JosephAlward

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Posts by JosephAlward

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  32

  Was Jesus a False Prophet?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the bible says that a prophet who predicts something that does not occur is speaking words that the lord did not speak, but that is exactly what jesus did, if you can believe the author of mark.

  here are the relevant verses:.

  "when a prophet speaks in the name of the lord, if the word does not come about or come true, that is a word which the lord did not speak;" (deuteronomy 18:22).

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  JosephAlward

  In regard to Mark's claim that Jesus said that those who believe can drink any poison without harm, Yeru states, "Mark does NOT say that all Christians will do this, but rather some."

  Alward responds:

  I beg to differ. Mark makes it clear that Jesus' words apply to "whoever" believes. Take another look:

  16 WHOEVER believes and is baptized will be saved...And these signs will accompany those who believe...when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 
  27

  Bible Writers Believed the Earth Was Flat

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the best evidence that the bible teaches that the earth is flat is found in the following passages.

  the first is in matthew: .

  "[t]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them".

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  JosephAlward

  Scorpion,

  I've presented an argument to support my view, but all you've done is declare that you don't think my argument is good enough to convince you. At least I've presented a logical argument; you've presented nothing.

  You will have earned the right to request more evidence once you've explained to the forum why you believe my evidence is inadequate. If you don't wish to construct a logical argument rebutting mine, then I will rest my case on the argument I've presented.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 
  32

  Was Jesus a False Prophet?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the bible says that a prophet who predicts something that does not occur is speaking words that the lord did not speak, but that is exactly what jesus did, if you can believe the author of mark.

  here are the relevant verses:.

  "when a prophet speaks in the name of the lord, if the word does not come about or come true, that is a word which the lord did not speak;" (deuteronomy 18:22).

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  JosephAlward

  Scorpion,

  If you're not sure the Bible which describes your god is accurate, how do you know which god it is you have faith in?

  If you allow for the possibility that the original manuscripts have been altered, or have had errors inadvertently introduced into them, how can you be sure the "original manuscripts" describe a god at all? Or, if they do describe a god, how do you know what the attributes of this god are, and that that god is something you would wish to worship?

  How do you know what it is that the god described in this unknowable but "error-free bible" wants from you? Surely you don't want to guess about something this important.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 
  32

  Was Jesus a False Prophet?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the bible says that a prophet who predicts something that does not occur is speaking words that the lord did not speak, but that is exactly what jesus did, if you can believe the author of mark.

  here are the relevant verses:.

  "when a prophet speaks in the name of the lord, if the word does not come about or come true, that is a word which the lord did not speak;" (deuteronomy 18:22).

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• 

  JosephAlward

  Scorpion writes,

  "If you have The New Jerusalem Bible, check the reference on the bottom of the page of Mark 16. You may be a bit surprised that verses 9-20 may have been added to Marks original intent. Yes, I agree with you that the Bible's we have are in error, but I also believe that God did breath inerrant word that was penned, and through the ages tampered with."

  Alward responds:

  Yes, I know about the Mark 16:9-20 verses; they are later additions, not part of the original manuscript.

  Now, as for the original manuscripts being without error: One cannot know what was in them. If you can declare that they were God-breathed and without error, another person can equally well declare that they were riddled with error and were certainly not God-breathed; one might even imagine that those manuscripts contained no reference to a resurrection. You don't want to base your faith on a Bible we cannot be sure even existed, do you?

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 
  27

  Bible Writers Believed the Earth Was Flat

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the best evidence that the bible teaches that the earth is flat is found in the following passages.

  the first is in matthew: .

  "[t]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them".

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• 

  JosephAlward

  Scorpion,

  If you can ask how we could know that the "original manuscripts" contain errors, then one equally well ask how we could know that they contained the story of the resurrection.

  We have to deal with the Bible we have, not a hypothetical Bible in which one could imagine anything whatsoever could be written; to do the latter is to base one's faith on quicksand, an ever-changing foundation of speculation.

  Now, as for your hoped-for further elaboration of my argument: I explained already why I must decline your invitation. It's not enough for you to declare without any argument of your own that you don't think my argument is inadequate and that you want to see more evidence; if such a debate weapon were allowed, any argument could be effortlessly defeated. If you want forum readers to take your objections seriously, you will have to put some effort into constructing a counter-argument that explains exactly why the mountain and tall-tree verses are insufficient to indicate that the Bible writers believed that the Earth was flat.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 
  27

  Bible Writers Believed the Earth Was Flat

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the best evidence that the bible teaches that the earth is flat is found in the following passages.

  the first is in matthew: .

  "[t]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them".

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  JosephAlward

  siegswife writes,

  "As for the people back then believing that the earth was flat, they probably did. Just as they thought that the sun was moving around the earth instead of what we now know to be true. Don't people still only view life from the perspective that they can see it? Does that make their observations any less valid?"

  Alward responds: If the Bible advertised itself as a collection of the opinions and observations of men, then there would be no problem. However, according to the Bible,

  “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching” (2 Timothy 3:16)

  It is obvious, I think, that any Bible passage which conveys an image of a flat earth cannot be "useful for teaching." The Matthew and Daniel passages therefore could not have been "God-breathed." Thus, the author of 2 Timothy was wrong, which means the Bible is in error. If the Bible is in error on one page, it might be in error on every page.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 
  32

  Was Jesus a False Prophet?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the bible says that a prophet who predicts something that does not occur is speaking words that the lord did not speak, but that is exactly what jesus did, if you can believe the author of mark.

  here are the relevant verses:.

  "when a prophet speaks in the name of the lord, if the word does not come about or come true, that is a word which the lord did not speak;" (deuteronomy 18:22).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  JosephAlward

  The Bible says that a prophet who predicts something that does not occur is speaking words that the Lord did not speak, but that is exactly what Jesus did, if you can believe the author of Mark. Here are the relevant verses:

  "When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come about or come true, that is a word which the Lord did not speak;" (Deuteronomy 18:22).

  Jesus said, "These signs will accompany those who believe...if they drink any deadly thing, it will not harm them" (Mark 16:17-18)

  However, it is NOT true that those who believe in Jesus can drink poison without harm, so if Mark is correct and Jesus really said this, Jesus made a prediction that doesn't come true, so this prediction wasn't from the Lord. But, this contradicts 2 Timothy, which says that "all scripture is God-breathed."

  On other hand, if Jesus didn't really say this, then Mark was wrong and the Bible is in error. Thus, either way, the Bible is in error.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 
  15

  Bible Error: Where Did King Josiah Die?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  josiah, king of judah (640-609 b.c.

  ), was installed as king at the age of eight.

  josiah attempted to restore the kingdom of david and was opposed by pharaoh necho of egypt in a battle at megiddo.

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  JosephAlward

  Lars writes,

  “...he died after he got into the other chariot and died before he got to Jerusalem”

  Alward responds:

  Lars thinks that Josiah actually died on the road somewhere BETWEEN Megiddo and Jerusalem, but that’s nonsense; the order of events in Kings is unambiguous: The slaying came first, putting him in the chariot at Megiddo came second, and the trip from Megiddo to Jerusalem came third. Readers can confirm this for themselves; here is the relevant passage:

  “...and he slew him AT Megiddo…And his servants carried him in a chariot dead FROM Megiddo, and brought him to Jerusalem” (2 Kings 23:29-30)

  The verse above speaks for itself, and loudly against Lars. If it were true, as Lars hopes, that the Kings author wanted his readers to believe that Josiah died somewhere BETWEEN Megiddo and Jerusalem, he would have said that Josiah died on the road between Megiddo and Jerusalem; but that's not what the Kings author said at all.

  The kings author said that that Josiah was carried dead FROM Megiddo. To be carried dead FROM a place, one would already have to be dead AT that place. That is EXACTLY what the author said happened: Josiah was carried dead FROM Megiddo because he was killed AT Megiddo.

  Thus, it is impossible for one to believe that the Kings author wanted us to believe that Josiah died on the road between Megiddo and Jerusalem, as Lars contends, and once again we see that Lars is wrong.

  Lar’s embarrassing attempt to twist the Kings author's words away from their plain meaning illustrates the shamelessness with which the die-hard inerrantist will debate questions of inerrancy. Fortunately, virtually everyone on this forum can see this clearly.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 
  17

  Did Jesus Teach Parents Should be Honored?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  matthew says that jesus tells his disciples to "honor your father and mother" (matt 19:19), but luke thinks that jesus requires his followers to hate their parents, "whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother...cannot be my disciple.

  " (luke 14.26) .

  couldn't god find a way for one to be a disciple of jesus without having to hate one's parents?

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  JosephAlward

  Hillary wrote, "It just seems to me, perhaps mistakenly, that you are engaged in a soul-saving, or at least saving humanity from ‘mindless beliefs’, with just about the same vigor that evangelical Christians do"

  Hillary,

  Thank you for your perceptive and very well-written post. I understand better now what you were saying, and I agree with the statement above.

  Regards,

  Joe

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
• 
  17

  Did Jesus Teach Parents Should be Honored?

  by JosephAlward in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  matthew says that jesus tells his disciples to "honor your father and mother" (matt 19:19), but luke thinks that jesus requires his followers to hate their parents, "whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother...cannot be my disciple.

  " (luke 14.26) .

  couldn't god find a way for one to be a disciple of jesus without having to hate one's parents?

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  JosephAlward

  Having opinions doesn't qualify as a "belief system," I think. If you believe that I am working with a belief system, then you must likewise believe that every human on the planet is also. I think what you're speaking of is that which is associated with the acceptance of life-changing, or life-governing teachings which are unsupported by evidence. Belief that one is a god, or a prophet, or anointed, and the basing of one's life on that belief, is an example of a belief system. Belief that many of the stories in the Bible are not true doesn't qualify as a "system" in the sense most people accept.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
  http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html