JosephMalik

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Posts by JosephMalik

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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

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  JosephMalik

  Gumby, You did not quote me. You said: So Jesus is god over mankind and god is god over the universe apart from the earth eh? Where did I say “is god over the universe apart from the earth? Nowhere! Yes we have two creators and most likely many more not detailed in the texts. How the animals came into existence is not detailed the way mankind is. But we only have one God that authorized such creators to perform such tasks. We only have one God responsible for all creation regardless of how it was accomplished. No you did not quote me or paraphrase me here as you claim and you are wrong in saying you did as shown. Joseph
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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

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  JosephMalik

  So lets stick to what Colossians says at 1:16: all created things includes those in the heavens and on earth, the visible and invisible. MS, Yes, lets stick to it but read it in the Jewish context in which it was written and not current interpretation many like you hold. What do you get then? The heavens then become the ruling classes and the earth becomes the ruled. The words en and epi are just as easily translated inward towards mankind and such rulers can be both near (visible) and far away (invisible as in Rome). They have redemption by the blood of Christ (4 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins) just like the Church included in the next few verses. Nothing off world is being discussed here. The problem is not with such texts. The problem is with your pre-conceived doctrinal position and the desperate attempt you made here to support it. Joseph
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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  JosephMalik

  So Jesus is god over mankind and god is god over the universe apart from the earth eh? Gumby, You are another one that keeps changing what I say. Those that cannot respond alter or ridicule to discredit as you have done here. Joseph
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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

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  JosephMalik

  Sorry, wrong again little toe. You do not understand terms and their use either I see. God is also used as a designatin of authority. It was used by men and others such as the Kings of Isreal in scripture without contadiction.

  Joseph
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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

  1. 
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  JosephMalik

  Hellrider, That God created man and is given the credit for all creation is not in question. This does not mean that certain features of such creation were not reduced to specific tasks and given to others like the Word to perform in His name. Genesis does not go into such detail other than to indicate that others were also involved but John goes a bit further. He deals with the beginning of the human race over which this Word would be God. He details how authority from the God that this Word was with was transferred to this Word to create such humanity in His name. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. This is the beginning John is now focused on, mankind in all its complexity. Paul does basically the same thing in Col. 1:16. He is not discussing the universe or anything else not even the animals that have life. You cannot now run to Genesis or Isaiah or anywhere else in an attempt to move John’s introduction in time and/or function as you do in this thread. They do not consider human creation in this minute detail. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Not even the animals are being considered here by John. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Do animals become sons of God also? Do inanimate objects become sons of God? No! Such things are not under discussion.

  14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The Word became human to redeem the human creation for which this Word was personally responsible and over which he was God and literal creator. This Word was chosen by God as Savior to such humanity we learn later in scripture since he created such mankind in the first place, was qualified for the task, and could perform the resurrections that would result as a consequence. Joseph
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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  JosephMalik

  Why does "all things" only mean the human race? Where is that in the text? Hellrider, 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Who knew him not? The planet? The trees? The animals? The people? Yes, the very ones that were made by him? What do you have to show? Nothing! That is all that you have offered so far. Joseph
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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

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• 

  JosephMalik

  John's opening echoes Genesis (Gen 1:1), but whereas Genesis refers to the God's activity at the beginning of creation, here we learn of jesus who existed before creation took place. In the beginning the Word already was. So we actually start before the beginning, outside of time and space in eternity.

  Gumby,

  Wrong again Gumby. John was discussing the beginning of the creation of the human race (the world) when he introduced the Word. He did not go back in time to the place you say. Show me where he was talking about planets, stars and such things outside of time and space in eternity and you may have a point but you cannot do that because your assumption is wrong. You talk about deity like you know what it means but cannot explain it scripturally. Yet you accuse me of taking texts out of context and being dub influenced, what a joke.

  Joseph
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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

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  JosephMalik

  Why insist that Paul could not have shared such a concept?

  Leolaia,

  Simple. Paul fought with such Jews in all the congregations he serviced. He had revelations directly from our Lord in much the same way that John did. Paul's views would threfore be in context with scripture on the Kingdom and not in harmony with Jewish tradition.

  Joseph
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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  JosephMalik

  John Day has noted that Deutero-Isaiah is engaged in a polemic against the view of God in Genesis 1. God alone created the heavens and earth, so there was no "us" and "our". Leolaia, This much is true and supported scripturally. It is only when specific things are being discussed apart from such heavens and earth that others are involved. Who and how many and where we do not know other than the one identified as the Word. Leolaia reference: He says that God does not get tired, which recalls God resting on the seventh day. This is also true, the problem is the way the text is interpreted. No further creation is authorized for this seventh day. So animals go extinct. The earth and everything upon it must prove itself before anything else is done to sustain it further. That was the plan. Leolaia reference: He says that God does not have an image, which goes against the claim that man is made in his image, etc. etc. Again the problem is the way the text is interpreted. Love, justice, “ and let them have dominion over ” with such responsibility are enough to satisfy the text. Adam and Eve were the heavens of their time and failed. But there was still time left to correct matters and prove the creation in the day of rest allotted to it. Joseph
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  221

  Was Jesus the first creation.

  by ajie in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  as i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  JosephMalik

  According to the Jewish notion there were three heavens, The firmament, as "fowls of the heaven," "The heaven of heavens," or "the third heaven," Yet you assume....even after you stated there are various jewish interpretations of heaven, it's talking of the earthly Roman Government. Gumby, Who’s Jewish notion? Not Paul’s! Since you do not show any of this scripturally your argument is baseless. Do you know what deity is? Can you show scripturally what it means exactly? When you do then we have a basis for discussion. Deity only appears in scripture a few times so this should be real easy. The ball is in your court Gumby, have at it. Let everyone see that you know what your talking about and are qualfied to be critical of the authors of this sacred text. Joseph