and lacking zeal latley...he spoke of leaving which shocked me since he was there for decades...he left to get a full time job!!!

  it was his whole reason for living since i've known him!

  others have said the new doctrine of "blended generations" of anionted seeing armagedon is "confusing" or "i just don't get it"...one brother my only close friend is furious and said i qoute..."they seem to be blowing smoke up our ass!

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  IsaacJ22

  I tend to agree with Blondie. I'm sure some people will finally throw up there hands and leave, but the majority will just stay. Problems like this have happened many times before and the WTS is still here. If you're hoping to see the tower fall in your life time, I really wouldn't get my hopes up about this one.

  Still, if you know any Witnesses who are near the fence, this might be enough to put them on it. You might be able to tip them over.

  Beyond that, I wouldn't count on this doing very much. Sorry. :(