Posts by JosephMalik

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

There are different views on the Trinity. But right now we are discussing the divinity of Christ, not the Holy Spirit.

Lovelylil,

Exactly and divinity does not mean Trinity. Other than meaning something like non-human or someone superior in power to us or our service to God no one realy know what divinity really means. It is used in a scary way most of the time or to make people think they are dumb. We see it used improperly so much when it actually appears only some three times in scripture on the nature of God and Christ who is simply like Him and who cannot be depicted by artwork. The three texts in question here are also translated as Godhead. There is a lot about divinity, divination (mostly bad stuff) and very little else of value. It is not a magic word that explains what you are teaching. And it does not mean that Jesus is God.

Joseph

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

would not the Epistles of John or the Gospel of John be more suited to such?

Slappy,

Of course there are many sources and I did not depend on this one. It was for Lovelylil that I stayed with this text. Not everyone in Phlippi were Jews who knew there was only one God (not a trinity that made up God) or understood the words used like the Jews did. Lovelylil some of you must have noticed did not understand it like Trinitarians do so she was more like the Gentiles among them that Paul also tried to address. After all I wrote Beyond Trinitarianism of over 60 pages and covered the subject far more througoughly in it. No one knows the nature or form of God and cannot define it in words or by artwork. They cannot even do this for the angels with similar nature or form. That is why so many different applications of words have made that only intended to simplify what is not comprehend able to us yet. That is why such words can be used of man and yet never reveal what the image of God really is. Is God a human? No! Still such words can be applied to us both. They never were intended to be used as detail. We should not make so much of them as they were only intended to briefly describe what happened and why. What was not said is very important and I brought this out to Lovelylil. Jews did not have to be convinced but the Gentiles did. Just a simple exercise in reasonable thinking is all Paul was doing there.

Joseph

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

The Apostle Paul said what he said, you cannot change it because it does not fit into your theology. He said Jesus was in the nature God, but did not try to hold onto his equality with God. He is stating Jesus was (and in fact still is) equal in nature to God.

Lovelylik,

And what theology is that? Paul did not say that Christ was God. You do. And you do it by mis-interpreting the meaning of words. I do not. Equality is not identity. It is that simple. And I did not ignore the rest of his comments that explain what he was teaching

Joseph

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

Paul is also stating that Jesus being "in the form of God" meant he had "equality with God" - phillipians 2:6

This is the fact that keeps escaping you. The point of Phillipians 2 is that Paul says Jesus did no try to hold onto his equality with God but gave it up to take on a lower form or nature and humble himself to death on the cross for us.

Lovelylil,

Now you are discussing the difference between human and non-human nature which was also a consideration in the texts. But as two separate Beings we did not have two Beings or Persons that equaled one God. One such Being took orders from the other one and was not equal in every sense of the word nor did they have to be of equal size. And as stated, they were not alone but there were others. From all such others, only this one was chosen for the task of creating and redeeming mankind. Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And this other one had a name or title. He was also called the WORD. Not the Son but the Word. This Word did not become the only begotten Son of God until He became flesh.

Joseph

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

where water can be a liquid, solid and gas at the same time.

Sacolton,

No it cannot. In the same general location perhaps but not at the same time.

Joseph

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

I need to correct you and your understanding of the term "form of God", that you believe merely means Christ was like God in that he was in an invisible or angelic "form". But in its context, phillipians 2 is clearly stating something more than that is meant by the word "form". So Paul himself is saying being "in the form of God" literally means Christ had "equality with God".

Lovelylil,

In context Paul is saying that Christ and God are separate and distinct Beings. Some similarities yes but this does not mean that other Son's of God not discussed did not have similar similarities. There was even one such Being that wanted to steal such equality not mentioned here. The verse is teaching attitude as I brought out, an attitude that we should also understand and should share as separate Beings. Nothing in the verses teach equal identity of Being and I am not the one that needed such correction.

Joseph

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

IssacAustin,

Doesn't matter. It is identity that is being discussed here not oneness. Wrong application to prove this point.

Joseph

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

IssacAustin,

Simply positional? On the contrary, completely separate Beings, individuals that in the case of husband and wife are not even related to each other by flesh. Words do not an argument make, especially something as unscriptural and out of context as this.

Joseph

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

I am not in any way saying that Jesus is equal in position to the father. Obviously a Father is greater than the Son. But this "greater" has to do with position only, not nature.

In Phillipians 2:5-8, the Apostle Paul states the same thing I am stating, that in nature, Jesus is God;

Lillly,

What is the nature of the Angels? Do you know? I am talking about the non-human ones He used and even Satan. You have a theory that is translation dependent and also not-trinitarian as well. But the verse is not really about such nature which such others also shared but was about their attitude and our attitude. Read it again: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the formof God, thought it notrobberyto be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So is Jesus God according to Paul? No! The position of Jesus under discussion is exalted. Humanity will bow and worship him as Lord. But the glory for all this, that is God the Father's not Christ’s. Jesus is not God according to Paul.

You said: One more thing. If you are trying to say that Jesus posesses Divinity but is not the true God of the old Testament, come in the flesh, then he must be a false God. Because the bible is clear there is only one true God and he created all things. Jesus cannot be 'a god" unless he is a false god.

I already explained how the word God is used in scripture. You apply it randomly like most others do. The result is thinking like "he must be a false God" or "cannot be a god unless" when all we have to do is read the texts for ourselves. And it has already be shown how angels appeared in God’s name or otherwise functioned in His behalf. The text used here in Phillipians teach this as well. So when an OT verse says: I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior does this mean that this savior can not delegate the way He did at such other times? No! For Paul just said of the WORD that came to be Christ: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: God appreciated what this Christ did and exalted him. Jesus was not God according to Paul. When compared directly together Paul taught that: 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Yes in this context Jesus is our Lord not God.

Joseph

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

JosephMalik

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So the Son made all things.

IssacAustin,

No, the Son did not make all things like the spelling universe suggests in this translation. It is the world of mankind under discussion our forefathers and the prophets and not the universe. This is why the AV puts it this way: 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; All things is contextual just like the word God and many other words are. We should not add to them something not being discussed in the texts.

Then based upon this translation you say: sustaining all things by his powerful word. Who sustains the universe?

Christ did not come to earth to sustain the universe. Where is the verse discussing the universe you jumped to so you can use unrelated texts? Nowhere! It is still discussing the forefathers and the prophets mentioned in verse one who were messengers (also translated as angels) to the Jews and says: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Such forefathers and prophets never attained this inheritance or excellent name. Such forefathers were never begotten by God. All we have to do is read the text to get its meaning. John put it this way: John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joseph