Schizm, You said: It would be unreasonable to think that they ate of all the other trees, but then neglected to eat of a tree that had the distinction of being called the "tree of LIFE". Not only is it not unreasonable, I gave a reason why it is very reasonable. What is your proof? We already know your opinion but you have not provided evidence for your opinion. Where does it say, “they ate of all the other trees.” They only had permission to eat of all the other trees, but you have no idea how many trees are involved or if they got around to them all. They may have had a few they liked very much and did not shop around as you imply. You said: Too, the fact that the tree of life was located, not on the outskirts of the garden but right in the very middle of the garden, made it impossible to be overlooked. So where was the tree of the knowledge of good and bad located? Next to it perhaps? Or maybe right outside their cave where it was easy to get to? Adam knew exactly where it was as did Eve. That is something we know for sure. 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Where did Eve say it was? The same place the tree of life was. How about that? Right in the very middle of the garden, made it impossible to be overlooked as you said. Go figure? Not much room for error was there? Joseph
JosephMalik
JoinedPosts by JosephMalik
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137
Franz' statement is outrageously unreasonable!
by Schizm ineternal life on earth?
god told the first human couple their destiny if they disobeyed.
he did not discuss their eternal future if they obeyed.
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137
Franz' statement is outrageously unreasonable!
by Schizm ineternal life on earth?
god told the first human couple their destiny if they disobeyed.
he did not discuss their eternal future if they obeyed.
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JosephMalik
I had company yesterday and was not able to follow this thread but here are a few comments. What was the situation at the time? What do we know and what did Adam know? If we can establish a foundation for our views then hopefully a logical conclusion can be reached. The situation: There was the first man (Gen 2:7 and 2:15) and eventually a woman living in a garden. They had instructions from God to tend to it. (Gen 2:16-17) There was a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good and bad in the center of this Garden, and my guess is that both trees were in the center of it as they are both described together (Gen 2:9). What did Adam know?: He was permitted to eat from any tree except the forbidden tree the tree of knowledge of good and bad, from a tree located in the center of this garden. (Gen 2:17) Adam and Eve needed to know good and bad of course and we should not conclude that permission would never be given to them to gain it or eat from this tree. But there is a right way (with guidance) and a wrong way (in rebellion). Adam took the wrong way and suffered the consequences that result. We are not told that Adam was aware of the existence of the tree of life possibly growing close or even next to it. So are we to think that Adam would have attempted to eat any fruit growing around this forbidden tree? Would you take a chance like that? How far would any of us go in tempting a fate such as death? We also know that death would not have occurred for Adam or Eve even after such Sin if they could eat from the tree of life. So Adam and Eve were created mortal like the animals around them. Their perfection was in the fact they were without sin or in a state of grace if I can put it that way. We should be able to see this much. This tree symbolized immortality, something intended for them but not achieved by them or the rest of humanity. This is something lost to humanity that or Lord gained back and will restore to us in the future Kingdom. I can go on and on like this but this should be enough. You all can come to your own conclusions but by following a line of reasonable thought, visible error or wrong thinking can be weeded out. The result would be a supportable view that would not get into extremes. I see this account as an allegory or over simplification of what actually took place but it was intended to be understood literally as this saves time and effort in explaining why things are the way they are. And it also explains how and why such an extreme solution to this problem became necessary. The solution is also included in these prophetic texts so it is all here for anyone that wants to see. These are root texts folks and if we have our feet firmly planted in them we will understand the rest of scripture and not deviate to the extremes we see today. Joseph
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137
Franz' statement is outrageously unreasonable!
by Schizm ineternal life on earth?
god told the first human couple their destiny if they disobeyed.
he did not discuss their eternal future if they obeyed.
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JosephMalik
That God told Adam and Eve they would "positively die" upon eating the forbidden fruit does not conclusively prove that he intended they live forever. Confession, Perhaps this is because you are not looking at the entire picture. Such proof if that is we choose to call it should include the tree of life, a reality visible and readily available to Adam and Eve at this same time. What would such a tree do for them? 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Not just Adam and Eve but anyone else, their children for example could eat from this tree and live forever. This is given as the reason why the Cherubims prevented them access to this tree of life at least for the length of time it existed on this earth. Now regarding what I assume is Franz’s statement: He did not discuss their eternal future if they obeyed. I wonder how he knows this? Did the scriptures record every instruction given to Adam? What it did record was the only restriction given to Adam regarding the forbidden tree in the center of the Garden. The tree of life was also in this Garden as part of God’s plan for them. Therefore even if they did not realize how important this tree of life was they soon learned about it since they had permission to eat from it and thus fulfill God’s plan for them to live forever. This plan is scripturally established in such texts and we can only guess that Adam did not know about it or was depending on it to protect him when he ate? Now I understand that Franz does reject this and believes in going to heaven as so many do today. But he is free to discuss his views of such immortal life here on earth or elsewhere if he so chooses. Joseph
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Why did Jesus not mention the 144,000?
by truthseeker inif anyone can answer this i would be grateful.. jesus' kindom message was, "repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.
" i presume that at this time, everyone who became a disciple of christ had the hope of going to heaven.
more than likely, there would have been more than 144,000 disciples by the time revelation was written.
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JosephMalik
you raise interesting points, but I ask, "What is the Kingdom of God"? What would the average disciple have understood about this Kingdom? What did he think it meant? Truthseeker, The Kingdom of God is just what it says. A Kingdom, which is a government or heavens as such governments are often called in scripture. This is a government God authorizes and supports. It is likened to the continuation of the throne of David and the disciples understood it would be established here on earth. Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: After all the training our Lord gave his disciples and after forty more days of such training concerning this Kingdom of God what did they understand about it? Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Yes, the Kingdom to Israel. A earthly human kingdom ruled by men and in this case with Christ himself as King. They had the kingdom pegged right but the time of its restoration wrong, that’s all. Truthseeker: I am sick and tired of praying for the Kingdom - I mean, how many billions of prayers are needed? Really, all things should have happened on earth within a few decades of Christ's death? How can it be said that Jesus commented, "I am coming quickly" when we're still waiting for the Kingdom? This kingdom is never farther away from anyone than Death itself. But I understand how you feel. The time that has passed is really not a long time in comparison to earth’s human history. And this time has not come because not all the Church (the saints) are sealed yet. It can use more truthseekers. Joseph
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Why did Jesus not mention the 144,000?
by truthseeker inif anyone can answer this i would be grateful.. jesus' kindom message was, "repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.
" i presume that at this time, everyone who became a disciple of christ had the hope of going to heaven.
more than likely, there would have been more than 144,000 disciples by the time revelation was written.
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JosephMalik
Jesus' Kindom message was, "Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." I presume that at this time, everyone who became a disciple of Christ had the hope of going to heaven. Truthseeker, The hope was not going to heaven. The hope was being part of this kingdom of heaven or Kingdom of God. Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. You will find Kingdom or Heaven and God used interchangeably since this phrase was never intended to mean a location other than earth. And the disciples themselves always believed this location to be here on earth. Truthseeker: More than likely, there would have been more than 144,000 disciples by the time Revelation was written. My question is, what is the status and destination for any disciple who's student ID is over 144,000? Are they part of the heavenly group mentioned below in Rev 7:9? The number is symbolic of the Church, at least that part of this Church that would not be expelled for being evil slaves at that time. The destination for any such disciple is here on earth through resurrection or being changed. What you see in the Revelation is a vision, a pictorial representation of this kingdom as in a drama or dream. Yes we see robes, palm branches and select humans in this vision because it deals with mankind (not spirit kind) in a future human and earthly Kingdom. What is being illustrated in this vision is the Church (the 144000 with its Jewish origins consisting also of Gentiles spliced in) and a great multitude existing together in the same place and at the same time. Thus salvation with assistance such Church will provide is offered to all mankind that for one reason or another is found worthy of entry into this Kingdom promised in scripture.
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JosephMalik
It would be after sundown at the beginning of Nisan 14th...am I correct? TopHat, This is why the WT has so much trouble making the facts fit. Such a conclusion does not agree with the texts. They make all sorts of excuses like this and eat a meal at sundown and allow no time for the sacrifice of thousands of animals and cooking the meal. Such a date change can only take place in the very late hours after the sun goes down. Ex 12:6 And it shall be for you to keep until the fourteenth day of this month. And all the assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it between the evenings. It would be against this Law to sacrifice the animals on the thirteenth period. The fourteenth was a day or Preparation and it took much of that day just to get the all leaven out of the house and get the meal ready. Ex 12:13 And the blood shall be a sign to you, on the houses where you are. And I will see the blood, and I will pass over you. And the plague shall not be on you to destroy, when I strike in the land of Egypt. 14 And the day shall be a memorial for you. And you shall celebrate it as a feast to Jehovah, for your generations. You shall celebrate it as a law forever. 15 You shall eat unleavened bread seven days. Indeed, on the first day you shall cause leaven to cease from your houses. For anyone eating anything leavened, that soul shall be cut off from Israel, from the first day until the seventh day. So leaven would not be removed until this 14 th day and Passover would be from the evening of this 14 th (start of 15 th ) to the evening of the 21 st (start of 22 nd ). Seven full days of Passover according to LAW. Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. Y es, the Passover was a feast of seven days not one day as most were taught. So when do Jews who should know what this all means observe this Passover? In the evening of the 14 th when the date changes to the 15 th . And did you know that there is another day of Preparation on the 20 th day of Passover. Did the WT ever tell you that? The first and last days of Passover were always Sabbath and our Lord was taken prisoner on such a Sabbath. Therefore it is not possible for Him (scripturally impossible) to have been executed the next afternoon as it was still Sabbath. The next day of Preparation (earliest possibility) was 6 days later but still Passover. What about the US navy. They have Jews in their ranks? So what do they say at: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/passover.html Passover begins on the same liturgical date, Nisan 15, each year. So either the US Navy is wrong or the WT is wrong? Which is it? Jewish sources of course agree with the US navy. Just Google Passover. Now pay attention and you should be able to see how the WT dances around all this to justify their doctrines and their domination over your lives. Will you follow them all the way to the grave? Joseph
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Adam 4000 BC or 5500 BC?
by greendawn inthe wts always propagates the idea that adam was created around 4000 bc and thus the world is 6000 years old and based on this they had set up the 1975 armageddon fiasco where many dubs got ripped off.
what they never say is that this dating is based on the hebrew masoretic text, there is however an older version of the old testament "the greek translation of the seventy" which for all we know may be the correct one and which makes mankind 7500 years old with adam created around 5500 bc.
not only this agrees better agrees with archaeological discoveries but it was also used by luke to write jesus's genealogy in his gospel.
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JosephMalik
The creative days were epochs, descriptive of major milestones in Earths preparation. No one knows how long each one was and it is most unlikely that they were of equal length. Why should they? In scripture 7 days can be called a day. The word is context dependent. Who makes the rules? This seventh day will also be of unknown length sufficient for the purpose designated for it. But it is interesting to see all the theorists like the WT dividing up something they know nothing about and predict events still in the future.
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JosephMalik
vitty,
They are pulled down about it and choose to ignore it. Dare question them you will find out how they get away with their lies.
Joseph
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In your personal opinion...
by Honesty inwhat do you understand it takes for a person to have everlasting life?
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JosephMalik
3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. JH, This is another way, a much better way in fact to gain everlasting life but not the only way at least not this side of the promised Kingdom. For many this knowledge will take place after they are resurrected. Joseph
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In your personal opinion...
by Honesty inwhat do you understand it takes for a person to have everlasting life?
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JosephMalik
Honesty,
Human decency.
Joseph